We are all beautiful butterflies; didn't you know?

10/31/2013 10:48:18 AM

I like to think I know what's best for people--lol--but specifically with other people's jobs, I think it's wise to let the people who do them decide something like this.

10/31/2013 11:11:36 AM

Quote :

"I think it's wise to let the people who do them decide something like this."

they don't get to decide though. i don't know any teachers who are satisfied with their administration and the shit that gets forced on them.

10/31/2013 11:13:30 AM

Quote :

"So public schools are as good as they were 40 years ago? That's the bar for success? Technology is accelerating, and we're still using the same schooling model that was designed to churn out factory workers."

I was mostly challenging the "schools just aren't what they used to be" sentiments. I think showing improvement over time is a pretty good bar for success, although there are other measures that are probably equally important.

I'd argue that our schools are doing an ok job of keeping up with technology, a lot of times to the detriment of more traditional subjects (unfortunate). It's a high school diploma for god sakes, not a tech school.

10/31/2013 11:13:35 AM

some would argue that high school should be more like trade school and tech school (for a large amount of the population anyway)

10/31/2013 11:40:47 AM

Introduce: stigma.

The "dumb" kids go to tech schools.

10/31/2013 11:42:46 AM

I like the idea of a class system.

10/31/2013 1:05:49 PM

That's basically what Germany does; identifies and encourages obvious strengths from an early age.

There is no stigma there concerning those who go to schools we would call "trade" versus a University.

Here apparently that makes you some untouchable serf, but that system wouldn't happen here anyway because:

You can't quash the dreams of someone who wants to make a living by *insert useless major here* or *major that might be marketable but they're no good at.*

[Edited on October 31, 2013 at 1:20 PM. Reason : -]

10/31/2013 1:19:32 PM

Well no one squashes those people's dreams bc they feed universities with cash.

Plenty of people focus on trades in this country it just isnt forced in the way Germany does (it would be branded socislism in two seconds if set up here). My cousin maintains the coolant system in a large hotel and makes a good amount of money. IMO this is better than sitting in a cubicle dealing with upper management.

10/31/2013 1:36:09 PM

Quote :

"Graduation rates, on the whole, are rising."

what does that prove? that's a shitty metric to use for determining effectiveness of an educational institution.

10/31/2013 2:24:12 PM

You musta missed the entire rest of my post where I mentioned that test scores are rising. So a higher graduation rate indicates we have more people finishing school and on average they are doing better on assessments than any previous generation. To me, that says, on average, our public schools are doing better than they ever have.

Quote :

"(it would be branded socislism in two seconds if set up here)."

Weren't "trade schools" originally a socialist idea, more or less? I mean they were really closely associated with 19th century unions right? I know the idea of apprenticeships, etc has been around for a long time so you can't exactly credit them with creating the concept but they were definitely big proponents.

10/31/2013 2:52:05 PM

Im saying if we set up the German system here the Tea Party would burn everything to the ground.

10/31/2013 2:57:47 PM

Quote :

"what does that prove? that's a shitty metric to use for determining effectiveness of an educational institution."

It proves that particular dumbass user promotes a certain political party's belief that everyone should have an education (no matter how worthless), and they're more concerned with patting themselves on the back instead of accepting the simple fact that there are winners and losers in life. Period.

The losers aren't even really losers in other countries, but here we have turned higher education into a popularity contest while simultaneously making sure "the dumb kids" can't earn a livable wage.

On the other hand community colleges are roaring back, and the good ones are revamping a variety of developmental classes (math) in order to reverse the damage of shitty high schools.

10/31/2013 2:58:00 PM

Quote :

"It proves that particular dumbass user promotes a certain political party's belief that everyone should have an education (no matter how worthless), and they're more concerned with patting themselves on the back instead of accepting the simple fact that there are winners and losers in life. Period."

well, a free public education, for all, is guaranteed in the NC Constitution. So if you give any credence to that document, then yes, we should be attempting to educate everyone.

Quote :

"shitty high schools."

shitty compared to what?

10/31/2013 3:12:41 PM

To expand on that - the majority of families think they are upper middle class and that their kids are snow flakes.

Your kid is not a snow flake and you are not upper middle class.

But the government is brainwashing your beautiful angel and the government is taking all your money which would make you rich!!!!!

10/31/2013 3:14:26 PM

Quote :

"shitty compared to what?"

Burkina Faso?

10/31/2013 3:26:25 PM

just so people don't think I'm bullshitting about test scores staying about the same or getting better overall:

I'm using NAEP data, which my educational research friends tell me is one of the best sources since the test has remained relatively consistent over a very long time period.

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/ltt/

Reading and Math scores over the entire length of the assessment.


Scores by Race, everyone improving.


Scores for smart kids and dumb kids have also both improved



I know all of this is off topic from the OP, but "our schools suck compared to back in my day" is just a really bad meme that I don't think has much basis in reality.

10/31/2013 5:14:36 PM

they were shit back in my day. a total joke.

10/31/2013 7:50:45 PM

Quote :

"adultswim: they don't get to decide though. i don't know any teachers who are satisfied with their administration and the shit that gets forced on them."

I know. And that seems to be a thing in every job, but it's probably worse for teachers, and it hurts children so that's no good.

10/31/2013 8:28:50 PM

the fact that kids are taking the same tests that kids took in 1971 is proof that schools suck today. we basically are educating our kids to go be successful in 1971.

10/31/2013 10:02:59 PM

Realistically with a few exceptions, retests are going to do nothing for the kids that are failing. The kids that are going to choose to study more to get a better grade are probably the kids with B's that want A's, so it's a policy for overachievers and maybe some athletes. If you flunk a test and don't care about your own education, you're not going to bother taking a retest.

Re zeros, I had a Spanish teacher in high school that for turning in an assignment would give you one point. She took x many points for every wrong answer. So if you forgot to do some of the assignment or were incredibly way off, you could receive back a grade of 1/100.

11/1/2013 10:10:13 AM

Quote :

"Plenty of people focus on trades in this country it just isnt forced in the way Germany does (it would be branded socislism in two seconds if set up here). My cousin maintains the coolant system in a large hotel and makes a good amount of money. IMO this is better than sitting in a cubicle dealing with upper management."

Elaborate on what the German system is.

Your last couple sentences are very valid. University and a desk job is not for everyone, nor should it be, otherwise you'd have a bunch of law school grads that can't find work and a bunch of openings for technical work that no one in our generation knows how to do.

11/1/2013 10:17:25 AM

I dont know exactly how it works but at around 10 you are placed in one of several paths. Depending on what path you are placed on determines if you go to trade schools or a university. The majority of this is free and run on the state level.

11/1/2013 11:11:18 AM

grade 10, not age 10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 11:13 AM. Reason : .]

11/1/2013 11:13:18 AM

I didn't read the wiki page but I'm pretty sure the ball starts rolling in a certain direction around age 10.

Edit: just read the wiki page. Secondary school starts at 10 years old, 12 in Berlin.

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 11:21 AM. Reason : Edit]

11/1/2013 11:18:48 AM

Quote :

"I dont know exactly how it works but at around 10 you are placed in one of several paths. Depending on what path you are placed on determines if you go to trade schools or a university. The majority of this is free and run on the state level."

That'd never fly here. Black preachers for starters would have a field day if the ethnic percentages didn't work out right. Germany by European standards is diverse but they're far more homogeneous than we are and therefore they can get by with a one size fits all system with little in the way of backlash. That's not even touching the differences in private school vs. public school, urban vs. suburbs vs. rural, and regional (say New York vs. Nebraska) assessments of students.

10 I think is too young, something like 14 would be better. At 14, most people are freshmen in high school. By that point in time, you can make a reasonable assessment as a neutral observer how someone is going to end up.

From what I understand of the British educational system, I think they do have placement into certain schools that if applied in the American context would be during our high school years. Reading on a largely British board though, they have a lot of complaints about their own educational system (I imagine most societies do).

Our K through 12 system and then you go to college and it's four years is so ingrained in American culture it'd be very difficult to change it (and not in the interest of the educational system to make getting the know-how to get a job take less time, that means less jobs for them).

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 12:23 PM. Reason : /]

11/1/2013 12:09:08 PM

While NYC doesn't have the best education they do have special school that students test into. It definetly screws over a lot of kids but it elevates some to places they wouldn't have access to.

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 1:33 PM. Reason : Edit]

11/1/2013 1:30:54 PM

I would use this to my advantage. Do really well and then when you meet the minimum threshold to ensure you get the grad you want, get 50s from there on.

11/1/2013 2:47:09 PM

Quote :

"While NYC doesn't have the best education they do have special school that students test into. It definetly screws over a lot of kids but it elevates some to places they wouldn't have access to. "

Stuyvesant? I read an article on it once because entry was 100% merit-based, which meant you had a ton of Asians and some whites, but incredibly few Latinos and blacks, which is what the article was about.

Wikipedia:

Quote :

"Accusations of bias in admission tests The school's skewed demographic profile and scarcity of Black and Hispanic students have often been an issue for some city administrators. Mayor John Lindsay argued that the test was culturally biased against Black and Hispanic students and sought to implement an affirmative action program.[21] However, protests by parents forced the plan to be scrapped and led to the passage of the Hecht-Calandra Act, which preserved admissions by examination only. A small number of students judged to be economically disadvantaged and who come within a few points of the cut-off score were given an extra chance to pass the test.[35] In 1996 the community activist group Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) published two reports, Secret Apartheid and Secret Apartheid II, calling the SHSAT "permanently suspect" and a "product of an institutional racism", and claiming that black and Hispanic students did not have access to proper test preparation materials.[34] Along with Schools Chancellor Rudy Crew, they began an initiative for more diversity in the city's gifted and specialized schools, in particular demanding that since only a few districts send the majority of Stuyvesant's and Bronx Science's students, that the SHSAT be suspended altogether "until the Board of Education can show that the students of each middle school in the system have had access to curricula and instruction that would prepare them for this test regardless of their color or economic status." Jesse Shapiro, Stuyvesant valedictorian, and Alan Van Dyke and Micah C. Lasher, then sophomores, published several editorials in response, and change was averted.[19][36] A number of students take preparatory courses offered by private companies such as The Princeton Review and Kaplan, in order to perform better on the SHSAT, often leaving those unable to afford such classes—often ethnic minorities—at a disadvantage. To bridge this gap and boost minority admissions, the Board of Education started the Math Science Institute in 1995,[37] a free program to prepare students for the admissions test.[38] Students attend preparatory classes through the program, now known as the Specialized High School Institute, at several schools around the city from the summer after 6th grade until the 8th grade exam. Despite these free programs, the Black and Hispanic enrollment continue to decline.[39]"

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 3:21 PM. Reason : .]

11/1/2013 3:14:47 PM

That is just one of many. It's just the most well known bc of the people that have went to it.

11/1/2013 5:43:07 PM