excuse us

coming through



thanks

[Edited on July 25, 2014 at 1:02 PM. Reason : Peace, we outta here.]

7/25/2014 1:02:23 PM

its interesting that athiests always know more about religion than the religious

7/25/2014 1:02:45 PM

could you guys please keep it down in this thread

we're trying to "venerate"



thanks

7/25/2014 1:03:22 PM

1. Yes
2. Grew up in Methodist. Been to a few Baptist. Currently I attend a Lutheran church with my wife that her family has been at their entire lives.

7/25/2014 1:14:51 PM

Quote :

"its interesting that athiests always know more about religion than the religious"

always, eh? you really DO know everything!

7/25/2014 1:38:16 PM

leave it to a misinformed christian to take a literal translation of my post

7/25/2014 1:40:05 PM

A poetic translation of a translation in a different language made two centuries removed from the year you posted it.

[Edited on July 25, 2014 at 1:42 PM. Reason : correction]

7/25/2014 1:42:09 PM

It really bugs me when atheists can't take Religion based off of its philosophical value and want to trash it.

Not believing in spirituality does not mean that you have to hate the Bible. It just simply means that you read it differently.

7/25/2014 1:58:38 PM

Quote :

"leave it to a misinformed christian to take a literal translation of my post"

oh? who did that?

big surprise, dtown got a boner mocking folks in a religion thread and threw reading comprehension out the window

7/25/2014 2:15:24 PM

lulz

7/25/2014 2:17:56 PM

Quote :

"Not believing in spirituality does not mean that you have to hate the Bible. It just simply means that you read it differently."

i grew up very religious, i don't hate the Bible and still really like the teachings of Christ. if more Christians liked the teachings of Christ I might still be religious.

There is no reason to like organized religion.

7/25/2014 2:21:52 PM

1. No
2. See #1

7/25/2014 2:24:09 PM

Quote :

"if more Christians liked the teachings of Christ I might still be religious."

that doesn't make any sense

you either believe in the bible as true or you don't and the way other people choose to interpret it or act has no bearing on that...or it shouldn't

you can't be all like "yeah, i used to think christ was the savior, but then i saw a bunch of so-called christians throwing rocks at a homeless man and now i think christ was just some dude with good ideas...but hey, maybe i'll think christ is god-come-to-earth again if i meet enough nice christians"

7/25/2014 2:28:44 PM

Quote :

"We teach only what the Bible teaches and try to follow the example of first century Christians as shown in the Bible."

I'm interested in hearing more about this. Do you just ignore the gospel of john since its believed to have been written 120-150 AD? What about Gnosticism? First century Christianity was obviously vastly different from what we know today.

7/25/2014 2:33:33 PM

^ John was not written in 120-150. There are two main dates that most people believe. An "earlier" date in the 50s-60s and a later date in the 80s-90. As far as first century church, I'm talking about the Church as talked about and described in the book of Acts

We are what most people would consider a very "conservative" church. We believe each local church should be independent to work with the local Christians and not "report" to some corporate or national church. Everything we do for worship and things we believe need to have one of three things found in the Bible 1. A direct command authorizing it 2. An example talking about it/showing it 3. A necessary inference. We try not to add to the word of God or take away from it. So we have no teachings or rules that a lot of denominations do about uniforms the preacher has to wear or requirements to become a preacher or having to stay celibate if you want to preach, etc. We have no man-made creeds or anything like that.

For some of the more popular topics:

We believe homosexuality is a sin (though we don't "hate" gay people. We teach that you hate the sin, not the sinner. So gay people can come to our church and we aren't going to berate them or anything. But we will try to educate them on what we believe and why. Homosexuality is a sin just like any other sin)

We teach on the marriage-divorce-remarriage issue that a lot of denominations don't believe or ignore

We teach that baptism by immersion is required to be saved (no infant baptism, original sin, or sprinkling baptism)

We don't use musical instruments in our singing during worship due to not being able to find any of the three conditions listed earlier regarding it. We believe there is a right way to worship as a congregation according to the Bible and not just doing things with the right intentions.

Basically we are willing to sit down and have a bible study on any topic the Bible discusses and show you why we believe/worship the way we do. If we find a way in which we are wrong in what the Bible teaches, we will change our ways.

7/25/2014 4:35:21 PM

Yes.
Episcopalian

7/25/2014 4:41:17 PM

Quote :

"that doesn't make any sense you either believe in the bible as true or you don't and the way other people choose to interpret it or act has no bearing on that...or it shouldn't you can't be all like "yeah, i used to think christ was the savior, but then i saw a bunch of so-called christians throwing rocks at a homeless man and now i think christ was just some dude with good ideas...but hey, maybe i'll think christ is god-come-to-earth again if i meet enough nice christians" "

Christ's message was all about love and acceptance but too many Christians have turned it into a message of judgement, hate, and Republicans. Jesus was pretty awesome, I like what he did, but I don't like Christians or the church. I still doubt that I would have believed in God, but maybe, and maybe I would still consider myself a Christian if it weren't for other Christians. (in a way i guess i should thank them)

try to be less of an idiot

Quote :

"We teach that you hate the sin"

that's judgement, and the bible and christ are both pretty clear that you are not allowed to judge others



[Edited on July 25, 2014 at 5:19 PM. Reason : if I was religious today I would be a Quaker, they are pretty cool]

7/25/2014 5:14:36 PM

^ Thats not entirely correct. You are correct in that we are not to judge others in a condescending way. But we do have the responsibility to distinguish good from evil. We need to make sure our motives are pure and inspect ourselves first. But we shouldn't just let everything go without calling it wrong.

John 7:24 says "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment"
Galations 6:1 "Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness"
2 Tim 3:16 "All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training in righteousness

[Edited on July 25, 2014 at 5:34 PM. Reason : .]

7/25/2014 5:33:15 PM

Quote :

" You are correct in that we are not to judge others in a condescending way."

you are not to judge others.

Quote :

"But we do have the responsibility to distinguish good from evil."

nope. wrong again. not only do you not have this responsibility, its explicit in scripture that you should not do this.


[Edited on July 25, 2014 at 5:52 PM. Reason : i think maybe you are having problems with word choice]

7/25/2014 5:37:55 PM

Quote :

"1. Not really 2. Grew up in a Southern Baptist church (forced to be at chruch every single Sunday), but didn't believe 90% of what was taught. The other 10% is just common sense/courtesy."

7/25/2014 5:47:57 PM

Quote :

"We don't use musical instruments in our singing during worship due to not being able to find any of the three conditions listed earlier regarding it."

WTF.



1. No. I would like to believe, but I'm basically a religion-friendly agnostic. Friendly as long as you aren't being a dumbass.

2. N/A

3. N/A


* I actually take my daughter to a non-denominational Christian church once every couple of months. She can learn about it and decided for herself when she's older. Either way, I think it's valuable in our culture to have some degree of knowledge of Christianity.

[Edited on July 25, 2014 at 6:48 PM. Reason : They conspicuously avoid dogma and divisive issues, and focus on core tenets]

[Edited on July 25, 2014 at 6:49 PM. Reason : With a common theme of "stop missing the point and fucking this up"]

7/25/2014 6:47:31 PM

1. Yes
2. Catholic (Byzantine Rite)
3. Byzantine Rite, a group of Eastern Catholics who follow a different rite than (Roman/Latin) Catholics. Other groups of Eastern Catholics include Melkite (Turkish/Syrian), Marionite (Lebanon/Syria), Chaldean (Iraq). Our mass is called the Divine Liturgy. Two forms are celebrated - the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil. These are pretty much in the same form as when they were written - 380 A.D. There are icons which we venerate (not worship), and the altar is separate from the rest of the church. We (the congregation) chant the whole liturgy and responses. There's a lot incensing but NO kneeling - our pews don't have kneelers. A lot of this is found in the Orthodox church, and that's because the Byzantine Empire's capitol, Constantinople (Istanbul) competed with Rome on a lot of spiritual issues. There was a schism in 1054, and while some in the East still wanted to be in communion with Rome, they were politically forced to stay in the Orthodox church's influence. After the Byzantine Empire fell, and the Orthodox center of gravity went to Moscow, the Roman-leaning Christians, particularly in Poland, Lithuania, Slovakia, and the Ukraine wanted to rejoin the Catholic church. Councils were held, and these Eastern Catholics were let back in. The Church in Rome lets us practice our own traditions, but our eparchs and archeparch (bishop and archbishop) answer to the Pope. So even though we were under the Orthodox thumb for a bit, we are NOT Orthodox.




These are pictures from my Byzantine church back in San Diego. If you are interested in seeing how the Byzantine Catholics do things, there's a parish in Cary:
http://www.sscyrilmethodius.org/

7/25/2014 7:22:58 PM

Quote :

"We don't use musical instruments in our singing during worship due to not being able to find any of the three conditions listed earlier regarding it."

Your 3 conditions:
1. Musical instruments are in the bible. G-d loves music.
2. I'm not sure what you mean by "an example talking about it/showing it" when all you do is look at the bible. Isn't that just the same condition as #1?
3. Go back to #1. (I also want to point out that the priestly robes are described in the bible. I'm starting to think that by Bible you only mean New Testament because you're ignoring a big section of Leviticus).

Quote :

"I heard there was a sacred chord, that David played and it pleased the Lord."

7/26/2014 1:41:29 PM

Hey guys, what's going on in this thread?

7/26/2014 2:56:02 PM

1. No
2. None

We briefly flirted with vintage21 because a Saucer brunch couple date we knew went. Pastor Tyler was awesome and IMO is the standard bearer for modern Christianity. I think they are good for the community but I'm just not religious. We wanted a church to marry us in order to please our parents.

They wanted us to be celibate and live apart. When we tried to join a community group, it was the most awkward experience of my life. We sat in the dark singing hymns from youtube. Some cried. The men and women were always separate. At the end, the men were supposed to pray in the basement while the women prayed upstairs. I bolted. I think I was having a panic attack. You can say I tried for all the wrong reasons and I know I did. I can see myself joining a non-religious community in the future.

I believe there might be a God but it isn't a sentient being. If we don't destroy ourselves, it's possible we can colonize other planets and clone humans from existing remains or time travel. I might freeze my ass when I die. Then, we can just keep living over and over again like Sam Rockwell in Moon or take robot bodies. I guess I worship science already.

7/26/2014 4:00:43 PM

Quote :

"Your 3 conditions: 1. Musical instruments are in the bible. G-d loves music. 2. I'm not sure what you mean by "an example talking about it/showing it" when all you do is look at the bible. Isn't that just the same condition as #1? 3. Go back to #1. (I also want to point out that the priestly robes are described in the bible. I'm starting to think that by Bible you only mean New Testament because you're ignoring a big section of Leviticus). "

You are correct. I did mean to say New Testament and not the Bible. As I said earlier in that post, we model ourselves after the Church as described in the book of Acts. Nowhere in the New Testament is there an example of a church using musical instruments in their worship. In fact, not for many hundreds of years did people start using instruments.

We believe that we must worship "in spirit and in truth" (basically meaning that there is a proper way God wants us to worship) and just doing things because you think they are right and with good intentions won't cut it.

Ultimately, it's all up to God. Will using musical instruments in worship cause you to go to Hell? I don't know and it isn't my place to decide. But I do know there are examples throughout the Bible of people going outside or beyond God's will (even though they had the best of intentions) and being struck down for it. So we choose to model ourselves after the first century church as we believe that is how God wants to be worshiped.

7/26/2014 4:33:49 PM

There were instruments used for worship 1000 years before Acts was written.

And I don't understand the sentiment of not doing it because it wasn't mentioned. If it isn't strictly forbidden, then why would you think you shouldn't do it?

Using your voice and clapping your hands are no different than how instruments work.

Does your service leader use a microphone? Because the bible never expressly gives permission for that, either.

7/27/2014 2:59:40 PM

Better take a mule to church, and any Bibles you use had damned well better be on scrolls and hand-copied by scribes.

7/27/2014 3:02:23 PM

[Edited on July 27, 2014 at 4:31 PM. Reason : .]

7/27/2014 4:29:53 PM

New agey Christians don't truck with the Hebrew Bible, man.

7/27/2014 4:38:07 PM

well, then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatitudes

7/27/2014 4:41:41 PM

Quote :

"And I don't understand the sentiment of not doing it because it wasn't mentioned. If it isn't strictly forbidden, then why would you think you shouldn't do it?"

Obviously you've never studied the subject of the silence of the scriptures or the law of exclusion. That doesn't surprise me. Most churches today don't because if they did, they might realize they are doing things that are not correct. Below is a link to someone who has it typed out better than I could here if you care to read it. Scroll down about 1/3 of the way down where it says "Examples of the silence of scriptures" But in short, the idea that unless you are strictly forbidden to do something then you can, is not scriptural.

http://www.charlotteavechurchofchrist.org/MarkReynoldsArticles/The_Silence_of_the_Scriptures.htm

Quote :

" Does your service leader use a microphone? Because the bible never expressly gives permission for that, either. "

Quote :

"Better take a mule to church, and any Bibles you use had damned well better be on scrolls and hand-copied by scribes. "

Those items are things that point to expediency. Those items (microphone, Bibles, song books, etc) help carry out a command. First you have to establish authority to do something and then determine if something is expedient in carrying out that command. We have the authority to gather together as a Church, the church building is an expedient to help carry out that command. We have the authority to sing songs during worship, and song books help carry out the command. These items just expedite the command given. The example of using musical instruments adds to the command which is what we cannot do. If you would like further reading, below is a link that looks like it's an outline of someone's presentation on the topic.
http://www.w65stchurchofchrist.org/Expedient_or_Unlawful.htm

7/27/2014 5:38:51 PM

rofl

7/27/2014 5:41:24 PM

This shit is crazier than the King James-only crowd, or the young-earth creationism stuff, or forbidding dancing or whatever.

7/27/2014 6:01:16 PM

Quote :

"Christ's message was all about love and acceptance but too many Christians have turned it into a message of judgement, hate, and Republicans. Jesus was pretty awesome, I like what he did, but I don't like Christians or the church. I still doubt that I would have believed in God, but maybe, and maybe I would still consider myself a Christian if it weren't for other Christians. (in a way i guess i should thank them)"

Quote :

"try to be less of an idiot"

it's lolworthy that you can pretend you believe what you say in the first quote but then go on to say the second

i, on the other hand, don't pretend that i give two shits about the "judge not" bit...i judge you for sounding like a moron when you imply you could be ANY type of christian and not believe in a single omniscient god with jesus christ as your savior and sole path to forgiveness and salvation

but hey, keep on talking...tell us what a good person you are, what bad people christians are, how silly religion is, and how you could be religious were it not for everyone else fucking it up

self-righteous is just as obnoxious whether you're an atheist or subscribe to any particular religion

7/27/2014 6:35:54 PM

i'm not trying to be an example or claiming I'm a good person, I'm just pointing out that its not hypocritical to not be religious but think that Jesus had a pretty good message. I also think that President Bartlet was a pretty awesome president, and Thoreau had a good message about civil disobedience and the duality of man and nature.

I'm really not sure why you are struggling with such a simple concept. It's pretty easy to like Christ's message but not believe that he is the son of God (and also God) or performed miracles or was resurrected from the dead or anything. He could be entirely fictional and his message is still pretty good.

[Edited on July 27, 2014 at 7:01 PM. Reason : .]

7/27/2014 6:56:28 PM

Dawkins called himself a cultural Christians.

It seems pretty easy to recognize parts of the bible for the literary works they are, and appreciate these parts for the meaning and contexts, without being a "Christian" in the sense of all the mystical nonsense associated with this.

7/27/2014 11:32:04 PM

Quote :

"We don't use musical instruments in our singing during worship due to not being able to find any of the three conditions listed earlier regarding it."

Quote :

"Those items are things that point to expediency. Those items (microphone, Bibles, song books, etc) help carry out a command. First you have to establish authority to do something and then determine if something is expedient in carrying out that command. We have the authority to gather together as a Church, the church building is an expedient to help carry out that command. We have the authority to sing songs during worship, and song books help carry out the command. These items just expedite the command given. The example of using musical instruments adds to the command which is what we cannot do."

I'm not saying this with any religious intent on my mind, but, as a person who can read and write English and construct full sentences, surely you realize that the positions your church takes on things like this is at the very least arbitrary. I don't even find anything you've said offensive except for the homophobia, but you sound like a crazy person.

No joke, where do you stand on beatboxing?

7/28/2014 1:51:28 AM

Quote :

"i judge you for sounding like a moron when you imply you could be ANY type of christian and not believe in a single omniscient god with jesus christ as your savior and sole path to forgiveness and salvation"

I was raised in a Christian home, and we definitely did not believe that Jesus Christ was the son of "God" or our savior or the sole path to forgiveness/salvation.

It went a little something like this:

"Here are some stories about this cool dude named Jesus. Doesn't he sound awesome? You should try to be more like him and less like your shitty self."

We didn't really concern ourselves with the other stuff, and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of regular churchgoers don't have the same attitude.

[Edited on July 28, 2014 at 2:18 AM. Reason : ]

7/28/2014 2:17:23 AM

Quote :

"I was raised in a Christian home, and we definitely did not believe that Jesus Christ was the son of "God" or our savior or the sole path to forgiveness/salvation."

I'm definitely not trying to be argumentative here, so please don't take it as that...

but according to that statement you did not grow up in a "Christian" home...you grew up in a good, moral, probably religious home...

the prime tenet of Christianity is John 4:16...

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."


it is absolutely...100% mandatory...without discussion...that you must believe that Jesus (Christ) is your way to salvation in order to be a Christian...that's sorta the whole point


you can be very deeply religious without being a Christian...it's the end game that's up for discussion in that case

7/28/2014 6:25:16 AM

TIL you people consider themselves a follower of a particular religion without actually following or agreeing with the key tenets that define that religion

i must belong to a metric fuckton of religions

7/28/2014 6:28:31 AM

Sorry, guys. It's just a view you adapt when you're 5, and somebody's parent sticks their finger in your face and tells you you're going to hell.

I'm aware of how critical it is to you all that Christians believe that other stuff...been told about the important tenets many times over the course of my life.

Until I started lying about church attendance, I was warned about my fiery fate by several adults--my parents advised me to be tolerant of their religious views.

Still don't understand why the tolerance/kindness/compassion parts never really took off with real Christians.

[Edited on July 28, 2014 at 7:19 AM. Reason : They're the best parts!]

7/28/2014 7:18:54 AM

I was raised in a Buddhist household. We didn't really believe in any of the Buddhist stuff but we sat Indian style and had to be silent a lot.

7/28/2014 7:49:17 AM

Quote :

"I'm aware of how critical it is to you all that Christians believe that other stuff"

as a non-christian, i don't care what you believe...i just think it's important for a college-educated adult to understand that NOT believing in the parts that are "required" in a particular religion means you don't actually belong to that religion no matter how badly you want to say you do

i frequently go to church with my parents on easter or at christmas...sing the hymns, partake in communion...and i enjoy it, as it reminds me of being a kid and time together as a family

if the preacher were ever to ask if i were actually a christian, i'd say without any hesitation that i was not

Quote :

"I was raised in a Buddhist household. We didn't really believe in any of the Buddhist stuff but we sat Indian style and had to be silent a lot."

no, you were not raised in a buddhist household...you were just an annoying child and your parents just wanted you to sit down and shut up

[Edited on July 28, 2014 at 7:58 AM. Reason : .]

7/28/2014 7:55:08 AM

hmmm I too find it weird that people grew up Christian but dont believe Jesus was the son of God...well Jesus numerous times said he was the son of God.


I also find it weird that some Christians dont believe in the Old testament when Jesus believed the Old testment being a Jew. he quoted it plenty of times and used prophecy from it concerning himself. " I'm not here to do away with the Law but to fulfill it" (paraphrase)

I believe there was a historical Jesus. I believe he was influential to a group looking for messianic savior however throughout time the story got murked by the Roman Empire and it came to a head with Constantine the great. he made Christianity the official religion with, I believe, him being totally crazy and elite people putting together the canon and plagiarizing the hell out of it.

7/28/2014 9:37:54 AM

Yeah, I thought the message of the Gospel of John was the fundamental tenet of Christianity: Accepting Jesus (the son of god) as your Lord and Savior to make it to Heaven.

7/28/2014 10:04:58 AM

Quote :

"The catholic worship of Marry, and the fact they they do not believe in salvation through faith alone, make catholicism not christian"

Quote :

"its interesting that athiests always know more about religion than the religious"

-dtownral


Lol.

7/28/2014 11:20:46 AM

I'm jewish

I'm Krallum and I approved this message.

7/28/2014 8:41:11 PM

^^^^^I was just fucking with you guys.

Obviously, I do not badly want to call myself a Christian.

Why would I want to associate myself with any of you?

And don't call yourself a non-Christian. If you ever sat in a church and believed a lick of that garbage, you still got some Christian taint on you.

7/28/2014 9:00:23 PM

Quote :

"Obviously you've never studied the subject of the silence of the scriptures or the law of exclusion"

Religion major... I've studied it. I just don't understand why people follow it. And by the way, most of the first century Christians were just Jews with a strong belief the messiah had come, and "Christian" wasn't a widely circulated term. So the Hebrew Bible would be in play, and I promise you, worship through music was widely used.

7/31/2014 1:06:19 AM