2%

I'm Krallum and I approved this message.

9/12/2014 12:01:36 PM

Str8BacardiL telling some harsh truths.

Quote :

"I think this is worse than Ray Rice"

9/12/2014 6:16:51 PM

Quote :

"if the business doesn't honor this, u can just show the department of labor your paystub and get them fined. "

This is a great way to get fired.

To which you reply, well, that'd be wrongful termination, you can just sue them.

To which I say, how many ex-waiters you know walking around with lawyer-hiring money? Court battles cost a lot. Not just the direct stuff -- lawyers and court fees -- but in terms of future employment. Who wants to hire somebody with a history of reporting on and then suing their boss?

Quote :

"If you're a server and your service is lacking due to staffing, management, etc. issues and you are getting bad tips, then you should be directing your anger at the responsible parties, e.g. management, etc."

This is perfectly reasonable, and I'll wager that most waitstaff feel the same way. They want the restaurant to run smoothly because that's how they make more money.

Quote :

"Also, you should be angry with management, ownership, your industry, and government for having this less-than-minimum wage bullshit and forcing this tipping culture on everyone else, which has now spilled into most service industries, those with "full" wages. This tipping shit is a scam."

Can't agree with you here. Why should waiters be mad at the existence of the "tipping culture"? A lot of people are drawn to it because, in a way, it's like gambling. Some nights you hit it big. Some nights you barely make minimum wage.

You might think that we as consumers should be mad at ownership, the government, whoever, and clearly you do because you think tipping is a scam.

But I disagree with you, and I disagree not because I've worked in a tip-receiving position, but because I have done some travelling in my time. I've lived in places where tipping was the norm (USA), where it was kinda-sorta common (Peru), and places where it does not exist (Benin). And you know what I've found?

The presence of tipping in a culture or establishment correlates directly to good customer service and pleasant eating experiences.

9/14/2014 8:35:51 AM

I agree with your stance on a lot of this stuff, but you've been flat out wrong about several things in this thread, like this one:

Quote :

"A lot of people are drawn to it because, in a way, it's like gambling"

Nobody is drawn to the service industry because of the thrill of whether or not they're going to have a big night or shitty night. That's probably one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. They are drawn to it because its not a bad way to make some really good cash and most of the time you get to work with some fun people and hopefully in a fun environment. That perspective changes the longer you work in the industry and then it just turns into a job that where you can make decent money. I've never heard a server or bartender get amped up on the gamble of a big or small night. That's comical.

9/14/2014 9:38:45 AM

^

9/14/2014 4:17:42 PM

I took that concept directly from Waiter Rant, which is a memoir about being a waiter by a waiter (who subsequently said the same thing in a book entirely about tipping). It didn't come out of my ass.

But to add some nuance, I should clarify that it wasn't presented as "people wait tables because they like the gambling aspect," but more as, "there are people who wait tables who like the gambling aspect."

When I was a bartender it wasn't one of my driving motivations or anything, but I can definitely see a shadow of this in myself. A "good night" (which is relative, I worked at the Ramada Inn) made me feel high out of proportion to the modest amount of money.

9/15/2014 7:58:51 AM

4^
I, too, have traveled and had great service in both types of countries. Here in the first world, there has been plenty of evidence that establishments with no tips often have superior service [especially for those of color]. Not saying that would hold true throughout the industry, but to assume, based on your limit experience in very different countries, that tips == better service, is flat out wrong.

And no, it's not like gambling. I've worked in the industry. It's shitty for the vast majority of works, no matter what. Those working in high class, 5* establishments will see nice tips (if allowed) but also probably a living wage. Flirty girls can generally do better at most places; somewhat for flirty guys, though much less so. Bartenders probably have the best opportunity overall at "making" it on tips. But let's be real here, "making it" in this industry must be looked at in a relative sense... not too many of these works are truly earning enough for an above-living wage life and retirement. They may be doing great for college/young adults, and even as a part-time job.

I'd venture to guess that if you were to put tipping up to a vote among the industry, most servers would probably like a stable, predictable wage than play the game of tipping. This is obviously assuming that wages can be very competitive with wages+tips. I'd also venture to guess that most patrons would also prefer a tipless environment.

And I cite the entire tipping culture because it has bled over into babershops/salons, handymen, delivery services, etc.

9/15/2014 8:50:33 AM

Quote :

"as someone who has waited tables for a decade, "

well there's your problem

9/15/2014 8:51:45 AM

I think it's a bit more complicated than "tipping == better service." In fact I said as much, in that it correlates, not causes.

In the United States, eateries without tips fall into a few categories that aren't really suitable for comparison:

1) Fast food, where service is rarely better than mediocre
2) Takeout, where service isn't really a big factor
3) The very few establishments that have an active anti-tipping policy, which don't represent enough of a sample to be "plenty of evidence" and which, besides, must pay their employees substantially more than minimum wage.

Quote :

"And no, it's not like gambling. I've worked in the industry. It's shitty for the vast majority of works, no matter what."

In that sense it sounds exactly like gambling, the whole point of which is that most people lose at it.

This gambling thing seems to be getting way out of proportion. I did not claim that the idea of getting tips causes people to want to become waiters. I did not claim that getting tips makes the job fun, glamorous, or even un-shitty. I did not claim that tipping made serving a viable career. I simply claimed that there are people in tipped professions who find tips appealing as opposed to a slightly higher fixed wage. And I'll still wager a sizable proportion, particularly given that so many servers are young adults for whom stability is less of a priority and the thrill-seeking behavior that inspires gambling is so prevalent.

But there I, like you, am playing the conjecture game. I'm not aware of any polling that says anything concrete about how tippees feel about tipping culture. But you said the critical clause: "assuming that wages can be very competitive with wages+tips." How high would that have to be? Would patrons prefer a tipless environment to higher fixed food costs? Are there people out there who are that stressed out and befuddled by leaving a 15% tip?

9/15/2014 9:15:32 AM

I got mostly less-than-average service when I traveled abroad. But I also live in a city where people make a decent living in the food and beverage industry (Charleston) and the service at most places is stellar. Servers and bartenders at high volume and high end establishments can easily make in the $50-75k range...which can also be higher depending on how much of their tips are in cash and how much they claim (although a lot of the higher end restaurants do paycheck systems so that servers/bartenders can't really get away with not claiming tips). Those same restaurants could in no way, shape or form, afford to pay their staff anything close to what they are making in tips. Which means they would get shittier employees and my dining experiences would suffer greatly.

So while you might not see a difference at Applebees and Outback....getting rid of the tipping system would have a huge effect on nicer establishments.

9/15/2014 11:04:27 AM

Quote :

"I got mostly less-than-average service when I traveled abroad"

I must agree with my travel abroad buddy on this one. I have come to expect nothing but complete shit service here in comparison to what I would get in the States.

9/15/2014 11:11:11 AM

Quote :

"TIP SHAMING APOLOGY"

9/15/2014 11:59:17 AM

Quote :

"Those same restaurants could in no way, shape or form, afford to pay their staff anything close to what they are making in tips. Which means they would get shittier employees and my dining experiences would suffer greatly. "

How do you figure?

Seems like raising menu prices 15-20% would cover it...

[Edited on September 15, 2014 at 12:50 PM. Reason : ]

9/15/2014 12:35:37 PM

Quote :

"Seems like raising menu costs 15-20% would cover it... "

[Edited on September 15, 2014 at 12:43 PM. Reason : .]

9/15/2014 12:42:22 PM

^^exactly. the money all came in through the same patrons and got spent at the same location; the only difference is that the customer didn't have to worry about splitting out his bill between the restaurant and the server.

[Edited on September 15, 2014 at 12:44 PM. Reason : .]

9/15/2014 12:44:27 PM

The problem you would get if the tip system was abolished would be dishwashers/bus boys waiting on you for 15/20% increase in cost. There would be no benefit for a smart person to put up with the bullshit of waiting tables for $8-10/hr. That might actually be okay for shitty chains...but would be horrible for any decent restaurant.

And if restaurants paid them more for quality work, you would be looking at 50-100% increase in prices (if not more).

9/15/2014 12:51:42 PM

the problem with this thread is people basing their conclusions by how waiters treat them at Applebee's and the Red Lobster.

9/15/2014 1:06:01 PM

food prices would only go up 50-100% if people were tipping 50-100%. the food prices only have to go up by the amount they have to offset.

If you want to claim that food prices have to go up to offset what servers cheat the government out of in unreported income that's now being reported - that's an entirely different argument.

9/15/2014 1:08:15 PM

You're not getting it.

1) Restaurants only have to offset what the server would be getting if it was medium wage.

2) Servers/bartenders make way more than minimum wage (has nothing to do with your "cheating the government claim)

3) If servers/bartenders only received minimum wage and zero tips, then you would be getting the equivalent of a McDonald's cashier as your server.

So your food prices would raise 20% and you would be getting the equivalent of someone who works the fry station recommending you a Cabernet to pair with your $45 filet mignon. Have fun with that.

[Edited on September 15, 2014 at 1:32 PM. Reason : i just want to say "equivalent" again]

9/15/2014 1:20:34 PM

As you have already mentioned jbrick, a good analogy to what people here are proposing as a "Tip Included" solution is the already function system that is in most of Europe. Especially where I am living in Germany (and also when I have traveled to Holland, France, and Belgium), you can count on the fact that the service quality will be unbelievably lower than it is back home. For instance, you will sometimes sit down and wait 30 to 45 minutes for a waiter when the restaurant is only half full, most of the time they are either chatting or outside smoking. When you ask questions about what is in the dish or what to try, most of the time that just stare at you and pretend not to know, or they will go and ask the chef (which is basically a way to cheat you out of another 20 minutes). Oh and, you might as well order two drinks if you are going to stay for a second one, because good luck getting somebody to stop by after they see that your first is done.



[Edited on September 15, 2014 at 1:31 PM. Reason : g]

9/15/2014 1:30:09 PM

Quote :

"You're not getting it. 1) Restaurants only have to offset what the server would be getting if it was medium wage. 2) Servers/bartenders make way more than minimum wage (has nothing to do with your "cheating the government claim) 3) If servers/bartenders only received minimum wage and zero tips, then you would be getting the equivalent of a McDonald's cashier as your server. So your food prices would raise 20% and you would be getting the equivalent of someone who works the fry station recommending you a Cabernet to pair with your $45 filet mignon. Have fun with that."

are you saying that restaurants are going to charge more and hire substandard wait staff? that doesn't sound good for their business if they have terrible waitresses.

9/15/2014 1:56:46 PM

^You are also not getting it.

9/15/2014 1:59:10 PM

sounds like you aren't getting it.

9/15/2014 1:59:56 PM

bartenders don't make 100% of their liquor sales every night. The ones that do are crooks. A bartender that's making $75,000 a year by bringing home $300 a night probably made $1500 in sales on average each night. Raising the sale price 20% will cover his wage.


[Edited on September 15, 2014 at 2:09 PM. Reason : no one is proposing minimum wage for restaurant staff at Ruth Chris]

9/15/2014 2:05:11 PM

market rate for quality servers.

9/15/2014 2:07:12 PM

I'll break it down for you...

Right Now:

- Restaurants are required to only pay servers what amount to minimum wage IF servers don't get enough tips to equal minimum wage.

- Most servers make WELL ABOVE minimum wage.

- Therefore...restaurants generally don't have to pay minimum wage. They normally pay a little over $2/hr.


If Tipping System was abolished:

- Restaurants would have to pay minimum wage...increasing their salaries for employees by 400% JUST TO MEET MINIMUM WAGE.

- Those costs would be relayed to the consumer.

- Instead of getting servers who make anywhere between $20 and $50 an hour...you would be getting employees who only work for $8-10/hr....AKA really young kids or shitty workers. And your food would be priced much higher...but hey...AT LEAST YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO TIP THAT OVER-ENTITLED BARTENDER 15%!!!

[Edited on September 15, 2014 at 2:12 PM. Reason : .]

9/15/2014 2:08:09 PM

Quote :

"market rate for quality servers. "

It would be too high for restaurants. You're talking $50k+ for a good server. They pay less than 1/10th of that right now. 1,000% increase in servers' salaries would cripple 98% of restaurants.

Quote :

"bartenders don't make 100% of their liquor sales every night."

wtf does this even mean?

[Edited on September 15, 2014 at 2:10 PM. Reason : .]

9/15/2014 2:09:45 PM

a server making $50k a year in tips is selling $250,000 in food a year. What part about raising a $25 menu item to a $30 menu item including tip do you not understand?

[Edited on September 15, 2014 at 2:12 PM. Reason : ^bartenders don't take home a dollar in tip for every dollar they sell]

9/15/2014 2:12:13 PM

so if the cost of a 20% tip were included in the bill

that money would then be paid directly to the server in their paycheck

then the servers would be making on average 20% tips.

which is about what they make now.

your math doesn't add up.

9/15/2014 2:13:09 PM

Quote :

"So your food prices would raise 20% and you would be getting the equivalent of someone who works the fry station recommending you a Cabernet to pair with your $45 filet mignon. Have fun with that. "

So you're saying rather than paying their servers what they could have been making before, greedy business owners would just pocket their extra revenue while shafting their employees?

1) That's a pretty grim view of business owners
2) If that's the reality, don't we have bigger problems in our society...? Wouldn't this imply we should be switching even more service jobs over to being tip-based?
3) Should we then also not investigate how this greed my be affecting the wages of non-service workers?

9/15/2014 2:14:22 PM

You guys are basically arguing for an automatic tip now instead of no tipping...you get that, right?

9/15/2014 2:17:26 PM

a tip included in the price... yes.

9/15/2014 2:18:41 PM

So you're (not you in particular...but the majority of people against tipping) bitching about waiters that are "entitled" to 15-20% for bad service...yet if you get rid of the tipping system they will get that 20% regardless of how bad they are?

[Edited on September 15, 2014 at 2:22 PM. Reason : .]

9/15/2014 2:21:53 PM

^^^no we're not. we're arguing for tipping to be included in the cost of the bill and the manager of the establishment is responsible for handling payroll and staff. I don't want the 20% to go directly to the server.

My biggest issue with a tip-free system in the immediate future is that restaurant managers are usually financially inept and have a tendency to value workers based on interpersonal relationships over their value as an employee. This is partly caused by the practice of tipping, and I would imagine that getting rid of tipping would weed out piss-poor managers after a couple of years as certain restaurants thrive while others fall apart.

9/15/2014 2:40:28 PM

You'll never weed out piss poor managers because they don't get paid enough. It's probably the worst position in a restaurant.

Quote :

"I don't want the 20% to go directly to the server."

If you think you have bad service now...you're only going to get worse if they don't get at least 20%. So it basically is what you're arguing.

[Edited on September 15, 2014 at 2:45 PM. Reason : .]

9/15/2014 2:43:26 PM

they don't get 20% after tip-out at good restaurants, and I doubt they get 20% anywhere else either. the average tip in this country is not 20%.

9/15/2014 2:49:09 PM

I put well-made food prepared in sanitary conditions WELL above "good service" (that only really includes bring me drinks and taking my order-- with a smile).

If there were a way to incentivize better managers over better servers, i'd be in favor of that.

Servers are pretty high-and-mighty about their tips. It's not like the bar to get a good tip is that high. If you're doing something where you don't get good tips, you should probably not be working that job...

[Edited on September 15, 2014 at 2:51 PM. Reason : ]

9/15/2014 2:50:24 PM

jbrick be droppin some serious knowledge ITT.

9/15/2014 2:50:41 PM

If you're not getting tipped you're obviously a huge bitch.

[/thread]

I'm Krallum and I approved this message.

9/15/2014 2:51:53 PM

Quote :

"they don't get 20% after tip-out at good restaurants, and I doubt they get 20% anywhere else either. the average tip in this country is not 20%. "

I beg to differ. Shit...last bar I worked out we averaged 30% tips on most nights.

9/15/2014 3:04:43 PM

People saying that means that they have not been to a good restaurant yet.

9/15/2014 3:07:10 PM

He might be referring to servers tipping out the bartenders/bus boys/expo (which there are different rules on tipping those out at every restaurant...a lot you don't have to)...which in that case it might be closer to 20%. Either way, it hovers in between the 15-20%...but probably closer to 20.

9/15/2014 3:16:15 PM

bartenders at bars tend to make better money because their clientele get drunk and frivolous with their tipping. You can't use your anecdotal 30% experience and apply it to someone working at a steakhouse.

9/15/2014 3:29:52 PM

I've yet to hear one single explanation for why more money has to come into a restaurant than before in order for the employees to make the same amount of money.

Also jbrick83, did you make that 30% tip by serving drinks on the house and then expecting people to tip on the free drinks? I was friends with a lot of bartenders that did that in college, and it was more along the lines of theft from the owner than being tipped well.

9/15/2014 3:35:03 PM

I've been in charge of server checkouts for two different restaurants over the course of 4 years. I've also dated nothing but servers and bartenders (as well as them composing about 90% of my friend base) for the past 10 years.

I think I have a much better understanding of what servers and bartenders make than you...no offense.

Quote :

"Also jbrick83, did you make that 30% tip by serving drinks on the house and then expecting people to tip on the free drinks? I was friends with a lot of bartenders that did that in college, and it was more along the lines of theft from the owner than being tipped well."

I've never been a drink thief because I didn't have to. Every bar I've worked at gave the bartenders anywhere from a $20 - $35 comp tab. So we had a little room to "buy" drinks...but rarely did it the way you mentioned unless we had room at the end of the shift and wanted to make a couple extra bucks. When I use to drink heavily behind the bar, I'd bring in my own liquor to take and share shots with customers. But didn't really consider that "stealing" as it was me passing out shots and not patrons ordering them. But keep up with the generalizations.


[Edited on September 15, 2014 at 3:42 PM. Reason : .]

9/15/2014 3:37:39 PM

back it up with some numbers then. Tell us how much you made, how much you sold, and how much you skimmed.

9/15/2014 3:40:31 PM

Good lord...someone has an unhealthy distaste for the service industry.

9/15/2014 3:42:02 PM

^^ have you ever been in the service industry?


Clearly not, otherwise you wouldn't be such a douchebag about it

9/15/2014 3:48:55 PM

I have a healthy distaste for the corruption that goes along with tipping.

9/15/2014 3:49:20 PM

eleusis is a douchebag when it comes to all things non-weightlifting. And even then, it has to be weightlifting practices that only he agrees with. His online persona is one of the saddest on t-dub. I like to think that he takes all his negativity out online and is one of the happiest people in the world in real life...but I highly doubt it.


And bartenders are really the only ones in position to corrupt because they handle the drinks first hand. With a few exceptions...its almost impossible for a server to "scam the tipping system." But I'm sure many have figured it out and gotten many of the restaurant's hard earned dollars from the mighty eleusis.

Not to mention that a large portion of restaurants weight liquors, do inventory, and have cameras these days. Not as easy to "skim off the top" as it use to be.



[Edited on September 15, 2014 at 3:58 PM. Reason : .]

9/15/2014 3:53:58 PM