I agree. I don't see any reason why we couldn't record all 100% of foreign civilian communications if we apply ourselves. They all travel on our networks anyway.

7/1/2013 8:59:57 AM

You agree with what? I didn't make any assertions.

7/1/2013 9:07:08 AM

Quote :

"the scale of foreign spying is what should be giving Americans heartburn"

And you're absolutely right. We're not living up to our capabilities. There's no excuse for not spying on every Chinese individual's communications when we clearly have the technology and resources to do so. It's the only way to ensure our safety. I see no reason to bug Saudi Arabia or Israel though. They're our friends and allies.

7/1/2013 9:13:44 AM

Quote :

"So the scale of foreign spying is what should be giving Americans heartburn? Why, exactly?"

The scale and reach, yes

7/1/2013 9:23:01 AM

implied "Neither"...

Quote :

"The NSA spying on them nor the manner in which they are doing it is going to kill any trade deal."

Yeah, because they didn't know we were doing it.

Hell, by that logic there's nothing wrong with shoplifting as long as you don't get caught.

7/1/2013 9:25:08 AM

It doesn't matter if they know or not. They are powerless to oppose us. We have the biggest military ever and scores of young men eager to die to defend our right to spy on the world.

7/1/2013 9:29:28 AM

(on the previous page where I said "inside 8 embassies", I'm pretty sure I meant to type "38")

7/1/2013 9:45:24 AM

@smc: you conveniently left off the question mark.

Quote :

"The scale and reach, yes"

So what? A little spying is okay but a lot is bad?



[Edited on July 1, 2013 at 9:57 AM. Reason : .]

7/1/2013 9:56:19 AM

yes

7/1/2013 9:58:40 AM

Oh ok. You convinced me.

7/1/2013 10:03:48 AM

Quote :

"Personally I think this is great. Dont want to sound like smc, but fuck the government in this particular case."

7/1/2013 10:35:57 AM

interesting/sickening how people on here and millions of other americans are ok with the US spying on citizens of other countries living outside the US, but the minute they found out somebody was compromising their privacy, they would go shoot up a few people, figuratively.

i guess humans are not equal... americans >>> non-americans

7/1/2013 10:48:55 AM

You're just jealous you can't spy on your subjects as easily as we can. But don't worry, we'll sell your leaders our old hardware soon. Consider this whole incident to be a giant advertisement for American networking technology.

[Edited on July 1, 2013 at 11:09 AM. Reason : .]

7/1/2013 10:56:38 AM

If I were Snowden, I would expose all forms of domestic spying, regardless of the situation that I currently find myself.

The amount of international spying that I would expose would depend entirely on the expediency of my asylum request, however.

7/1/2013 12:05:31 PM

but I guess that would just make me a sad wittle narcissist and twaitor....baww....


political transparency hurts my feewings....

[Edited on July 1, 2013 at 12:08 PM. Reason : ]

7/1/2013 12:07:56 PM

Maybe since so much of the US's international spying activities have been exposed we can talk all the other nations of the world into exposing their operations too. You know, for political transparency's sake.

[Edited on July 1, 2013 at 12:15 PM. Reason : .]

7/1/2013 12:13:02 PM

fine by me.


I wonder, what usable intelligence can possibly be gathered by listening to an entire nation's phone calls?


Oh wait, those kinds of questions are outside of the boundaries of debate. We should go back to discussing whether or not Snowden is a narcissist and defector with a hoebag girlfriend. Any meaningful discussion of the role of government in international affairs should rightfully be met with scorn and derision!

7/1/2013 12:19:01 PM

Quote :

"Oh ok. You convinced me."

well good, you were being intentionally obtuse so I wasn't trying to but I'm glad I did anyways

[Edited on July 1, 2013 at 12:21 PM. Reason : .]

7/1/2013 12:19:26 PM

More PRISM slides released

http://rt.com/usa/nsa-prism-slides-surveillance-435/

Greenwald on ‘coming’ leak: NSA can obtain 1bn cell phone calls a day, store them and listen

Quote :

"While he underlined that the NSA are not necessarily listening in on the full billion calls, he pointed out their capability to do so and the lack of accountability with “virtually no safeguards” which the NSA were being held to. The Guardian journalist made hints that he was sitting on further details of the NSA’s billion-call backlog, which he’d keep under wraps until the documents full publication, which he said was “coming soon.” "

http://rt.com/usa/nsa-greenwald-call-store-427/

[Edited on July 1, 2013 at 12:22 PM. Reason : looks like I'm late to the game.]

7/1/2013 12:20:58 PM

Quote :

"you were being intentionally obtuse"

Not at all. I'd honestly like to hear how you justify a statement that some spying is okay but lots of spying is not. How do you distinguish "some" from "lots"? And if you can actually quantify the difference, what makes that 40 millionth intercept (or whatever) acceptable but 40 millionth + 1 unacceptable?

Quote :

"Oh wait, those kinds of questions are outside of the boundaries of debate. We should go back to discussing whether or not Snowden is a narcissist and defector with a hoebag girlfriend. Any meaningful discussion of the role of government in international affairs should rightfully be met with scorn and derision!"

I have yet to even mention him.

[Edited on July 1, 2013 at 12:48 PM. Reason : .]

7/1/2013 12:38:22 PM

no thanks

7/1/2013 12:41:53 PM

So you're full of shit. Got it.

7/1/2013 12:48:55 PM

nope. my point is very clear, I don't feel the need to further respond. especially to a vague question.

7/1/2013 12:52:54 PM

No, your "point" was ill-conceived, poorly expressed and unjustifiable. Your concern over the "scale and reach" of the NSA's foreign spying rings hollow when you refuse to clarify your position or answer my straight forward question.

7/1/2013 12:57:50 PM

My position is clear, from this point forward I assume that you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Thanks.

7/1/2013 1:10:59 PM

Yes, your position is clear. Unfortunately for you and everyone else, you can't muster a defense for it. Thanks anyway.

7/1/2013 1:22:10 PM

I don't think you understand the scale of this, we are intercepting a half a Billion German phone calls each month. I don't think many people are particularly surprised that we have taps and bugs in 38 embassies (including allies) as well as inside an encrypted fax machine in the EU embassy, but the scale and reach of this is a big deal. German, French, and British citizens are not going to be okay with this. On a single day, January 7th, the NSA collected 60 million communication connections of German citizens (including phone calls, emails, text messages, and chat logs). Germany has about 80 million citizens. This is a big deal; while most people recognize that we spy on our allies, probably not many thought we did it on this scale.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/nsa-leaks-us-bugging-european-allies
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/06/30/the-nsas-surveillance-activity-snags-500-million-german-communications-connections-each-month/

7/1/2013 1:25:54 PM

Thanks but I read the previous page already.

And i got it. The scale and reach should alarm me. Not sure why. But it should.

7/1/2013 1:28:16 PM

because

Quote :

" I don't think many people are particularly surprised that we have taps and bugs in 38 embassies (including allies) as well as inside an encrypted fax machine in the EU embassy, but the scale and reach of this is a big deal."

and

Quote :

"while most people recognize that we spy on our allies, probably not many thought we did it on this scale"

and

Quote :

" German, French, and British citizens are not going to be okay with this"

and

Quote :

"It will likely kill our trade deal."

7/1/2013 1:34:05 PM

and
Key US-EU trade pact under threat after more NSA spying allegations
Reports in Der Spiegel that US agencies bugged European council building 'reminiscent of cold war', says German minister
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/nsa-spying-europe-claims-us-eu-trade
and
Has NSA spying put US-EU trade deal on the rocks?
Revelations of broad US surveillance of EU offices, particularly in Germany, have angered Europe.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2013/0701/Has-NSA-spying-put-US-EU-trade-deal-on-the-rocks
and
'Furious' EU Demands Answers After New Report Of NSA Spying
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/06/30/197284754/furious-eu-demands-answers-after-new-report-of-nsa-spying

[Edited on July 1, 2013 at 1:41 PM. Reason : and]

7/1/2013 1:41:02 PM

I agree with everything you posted, it just doesn't alarm me. As has been said, that we do lots of spying in other countries shouldn't surprise anyone. Scale be damned. We collect some information or lots. When is this magical threshold of concern crossed? That's all.

^thats why we have diplomats. I apologize for not flipping my shit over some foreign spy games.

[Edited on July 1, 2013 at 1:44 PM. Reason : .]

7/1/2013 1:43:07 PM

and
Cover Story: How the NSA Targets Germany and Europe
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-documents-nsa-targeted-germany-and-eu-buildings-a-908609.html
and
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-documents-nsa-targeted-germany-and-eu-buildings-a-908609-2.html
and
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-documents-nsa-targeted-germany-and-eu-buildings-a-908609-3.html

7/1/2013 1:43:19 PM

Quote :

" it just doesn't alarm me. "

see:

Quote :

" German, French, and British citizens are not going to be okay with this. "

are you German?

7/1/2013 1:45:17 PM

I originally asked why Americans should be concerned...

7/1/2013 1:46:21 PM

well then reference all of the links about it interfering with a huge trade deal

[Edited on July 1, 2013 at 2:00 PM. Reason : troll]

7/1/2013 2:00:22 PM

Don't act so naive. Foreign leaders have to make a big stink for domestic reasons. Behind closed doors the diplomatic process will soldier on and everything will be fine. It's not like any of those countries have a leg to stand on when it comes to spying anyway. None of them can claim with a straight face that they don't do the same things. Hell, due to OUR spying, we probably know all about theirs. Diplomats gonna diplomat.

7/1/2013 2:15:06 PM

So now your claim is that everyone does this to? Germany does this to?

prove it

7/1/2013 2:19:04 PM

Yep, thats my assertion. Countries spy on other countries.

Who's trolling, bro?

7/1/2013 2:21:52 PM

Quote :

"So you're full of shit. Got it"

7/1/2013 2:32:14 PM

It's a truism. Deal with it.

7/1/2013 2:33:01 PM

Quote :

"Yes, your position is clear. Unfortunately for you and everyone else, you can't muster a defense for it. Thanks anyway."

7/1/2013 2:39:27 PM

7/1/2013 2:40:08 PM

And yet, I find the claim plausible. I would be surprised if there was no German spies abroad. Not all countries have the scope and resources we have, but I believe you can be certain they all spy.

7/1/2013 2:56:34 PM

That international spying exists is not why Germans are mad

7/1/2013 3:06:23 PM

They're naturally mad. They're an angry peoples.

Quote :

"Quote: "

Edit: forgot bold text

[Edited on July 1, 2013 at 10:42 PM. Reason : sry]

7/1/2013 10:42:11 PM

Quote :

"interesting/sickening how people on here and millions of other americans are ok with the US spying on citizens of other countries living outside the US, but the minute they found out somebody was compromising their privacy, they would go shoot up a few people, figuratively. i guess humans are not equal... americans >>> non-americans"

OEP being serious? lol, of course we don't care as much about our gov't spying on other countries. Don't be stupid.

7/2/2013 8:54:32 AM

Quote :

"of course we don't care as much about our gov't spying on other countries. Don't be stupid."

how is that stupid? holding your own country to a different standard than other countries is nationalistic garbage

7/2/2013 11:48:26 AM

It is nationalistic garbage. However, American citizens are supposed to be protected by the Bill of Rights. So while the outrage is nationalistic in nature, it is at least backed by the rule of domestic law.


The sad reality is that on the whole, Americans care more about their text message privacy than say, invading an entire region, killing their citizens, and occupying and installing democracy puppet regimes friendly to western corporate interests.

If you want to make the argument that our priorities are out of whack, go ahead. They're fucked up. You'll win that argument every time. But that doesn't make the mass and warrantless surveillance any less odious.



[Edited on July 2, 2013 at 12:17 PM. Reason : ]

7/2/2013 12:15:40 PM

It's not nationalistic garbage to expect our government to have an intelligence service in this era. There are interests abroad that mean us harm and I'm hoping my tax money goes to smart people finding about it ahead of time.

Yes, the argument can be made that our foreign policy contributes to the problem in many regards but that's pretty irrelevant at this point. The genie is out of the bottle.

7/2/2013 1:16:35 PM

It's nationalistic garbage to listen to French President Hollande call for an end to US spying on the good people of France when the French are engaged in espionage on a scale second only to the Chinese (I think the Germans still consider French espionage an even greater threat than the Chinese which is humorous given that they're EU members together).

I have no objection to the United States maintaining an intelligence service. At very minimum, you need it to keep at bay the 109 different countries that are already spying on us (many of whom are our dearest and closest allies). I would also argue that it would be irresponsible for the United States to not maintain some basic intelligence activities on nations of interest; the lack of good intel tends to make diplomacy a very difficult game.

My only objection is that thanks to the Europeans whining about this and the Guardian reporting this, they've muddied the waters by drawing focus away from the more important story of the NSA spying on its own citizens.

Plenty of fun stories on this topic:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/07/01/espionage_moi_france
http://www.france24.com/en/20130702-france-usa-spying-snowden-hollande-nsa-prism-hypocritcal

7/2/2013 2:41:00 PM