Quote :

"Only 24% of Catholics—compared to 33% of the general population—supported the death penalty when respondents were given a range of alternative punishments for murder"

Quote :

"only 23% of practicing Christian "millennials" (i.e., those born between 1980 and 2000) agreed with the statement: "The government should have the option to execute the worst criminals." "

3/18/2015 4:40:44 PM

when jesus stopped the capital punishment of the woman, he makes clear that it is because no one has the moral authority to condemn another to death, it's the point of the story.

your position is that since jesus didn't get involved in every single instance, even those in which he has no control or those that are part of his sacrifice, it means that the point of that story only applies to that single instance? that in other situations that are not described one has the moral authority to judge and condemn another to death?

Quote :

" I don't think anyone can argue that lethal injections are taken out in the heat of the moment."

you're an attorney who thinks murder can't be premeditated and calculated?

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 4:42 PM. Reason : ?]

3/18/2015 4:40:58 PM

Quote :

"If 40% of Catholics, and 20% of Protestants oppose, then yes, that does mean that "about half" of Christians support it."

Holy fuck this statement is full of so much stupid I don't know where to begin.

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 4:41 PM. Reason : No offense though ]

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 4:42 PM. Reason : just being honest]

3/18/2015 4:41:30 PM

Quote :

"you're an attorney who thinks murder can't be premeditated and calculated?"

I have never said that. I said that lethal injections as a part of capital punishment are not murder.

^The studies you've quoted above are for a very small subset of Christians. Millennials are not representative of Christians as a whole. I don't think you can find a study that shows that more than half of Christians oppose the death penalty.

If 40% of Catholics oppose, that means that 60% don't oppose.
If 20% of Protestants oppose, that means that up to 80% don't oppose. This matches up with the study that shows 74% of evangelicals support the death penalty.

It's not adding percentages, it's looking at the converse.

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 4:45 PM. Reason : ]

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 4:46 PM. Reason : ]

3/18/2015 4:43:19 PM

100% of the people in my desk chair like pickles and 20% of other people like pickles so 120% of people like pickles

Quote :

"I said that lethal injections as a part of capital punishment are not murder."

you said

Quote :

"Murder is a sin, simply taking someone's life is not. Is war a sin? Is protecting your family against an intruder a sin? The act of killing, in and of itself, is not a sin. I don't think anyone can argue that lethal injections are taken out in the heat of the moment."

you tried to imply that lethal injections are not murder because they are not done in the heat of the moment.

which is not solid logic and thus a poor argument

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 4:45 PM. Reason : .]

3/18/2015 4:43:41 PM

You said the death penalty was against the part of the new testament that prevents killing or actions taken while angry.

Quote :

"It specifically says not to sin in anger, when you do get angry, and killing someone is a sin."

Lethal injections are not an action or killing taken out in anger. Killing isn't against the law and it's not against the new testament. Murder is. There is a difference.

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 4:48 PM. Reason : ]

3/18/2015 4:47:43 PM

Quote :

"Is war a sin?"

Most are, at least many of the actions in those wars. We didn't need to Fire bomb Dresden, or drop 2 nuclear weapons. We didn't need to preemptively invade Iran. We didn't need to blast an entire family at a wedding with a drone platform.

Quote :

" Is protecting your family against an intruder a sin? The act of killing, in and of itself, is not a sin. I don't think anyone can argue that lethal injections are taken out in the heat of the moment. "

It's probably a sim to kill someone in your house who's not physically threatening you (if they are trying to run away or something).

I'm pretty sure calmly killing someone is worse than the heat of the moment, that's obviously a sin. But doing it in the heat of the moment, biblically, should be avoidable if you're a practicing Christian, because you're supposed to practice restraint.

3/18/2015 4:48:51 PM

^^no, i didn't. maybe you are confusing me with someone?

i did list multiple ways that the new testament conflicts with capital punishment though:

Quote :

"Jesus is certainly opposed to the death penalty, he demonstrated clearly that no one has the moral authority to condemn another to death when he saved the woman from the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus spoke frequently on nonviolence, forgiveness, and loving neighbors and those who have hurt you It's also not only from Jesus, even Paul and Peter talk against revenge or using violence to repay violence."

Quote :

"... ignore that there are plenty of examples or teachings in the new testament that oppose capital punishment, revenge, or using violence to repay violence"

Quote :

"when jesus stopped the capital punishment of the woman, he makes clear that it is because no one has the moral authority to condemn another to death, it's the point of the story. "

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 4:51 PM. Reason : .]

3/18/2015 4:49:20 PM

Apparently it was moron who said it. But it was a response specifically to that premise. In no way am I saying that murder can't be done in a calculated manner. I am saying there are plenty of examples of "killing" that is not murder.

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 4:50 PM. Reason : ]

3/18/2015 4:50:13 PM

Quote :

"The studies you've quoted above are for a very small subset of Christians. Millennials are not representative of Christians as a whole. ] ... 74% of evangelicals support the death penalty."

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 4:52 PM. Reason : I'm still waiting on your data on half of the world's Christians supporting the death penalty btw ]

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 4:52 PM. Reason : Your percentage averaging of random US polls ain't cutting it.]

3/18/2015 4:51:22 PM

Not arguing with the 74% being evangelicals only. I'm giving multiple examples. You still have not cited a study that says the majority of Christians or even half of the Christians out there oppose the death penalty. I gave you an entire page of studies and I am not hiding the fact that the ranges are all over the place. But they are generally about half. Slightly higher than the amount of support/opposition of the general population in America.

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 4:53 PM. Reason : ]

3/18/2015 4:53:26 PM

Quote :

"You still have not cited a study that says the majority of Christians or even half of the Christians out there oppose the death penalty."

I'm not the one who made the wild claim. You were.

Hence, I'm still waiting on your data.

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 4:55 PM. Reason : Your initial claim wasn't Just America, but even there, 50% is bullshit. ]

3/18/2015 4:55:07 PM

let's get back to these statements:

Quote :

"^^No, it wasn't capital punishment, that was vigilante justice."

Quote :

"And he never spoke out against government punishment including death."

why do you believe that something becomes moral from a christian perspective because it is done by the state/government?

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 4:57 PM. Reason : .]

3/18/2015 4:56:30 PM

^^Actually, you were the one who stated that most Christians don't support the death penalty. I responded to that statement with about half do, which has already been supported by multiple studies in this thread.





From a study by the Pew Research Center

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 5:02 PM. Reason : ]

3/18/2015 4:59:16 PM

This has been fun. But I have to go home and prepare for court tomorrow. I'll leave y'all to it.

3/18/2015 5:04:39 PM

3/18/2015 5:37:12 PM

Quote :

"Actually, you were the one who stated that most Christians don't support the death penalty."

Actually, you initially stated that Christians, as a singular group, support the death penalty. My comment you're referencing was a response to that.

You've posted polls of American Christians, which are all over the place, but have still yet to post any
polls of world Christians. Surely you realize the US has a very small percentage of Christendom.

The Catholic Church, the largest denomination of Christianity by far, fiercely opposes capital punishment. Obviously not all their adherents agree with that position, but I'd imagine most do.

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 6:27 PM. Reason : ]

3/18/2015 6:11:27 PM

No, that post was linking to a blog that explains why Christians support the death penalty, i.e., the basis of this thread. Why it's not a conflict for Christians to support the death penalty. Nowhere have I claimed that all Christians support the death penalty.

However, you stated:

Quote :

"[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 4:55 PM. Reason : Your initial claim wasn't Just America, but even there, 50% is bullshit. ]"

Which is categorically false.

Quote :

"Surely you realize the US has a very small percentage of Christendom"

China is actually on its way to become the largest Christian population, but America is pretty far up there.

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 6:22 PM. Reason : ]

3/18/2015 6:18:44 PM

I'll take that as a yes.

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 6:34 PM. Reason : we have around 11% of the world's Christians, btw]

[Edited on March 18, 2015 at 6:38 PM. Reason : You realize how many Hispanic Catholics there are right?]

3/18/2015 6:27:10 PM

the US = the Americas

3/18/2015 6:48:48 PM

Apparently

3/18/2015 7:57:59 PM

Quote :

" many christians (i would assume most) abide by "thou shalt not kill""

I think very few Christians would take that to the extreme of "you can never kill anybody under any circumstances." I'm sure there are some saintly individuals who wouldn't raise a hand even in self defense, but most of us can at least agree that if someone is trying to kill us or rape our kids or whatever, we get to shoot them.

Cabbage

Quote :

"I was getting the impression that, for the set of people deserving the death penalty (in your opinion), incarceration was not an option for you--It has too many risks such as escape/early release from prison, intraprison crime,...."

No, I think incarceration is an option, in the sense that I don't think it's a patently immoral alternative. I'm not opposed to incarceration. I just think that in some circumstances the death penalty is preferable, for the reasons I listed.

Quote :

"Generally speaking, a wrongful incarceration can be corrected by releasing the falsely imprsioned. Sure, there's the potential for things to fuck up (as in your scenario) so that there ultimately is no remedy, but that's a bug, not a feature. "

1) I am of the opinion that, generally speaking, wrongful incarceration of any length cannot be "corrected." The deprivation of freedom and the elimination of future opportunities are permanent, as is whatever other horrors experienced in prison. Throwing a few dollars at someone and apologizing doesn't come close to wiping that slate.
2) Wrongfully convicting someone in the first place is a bug, not a feature. Your thing has a bug and you excuse it as an aberration, my thing may have a bug and you reject it out of hand.

dtownral

Quote :

"not even when jesus literally stopped a capital punishment?"

You're extrapolating a lot from this, more than I think is reasonable. He stopped an exceptionally brutal execution for a "crime" that was a personal matter, being tried on religious grounds. I'm also opposed to executing people for breaking religious rules.

Quote :

"I'm still waiting on your data on half of the world's Christians supporting the death penalty btw"

Don't be a shithead. Nobody is talking about the "world's Christians." This is America.

There can be no meaningful opinion survey of "world Christians," because the 23.6% in Africa are effectively un-surveyable (though I will tell you right now that a large portion of them are in favor of lynchings).

3/19/2015 4:04:34 AM

Quote :

"1) I am of the opinion that, generally speaking, wrongful incarceration of any length cannot be "corrected." The deprivation of freedom and the elimination of future opportunities are permanent, as is whatever other horrors experienced in prison. Throwing a few dollars at someone and apologizing doesn't come close to wiping that slate."

Absolutely. "Corrected" and "remedied" are far too strong to apply here and I shouldn't have used them. However, someone wrongfully incarcerated can at least be somewhat compensated by being released and awarded damages. Absolutely insufficient compensation, but still more compensation than you can give a dead man.

Quote :

"2) Wrongfully convicting someone in the first place is a bug, not a feature. Your thing has a bug and you excuse it as an aberration, my thing may have a bug and you reject it out of hand."

That's not what I'm saying. Whether you're wrongfully incarcerated or wrongfully executed, that's a bug in either case, no question; that's not the bug I'm talking about, however. Since both share that bug it is no factor in my judgment here:

In your scenario of death resulting from incarceration, the death resulted from a malfunction of incarceration. The state failed in its obligation to guarantee the security of its prisoner. That's what I call a bug, not a feature.

In the wrongful execution scenario, the death resulted not from a malfunction of execution, but because the execution functioned precisely as intended. That's what I call a feature, not a bug.

3/19/2015 5:46:22 AM

Quote :

"You're extrapolating a lot from this, more than I think is reasonable. He stopped an exceptionally brutal execution for a "crime" that was a personal matter, being tried on religious grounds. I'm also opposed to executing people for breaking religious rules."

it was brutal, but that was what the punishment was according to the law. jesus did not say "you guys could stone this woman if what she did was bad enough" he asked them who among them had the authority to judge her. no one has the authority to judge another and condemn them to death, what the crime was did not matter.

3/19/2015 8:53:42 AM

hai guys what's goin' on in this thread?

3/19/2015 11:38:14 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/ohio-man-cleared-murder-39-years-jail-1-063803465.html

3/20/2015 3:19:14 PM

Quote :

"He had originally been sentenced to death but escaped because of a paperwork error."

The system not working allowed the system to work.

3/20/2015 4:37:17 PM

Quote :

"No one should be given the ability to impose a sentence of death in any criminal proceeding. We are simply incapable of devising a system that can fairly and impartially impose a sentence of death because we are all fallible human beings."

-A.M. “Marty” Stroud III, former Louisiana prosecutor involved in the wrongful conviction of an innocent man back in 1984 (who has since been released from prison).

Continuing:

Quote :

"There is insufficient space here to do justice to what he wrote. But you will find it — along with a remarkable video interview — at shreveporttimes.com. Suffice it to say, the man is eaten alive by remorse. He rebukes himself for multiple sins, for being too “passive” to follow up on evidence suggesting Ford’s innocence, for never considering the unfairness of striking black jurors from the panel that judged an indigent black man, for not caring that Ford was represented by “counsel who had never tried a criminal case, much less a capital one,” for placing “junk science” into evidence, for caring less about justice than about winning."

http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/leonard-pitts-jr/article16214435.html

I have seen way too many examples of prosecutors guilty of all of the above to ever trust the state with the power of the death penalty.

3/26/2015 9:41:45 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/13/opinion/152-innocents-marked-for-death.html

4/14/2015 12:37:49 AM

Arkansas messed up big time in the last botched execution. They are trying to cover it up. Hopefully, this latest killing spree will build enough outrage to end the savagery nationwide.

4/25/2017 10:24:39 AM

They didn't botch a damn thing. It's just activists making up shit to arouse controversy. There's plenty of reasons an unconscious person's lips can move. Put down the Mother Jones crackpipe.

4/27/2017 1:16:27 AM

They aren't just unconscious, a general paralytic is also applied that is supposed to cease all muscle activity (if you believe the executioner's claims). You'd think that'd be pretty important considering this is supposed to lead directly to one of the main avenues of death (stopped breathing). If the lips are still moving, there's at least some possibility that the person could still be breathing.

4/27/2017 7:19:52 AM

i don't support the death penalty, but is there a reason they don't give them a ton of narcotics or use nitrogen gas or something?

4/27/2017 9:03:28 AM

^^ From what I can tell through multiple news reports, the paralytic had not yet been administered. If that's the case, then the complaints amount to nothing more than "an unconscious person's lips moved." Not really a good argument for a "botched execution." They could at least argue over the 45 minutes it took to get a vein.

^ I've wondered the same thing. Science suggests that nitrogen or CO inhalation is a fairly painless death. I'm betting, though, that anti-death-penalty advocates would still find a way to fuss and fume over some random detail and turn it into a huge deal.

I would have more sympathy for their claims if they focused on the fact the state is actually killing someone, instead of focusing on often trifling details, details that are frequently of their own making. Their histrionics don't make me want to listen to what they have to say.

4/27/2017 9:17:28 AM

i mean it is still murder

my guess is that narcotics or nitrogen are not an option because they aren't painful enough, and some victims might even enjoy it

4/27/2017 9:37:13 AM

Quote :

"my guess is that narcotics or nitrogen are not an option because they aren't painful enough"

4/27/2017 10:05:58 AM

the pro state murder argument is wanting to punish criminals, letting someone euphorically pass out doesn't seem like a sufficient punishment to satisfy the bloodlust. What explanation do you have for pro state murder advocates wanting to go back to firing squads, hangings, and electric chairs if not a desire for violent vengeance?



[Edited on April 27, 2017 at 10:53 AM. Reason : sp]

4/27/2017 10:52:50 AM

Does anyone even argue that it is anything but that anymore?

The deterrent effect has been disproved for decades.

4/27/2017 10:55:38 AM

Quote :

"If that's the case, then the complaints amount to nothing more than "an unconscious person's lips moved." "

Agreed

Quote :

"^ I've wondered the same thing. Science suggests that nitrogen or CO inhalation is a fairly painless death. I'm betting, though, that anti-death-penalty advocates would still find a way to fuss and fume over some random detail and turn it into a huge deal."

Oklahoma just approved NO (Nitrogen Oxide) gas chambers recently. I'm not convinced its especially humane. We have plenty of evidence from earlier years of horrific executions when they where using cyanide gas, which kills people way more quickly than NO or CO would. Those "botched" executions where the original catalyst for developing lethal injection.

The thing about asphyxiation is that its greatly distressing up until the person is unconscious.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Lee_Gray
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Harding_(murderer)

Quote :

"Lohwasser's account of Gray's death sparked controversy, because of the suffering that Gray exhibited. At the time of Gray's execution, the gas chamber used in Mississippi had a vertical iron bar directly behind the inmate's chair. There was no headrest or strap used to restrain Gray's head. As Gray began breathing in the toxic gas, he started thrashing his head around, striking the iron bar repeatedly before he finally lost consciousness. Officials decided to clear the observation room eight minutes after the gas had been released, because of Gray's injuries.[3] The decision to clear the room was sharply criticized by Dennis Balske, Gray's attorney. "Jimmy Lee Gray died banging his head against a steel pole in the gas chamber while reporters counted his moans (eleven, according to the Associated Press)"."

Quote :

"Harding's execution is also noteworthy in that his asphyxiation in the gas chamber took 11 minutes before death was finally confirmed. The state attorney general, Grant Woods, was a witness at the execution and Harding spent his last moments cursing out Woods and giving him the middle finger. Contrary to media wire reports at the time, Woods claimed not to have become ill witnessing the execution.[1][2]"

:crack:

Quote :

"I would have more sympathy for their claims if they focused on the fact the state is actually killing someone, instead of focusing on often trifling details, details that are frequently of their own making. Their histrionics don't make me want to listen to what they have to say."

You must not follow the debate very closely. The number of "possibly innocent" people executed and arguments against the state being able to take a life are far and away the crux of anti-death penalty arguments. People resort to "botched" executions arguments in an effort to shock people's consciousness. There are just so many callous people willing to disregard the imperfections in our justice system or the authoritarian nature of the death penalty, because it doesn't affect them, "just them criminal thugs over there." If gruesome executions don't work, the fall back is the cost to tax payers to actually carry out an execution versus life imprisonment. If you can't pull on the humanity and empathy of a conservative, you can always pull on the strings of their wallets.

4/27/2017 10:57:28 AM

Quote :

"Oklahoma just approved NO (Nitrogen Oxide) gas chambers recently. I'm not convinced its especially humane. We have plenty of evidence from earlier years of horrific executions when they where using cyanide gas, which kills people way more quickly than NO or CO would. Those "botched" executions where the original catalyst for developing lethal injection. "

completely different things, nitrogen isn't killing by being toxic but because it is an inert gas that displaces oxygen. It causes asphyxia without the hypercapnic alarm response
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bag


[Edited on April 27, 2017 at 11:11 AM. Reason : .]

4/27/2017 11:04:33 AM

The body still goes into involuntary reactions as you gasp for air. Hell, you can't even have your dog put to sleep by gas chamber in like 10+ states.

I'm skeptical that inert gases don't cause involuntary gasping responses in that wiki link

[Edited on April 27, 2017 at 11:12 AM. Reason : Wiki link]

4/27/2017 11:08:24 AM

No, that is the hypercapnic alarm response which is caused by a build-up of CO2. Using nitrogen or other inert gasses they just pass out after a couple breaths and die in a few minutes with no panic.

Quote :

"I'm skeptical that inert gases don't cause involuntary gasping responses in that wiki link"

https://www.termedia.pl/Czasopismo/-82/Artykul-25129

Quote :

"After that, as in 2008. Ludwig Minelli, founder of the Swiss association Dignitas (Swiss law allows assisted suicide when the patient is terminally ill), filmed four patients who had committed suicide with helium, this method is gaining more and more supporters in the US, and Europe as a reliable, fast and painless [2]. "

videos exist online


[Edited on April 27, 2017 at 11:18 AM. Reason : .]

4/27/2017 11:13:16 AM

WELL I GUESS OKLAHOMA FINULLY GOT ONE RIGHT, CRANK UP DA GAZ CHAMBER BOYZ!!!!!!!

4/27/2017 11:22:20 AM

Quote :

"the pro state murder argument is wanting to punish criminals, letting someone euphorically pass out doesn't seem like a sufficient punishment to satisfy the bloodlust."

They typically use a barbiturate (Sodium thiopental) to induce unconsciousness before administering the shit that kills them. I don't know how euphoric the Sodium thiopental is, but given that it's widely used across medicine I don't think it satisfies some people's bloodlusty desire to punish people as they're put to death, and I think to most supporters the death itself is the punishment.

Apparently Propofol largely replaced it as an anesthetic, and that shit is fairly euphoric

4/27/2017 1:04:30 PM

Why do we even have a death penalty?

It obviously isn't a deterrent. You could put people to death for vandalism and they'd still do it.

I'm not sure it works as any type of retribution or closure for the families of victims. Personally if someone did something to my family that deserved the death penalty, I'd want to go after them myself, but since I can't do that, letting them rot in jail for the rest of their life would be far more satisfying, at least as far as retribution goes.

Maybe economics? Not sure how much administrative costs are involved with snuffing out a life, but it can't be as much as clothing and feeding someone for 40, 50, or 60 years.

4/27/2017 1:35:17 PM

it's not economics, it costs a lot more due to appeals

4/27/2017 2:29:19 PM

True, I didn't think about the legal processes behind the scenes.

4/27/2017 2:32:53 PM

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2014/05/01/considering-the-death-penalty-your-tax-dollars-at-work/

Quote :

"... capital cases (those where the death penalty is a potential punishment) are more expensive and take much more time to resolve than non-capital cases. According to a study by the Kansas Judicial Council, defending a death penalty case costs about four times as much as defending a case where the death penalty is not considered. In terms of costs, a report of the Washington State Bar Association found that death penalty cases are estimated to generate roughly $470,000 in additional costs to the prosecution and defense versus a similar case without the death penalty; that doesn't take into account the cost of court personnel. Even when a trial wasn't necessary (because of a guilty plea), those cases where the death penalty was sought still cost about twice as much as those where death was not sought. Citing Richard C. Dieter of the non-partisan Death Penalty Information Center, Fox News has reported that studies have 'uniformly and conservatively shown that a death-penalty trial costs $1 million more than one in which prosecutors seek life without parole.' And let's not forget about appeals: in Idaho, the State Appellate Public Defenders office spent about 44 times more time on a typical death penalty appeal than on a life sentence appeal: almost 8,000 hours per capital defendant compared to about 180 hours per non-death penalty defendant. New York state projected that the death penalty costs the state $1.8 million per case just through trial and initial appeal. It costs more to house death penalty prisoners, as well. In Kansas, housing prisoners on death row costs more than twice as much per year ($49,380) as for prisoners in the general population ($24,690). In California, incarceration costs for death penalty prisoners totaled more than $1 billion from 1978 to 2011 (total costs outside of incarceration were another $3 billion). By the numbers, the annual cost of the death penalty in the state of California is $137 million compared to the cost of lifetime incarceration of $11.5 million..."

[Edited on April 27, 2017 at 2:36 PM. Reason : ]

4/27/2017 2:35:25 PM

Holy cow. Those are some stark differences.

So again, why do we have such a hard-on for the death penalty?

4/27/2017 2:49:14 PM

Did you read Grumpy's posts ITT?

4/27/2017 2:53:20 PM