[Edited on January 20, 2014 at 12:44 PM. Reason : double post]

1/20/2014 12:41:58 PM

Quote :

"The link you just provided is still the Snowden table for asylum... nothing on William Binney."

oops

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/sep/15/data-whistleblower-constitutional-rights

Quote :

"If you are going to have a problem with homeland spying (and I think it's pretty reasonable that all of us do)... you don't go to Russia and China and hand over classified information regarding allies, partners, and adversaries. Instead, you would go straight to the media and say... this is what I found out and it's seriously unconstitutional."

he didn't give any exclusive information to any government. information released to news outlets is in the public domain.

1/20/2014 12:44:17 PM

You don't know that...

A man living on the fringes is a desperate man and Russia rarely deals unless you make it worth their while.

1/20/2014 1:46:06 PM

We also don't know that he's not a new lizard overlord

1/20/2014 1:49:27 PM

^The difference in argument here is:

My reasoning is tangible.

Yours is not.

Keep the cynicism on the shelf if you're going to argue.

1/20/2014 1:59:29 PM

Tangible isn't the word you're looking for. Possible, sure, but unfounded.

The fact that he is embarrassing the security theater of the US is enough for Russia to keep him around. Whether or not he's giving them extra information is complete speculation, and thus no more valid than calling him a lizard person.

1/20/2014 2:11:42 PM

What is unfounded is a man who runs to Russia calling himself a U.S. patriot... That's more than unfounded... that's bizarre.

What's also bizarre is that he is providing information to state media... also known as government branches of media... who is selective about what's worthy of reporting, and what's worthy of keeping for analysis. That includes China and Russia... who's values don't reflect what Edward Snowden is claiming, yet he fled there and is applying for asylum in other known nations who have very tough relations with the U.S.

William Binney and Edward Snowden contrast in this fashion. William Binney expressed remorse and did the right thing by his convictions, where as Snowden's actions are bizarre and do not match his crisis of conscience. Deceptively gaining usernames and passwords for access to information that he shouldn't have? Bizarre again... which tells me that he had already made up his mind about what he was doing and how he was going to do it. It's not as though he stumbled across something important and he needed to tell the world... It's more like he deceived a bunch of people, took the information, and ran to Russia as fast as he could. A concept that's difficult to understand for a lot of us is that just because they are media, does not mean they possess free speech. Their media is run by the government... and government controlled media selects the information they would like to put out and retains information as they find value in possessing it...

Unfounded is not the word you're looking for because I've just based it on his actions and not on what he was saying. What he says he's doing is the misdirection itself... What he actually does is what's questionable.

1/20/2014 3:09:22 PM

So do we just ignore him seeking asylum in places outside of Russia?

1/20/2014 3:12:56 PM

That's glancing the point...

I'm arguing that Edward Snowden is not the patriot he says he is. I'm arguing he does not possess the crisis of conscience that he says he has.

Edward Snowden is a flake and a traitor.

1/20/2014 3:18:44 PM

There is no evidence of that

and lizards have strong morals

1/20/2014 3:55:34 PM

It's not glancing the point. He didn't go to Russia BECAUSE it was Russia. Russia was his best option. What should he have done?

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/for-edward-snowden-why-russia/

Quote :

""The fact that Russia is not a friend of the United States, the fact that Russia doesn't have an extradition treaty with the United States, the fact that President Putin is not known to be close to President Obama, and the fact that President Putin is not known as somebody who can be pushed around, made Russia a logical place to consider," he said."

The story he gave to Chinese media was about China. It makes perfect sense. Had he given the story to the Guardian, China still would have known. No difference.

Quote :

"William Binney expressed remorse and did the right thing by his convictions "

Explain plz

Quote :

"Deceptively gaining usernames and passwords for access to information that he shouldn't have? Bizarre again... which tells me that he had already made up his mind about what he was doing and how he was going to do it. It's not as though he stumbled across something important and he needed to tell the world..."

I don't follow your logic. He knew what was going on, he just didn't have access to documents to prove it. Therefore, he gained access to the documents so he could release them. Of course he wasn't supposed to have them. If he didn't have them, he would just be another dude making outrageous claims. Should he have asked his supervisor for access first?

Quote :

"It's more like he deceived a bunch of people, took the information, and ran to Russia as fast as he could."

Again with the Russia thing. See above.

Quote :

"A concept that's difficult to understand for a lot of us is that just because they are media, does not mean they possess free speech. Their media is run by the government... and government controlled media selects the information they would like to put out and retains information as they find value in possessing it..."

Information which Snowden ALSO has, and can release through other outlets if state-run media chooses to withhold anything.

[Edited on January 20, 2014 at 4:05 PM. Reason : .]

1/20/2014 4:01:18 PM

Its possible that he gave up a six figure salary, his family, his girlfriend, his freedom, and put his life in danger because he wanted to be a traitor, but that's a pretty steep claim for only having loose conjecture to support it.

1/20/2014 4:05:57 PM

I guess it might not seem as steep if you support the NSA's actions.

1/20/2014 4:08:53 PM

I don't see how any American could support the NSA's actions, unless you work for the NSA.

1/21/2014 12:38:51 PM

Meet Apocalypse:

Quote :

"The time to be angry is when that war is over... not right now when so much good has come out of these extreme precautionary measures. I have yet to see or hear of someone being indicted based on evidence collected by the NSA. "

He still hasn't told us what good the NSA has provided us.

1/21/2014 1:10:01 PM

and also doesn't realize that you can never end, let alone win, a war against an idea. there will always be "terror", we shouldn't sacrifice privacy and freedoms because someone claims that sacrificing them makes it easier for the government to protect us.

1/21/2014 2:05:39 PM

^^google that shit. it was said at hearings. it's in the press. here's a starting point: NYSE

of course shitheads like you will just say "oh well that's just bullshit they say..." because you don't care for truths that don't fit your narrative

1/21/2014 9:09:51 PM

The Russian spy line of attack never made any sense.

Considering Snowden sat on this info under bush, hoping Obama would fix the problems, makes sense he truly believed the actions of the NSA were damaging.

1/22/2014 12:18:14 AM

Quote :

"^^google that shit. it was said at hearings. it's in the press. here's a starting point: NYSE of course shitheads like you will just say "oh well that's just bullshit they say..." because you don't care for truths that don't fit your narrative"

Damn son, the shithead comment seems unnecessary. I've changed my opinions here many times over the years. My "narrative" is based on what I know. If you want to change my "narrative", give me what you know.

But anyways, I googled "Has the NSA prevented any terrorist attacks"

We have the NSA here claiming 54 attacks around the world, including 13 in the US, have been prevented. Of course they have zero credibility given their track record of lying and distorting the truth.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/31/tech/web/nsa-alexander-black-hat/

And we have an independent review board that says the surveillance hasn't done anything:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-phone-record-collection-does-little-to-prevent-terrorist-attacks-group-says/2014/01/12/8aa860aa-77dd-11e3-8963-b4b654bcc9b2_story.html

Quote :

"An analysis of 225 terrorism cases inside the United States since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks has concluded that the bulk collection of phone records by the National Security Agency “has had no discernible impact on preventing acts of terrorism.” In the majority of cases, traditional law enforcement and investigative methods provided the tip or evidence to initiate the case, according to the study by the New America Foundation, a Washington-based nonprofit group."

And is backed up by a previous review board appointed by the White House itself:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-shouldnt-keep-phone-database-review-board-recommends/2013/12/18/f44fe7c0-67fd-11e3-a0b9-249bbb34602c_story.html

Quote :

"But the panel said the collection program had not proved its utility. “Our review suggests that the information contributed to terrorist investigations by the use of .?.?. telephony metadata was not essential to preventing attacks and could readily have been obtained in a timely manner using conventional [court] orders,” it said."

So again, what good has the surveillance program done? Specifics, don't give me something vague and ask me to find it myself.

1/22/2014 8:24:53 AM

54? Pfft... last I heard, the collection of 3.58 trillion emails, phone calls, and texts since 9/11 had thwarted 6.82 million terrorist attacks worldwide.

[Edited on January 22, 2014 at 9:47 AM. Reason : DO YOUR OWN HW, FIND THEM YOURSELF]

1/22/2014 9:47:24 AM

Quote :

"Officials at both the N.S.A. and the F.B.I. have said their investigations have turned up no evidence that Mr. Snowden was aided by others."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/22/world/snowden-denies-suggestions-that-he-was-a-spy-for-russia.html?_r=0

1/23/2014 9:29:35 AM

Alright guys,

So just catching up on what I've missed on this argument, I'll note some things here because as this situation unfolds, it gets a little weirder.

I don't think Edward Snowden is a spy for Russia... As I've said before, I believe he's an opportunist who seized an opening. His history is a little weird with ethical hacking classes in India which tells me he's intent was premeditated.

I've seen on here that there's a trust issue with the NSA:

You're quicker to believe a man:

Who premeditated theft of classified information, who lied to take it under false pretenses (as was investigated, he needed their username and password to fix their computer issues), and, more importantly, who took an oath and violated that oath when he took the job knowing full well what that job entailed. I don't care if he felt a crisis of conscience... I'm not compassionate toward oath breakers.

Than you are to believe the NSA:

Who so far hasn't lied... Lying isn't the NSA's business, it's acquiring information for the purposes of national security... in which they have done since the Patriot Act that everyone knew was being enacted. They may not discuss how things are done, because they don't want the enemy to learn and adapt.

Let me give you an allegory... because I know you guys aren't fighters based on your responses:

There's a concept known as "bearable pain," it's pain that you have to push through to get into a dominant position over your opponent. Your opponent may have you in such a position that if you struggle, you will feel pain and you can do two things at that point: (a) You can stop fighting due to the opponent's leverage over you in position, or (b) you can bear through the pain (maybe even sacrifice a bone or dislocate joints) in order to loosen the opponent's advantage and hold over you so that you can gain the upper hand. But the catch is, you have to bear through the pain and sacrifice something in order to secure victory.

NSA spying on it's own citizens is necessary in a time of war because of the nature of our enemy, who hides among us, uses our way of life against us... to spread a message that comes right out of the comic books... NO ONE IS SAFE. NSA spying is bearable pain... pain is not natural... just like having to give up some freedoms is not natural... but when you're in a fight, and your back is against the wall, it's amazing what the human body will fore-go and endure... to ensure it's survival.

Our enemy shows us no quarter... don't be so naive about what it takes to fight these wars. Historically, we haven't had to sacrifice pots and pans for rounds, or other, for these wars this past decade.

Al Qaeda's weapons are information and fear... and we've been compromised... and what's worse, is that there are people who put Edward Snowden on a pedestal because they are so naive about what it takes to fight this war and to ensure that our way of life is protected...

As for NSA studies from a nonprofit working group of whoever the hell they are... because I've never heard of them. You have to consider the source... They NEED to have unfiltered access from the NSA to allow them to conduct an appropriate study, and the NSA didn't give them that... so I have no idea how they came to that conclusion except to speculate... unless it's a tactic to force the NSA to respond... which means they have to compromise their methods and let everyone know how it works... to include the enemy... who will learn and adapt, in order to further terrorize us.

[Edited on January 23, 2014 at 5:57 PM. Reason : a]

1/23/2014 5:49:53 PM

Wait...we're at war? When did this happen?

[Edited on January 23, 2014 at 6:17 PM. Reason : .]

1/23/2014 6:14:56 PM

Quote :

"You're quicker to believe a man:"

also, the White Houses's own panel and an independent panel. Also the NSA and FBI.

Quote :

"Than you are to believe the NSA: Who so far hasn't lied... Lying isn't the NSA's business,"

are you trolling? they lied to congress. we know absolutely that they lied.

are you just cutting and pasting stuff? what the fuck is going on in that post?

1/23/2014 6:27:48 PM

You're on the ropes dtownral because you're method of arguing has gotten to the point where you evade stronger main points in order to attack smaller irrelevant points.

When you testify before congress before a full investigation is complete, your testimony has to be what you THINK is going on and what you THINK happened. Also known as a preliminary analysis. And if Congress asks a question that you cannot publicly answer in full because of the possible consequences of that answer, you're going to try to provide an answer that's a lot more vague until a classified hearing can be assembled. There's no lying going on. What doesn't make sense is that congress gave that authority from the Patriot Act and then calls James Clapper to explain the NSA's actions after he fulfills their mandate. If James Clapper has to take the hit and lie about "lying to Congress" because he's put on the spot, then he'll take that bullet for the nation. He's not stupid... he didn't get to his position for being stupid and he isn't naive about "bearable pain." How does anyone lie to Congress and keep their job? I would venture to say they don't.

White House has lied though. Consider that. Their habit is to find the scapegoat... "I didn't know anything about this!" Yeah... ok... whatever...

As for the FBI, I've only seen that touched lightly in the media with no details, so for now, I'll give that one to you, but it doesn't change the fact that you're glancing the point on their investigation... who's charge and mission is essentially the same as the NSA's.

With that.. I'll say this:

You're enamored that this guy who went against the system to do what you thought is the right thing... which is great... on it's surface, but his actions don't match what he says.

"Telling the truth is not a crime." And I wonder how his truth would not be a a crime. Can you imagine:

IED's on interstates? because the Boston Marathon was just a taste compared to the Middle East.

Having to re-route every time you go to work or school so that your routes are unpredictable, because I personally know Iraqis who are paralyzed with fear between choice (a) Zigg, or choice (b), Zagg.

And the prayer of hope that someone will intervene and help them out... and the despair that follows when they realize that there is no one coming.

In your terms, should Batman release his technology? Release would mean people would know it's weaknesses and how to exploit his mission, but if he kept it to himself, who personally wielded it, wouldn't that be the greater good?

We don't live like that now... you know why? Because you should be thanking these government organizations, whom you pay through taxes, to ensure your good night's rest.

[Edited on January 23, 2014 at 8:06 PM. Reason : a]

1/23/2014 8:04:41 PM

please don't be offended by this, but are you autistic?

1/23/2014 8:34:54 PM

No... I'm aware

1/23/2014 8:44:40 PM

Apocalypse has to be a troll at this point

1/24/2014 8:40:05 PM

With petabytes, and probably exabytes of data, who's to say they don't start mining it and selling bits and pieces to local municipalities. Or ISP's. Or any other legal entity that would like to have your information?

No, what they're doing isn't protection.

1/24/2014 9:05:08 PM

Not sure why you think the NSA would do that... But Google and Facebook has...

No one is upset with them it looks like...

1/26/2014 4:06:58 AM

Because Google and Facebook aren't a part of the government, and they didn't break the law in getting that data, because people gave it to them willingly? Naaah, that doesn't make any sense

1/26/2014 1:35:04 PM

New interview with Snowden

http://www.ndr.de/ratgeber/netzwelt/snowden277_page-1.html

Lots of good stuff, but I thought this was pretty crazy:

Quote :

"Q: Does the NSA spy on Siemens, on Mercedes, on other successful German companies for example, to prevail, to have the advantage of knowing what is going on in a scientific and economic world. A: I don’t want to pre-empt the editorial decisions of journalists but what I will say is there’s no question that the US is engaged in economic spying. If there’s information at Siemens that they think would be beneficial to the national interests, not the national security of the United States, they’ll go after that information and they’ll take it."

1/28/2014 7:29:39 PM

Terrible treachery

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2014/01/30-1

1/31/2014 3:25:28 PM

^ I would love to know why the government thinks that has anything to do with national security or stopping a terrorist threat. I'll go get my popcorn.

2/1/2014 9:09:49 PM

because a bunch of turrrrists live near sea level, so if we let it keep rising, we'll kill a bunch of them!

2/2/2014 7:11:11 PM

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/6/nsa-chief-google.html

EXCLUSIVE: EMAILS REVEAL CLOSE GOOGLE RELATIONSHIP WITH NSA

Quote :

"Email exchanges between National Security Agency Director Gen. Keith Alexander and Google executives Sergey Brin and Eric Schmidt suggest a far cozier working relationship between some tech firms and the U.S. government than was implied by Silicon Valley brass after last year’s revelations about NSA spying. Disclosures by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden about the agency’s vast capability for spying on Americans’ electronic communications prompted a number of tech executives whose firms cooperated with the government to insist they had done so only when compelled by a court of law. But Al Jazeera has obtained two sets of email communications dating from a year before Snowden became a household name that suggest not all cooperation was under pressure."

and lol at this

Quote :

"“Hi Keith, looking forward to seeing you next week. FYI, my best email address to use is [redacted],” Brin wrote. “The one your email went to — sergey.brin@google.com — I don’t really check.”"

5/9/2014 12:57:52 AM

Someone help me out with the FREEDOM act set to be introduced in the senate. I'm seeing some claim it's a significant reform of the NSA and others are calling it window dressing. Thoughts?

FYI our boy Richard Burr is set to become chair of the senate intelligence cmte. My understanding is there will be no support for NSA reform out of him - turn the pressure up NC.

11/13/2014 6:41:41 AM

Oh right, it's not in the news cycle right now so TSB is devoid of any opinions. I forgot how that works.

11/14/2014 9:14:49 AM

Senate republicans deny cloture to the USA FREEDOM act that would have taken some (admittedly small) steps in reigning in the NSA's bulk collection.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/11/18/mitch-mcconnell-usa-freedom-act-would-be

LETS HEAR 3 CHEERS FOR FREEDUMB!!!!

Will be interesting to see who fell where. The Congress.gov bill tracker hasn't been updated yet, but from skimming a few articles it looks like noted civil libertarian Rand Paul voted against while brain dead idiot Ted Cruz voted for it??? (still trying to confirm that latter part).

Once again, if you are interested in protecting what is left of your civil liberties, THEN YOU CANNOT VOTE REPUBLICAN!!!

11/18/2014 9:14:14 PM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/18/rand-paul-beats-ted-cruz-saves-nsa-from-reform.html

Confirmed, Ted Cruz, Mike Lee, and Sensebrenner (sp?) the only republicans to vote for it.

11/19/2014 7:41:00 AM

Harry Reid wanted to attach part of SOPA to this reform bill

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20141118/03244829175/harry-reid-wants-to-attach-part-sopa-to-surveillance-reform-bill.shtml
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/18/harry-reid-is-tight-with-the-ufc.html

11/19/2014 9:48:06 AM

^^Irritating. I would think Republicans would be all about limiting the government's ability to snoop, but NOPE.

11/19/2014 10:03:40 AM

you have a lot to learn about Republicans

11/19/2014 10:24:32 AM

I can't understand Rand Paul voting against it. I don't think he'll have any shot to get what he wants in the next 2 years. Get what you can now and issue a statement that you're glad to move the needle and don't think it went far enough. His vote may not have passed the bill, but maybe then one more defector could have been recruited.

11/19/2014 10:59:18 AM

he claims didn't want to reauthorize parts of the Patriot Act that were included, but my understanding is that this wasn't a reauthorization because those items didn't need reauthorization

the response to him is to ask when he thinks a better bill will pass in a Republican senate, because that seems unlikely

11/19/2014 11:10:50 AM

Section 215, the part of the Patriot Act that allows mass data collection expires in June. McConnell and Richard Burr have introduced legislation that woul extend the provision to 2020, and will allegedly use some procedure that would allow the bill to bypass committee, and all discussion (and possibly cloture votes too?) and come straight to the floor for a vote. Leahy and others about to introduce a compromise bill that would somehow reign in Section 215.

Stay tuned and please stop voting for Richard Burr

4/23/2015 7:41:23 AM

Burr has a hard-on for NSA spying. There's nothing that could happen that would change his mind, he just needs to be removed from that senate committee on intelligence.

4/23/2015 4:48:34 PM

I was hoping for a Jeb Bush candidacy, just to have someone who isn't fucking crazy.

Then he started cheerleading NSA mass data collection. Fuck that motherfucker, that's an instant deal breaker.

4/23/2015 11:14:29 PM

if that's a deal breaker, you are going to have to go 3rd party

4/24/2015 8:50:55 AM

Yeah, like usual, I expect it'll be (L) or abstain. I'm hoping that Rand Paul ends up being tolerable.

4/24/2015 10:13:02 AM