Quote :

" Per capita firearm murder rate of Illinois is much lower than that of NC"

So it doesn't matter if they die, just whether they die from a gunshot? Sorry, I didn't realize death by stabbing or beating was preferable.

1/1/2013 9:16:00 PM

Well I was only responding to your non point

Anyways,

Quote :

" Can someone post the support behind the claim that CCW carriers commit fewer crimes/felonies (it's been stated both ways) than LEOs I want to see the qualifiers to this claim 1/1/2013 4:29:52 PM"

A search only yielded people saying it



[Edited on January 1, 2013 at 9:40 PM. Reason : But yes, those things are preferable ]

1/1/2013 9:39:15 PM

Quote :

"But yes, those things are preferable"

1/1/2013 9:41:44 PM

^^Really? Death by stabbing or beating is preferable to getting shot? What the fuck is wrong with you?

1/1/2013 10:27:42 PM

When we are talking about ways to reduce murder and what to control, yes those are lower priority

Please respond to my question

1/1/2013 10:50:00 PM

Last I checked, whether you died by gunshot or died by beating...you are still dead.

1/1/2013 11:07:37 PM

Quote :

"Can someone post the support behind the claim that CCW carriers commit fewer crimes/felonies (it's been stated both ways) than LEOs"

I'll look later when I'm in front of an actual computer but there is no study on ccw vs LEOs. There are different reports showing breakdowns. It basically comes down to LEOs being roughly in line with the general population (lower on robbery but higher on sexual assault IIRC) whereas ccw holders are 75-25% as likely to commit crimes as the general population depending on state. It's higher level misdemeanors and felony stuff. Most of the ccw stuff is really easy to find simply by looking at the number of permits revoked as pretty much any serious crime is an automatic revocation of the license (basically DUI and up with some being slightly harsher depending on state).

I used to have some of the studies saved but my laptop bit the dust and its too much of a pain to go through all the studies to find the relevant ones on my ipad.

Also, my "non-point" was a completely relevant example IN THE UNITED STATES that your ideas on gun control do absolutely nothing to curb violent crime. Sorry it's not merry ol' England but I figure the US is slightly more relevant than, I don't know, another freaking country halfway around the world. Oh yeah, you're an idiot. From now on, when a woman is beaten to death by her abusive husband or a kid is stabbed to death on his way home from school, be sure to tell their loved ones "Hey, at least they weren't shot!" I'm sure that will be a lot of comfort. Thank you for demonstrating the idiocy and absolute complete lack of intelligence used to strip us of our rights through gun control. "Remember kids, you'll be happier if Johnny kills you with a brick or knife than if he had just shot you in the head!"

[Edited on January 1, 2013 at 11:30 PM. Reason : Why can't it be painful to be that stupid?]

1/1/2013 11:21:27 PM

Banjoman HAS to be trolling at this point......

1/1/2013 11:30:39 PM

Not trolling, that fact is that I think that the NRA's "scientific" evidence for supporting concealed weapons is an example of how the people are being mislead by what they believe is the TRUTH (i.e. science) because they don't truly understand it.

1/1/2013 11:40:50 PM

The only study I've found regarding CCW and LEO was looking at a single area, and even still was not anything decent. If you're going to keep citing that, you need to support it.

1/1/2013 11:53:50 PM

And look, dumb fuck, when something makes it very easy to kill people and is responsible for most murders (by a huge majority in some places about 80%) then for the sake of discussing ways to reduce the number of murders you start with that and stabbings and beatings are less important. This is common sense you fat crayon using retard.

Also, your implied claim that other methods will simply replace guns does not hold water. Australia's reforms and buy back program did not result in an offsetting increase of other murders, the total numbers dropped. This is obvious to anyone who looks at it critically and does not just simply accept what the NRA says without thinking about it.

Of course you are a fucking mouth breathing moron and should have been left to drip out of your mothers asshole and will find something silly to argue about for 3 pages like the historical value of guns that would otherwise not be collected anyways, but whatever.

God damn idiots

Roll Tide

1/2/2013 12:02:03 AM

I think John Lott made/makes the claim about CCW/LEO. I, too, looked a while back and couldn't find the hard #s. I don't really necessarily doubt it, but haven't seen the proof, either.

1/2/2013 12:08:56 AM

I have never understood the supposed connection between intelligence and breathing through your nose.

I mean breathing through your nose is generally easier unless you are sick, but it doesn't really make me feel smarter.

1/2/2013 12:21:04 AM

Quote :

"Also, your implied claim that other methods will simply replace guns does not hold water. Australia's reforms and buy back program did not result in an offsetting increase of other murders, the total numbers dropped. This is obvious to anyone who looks at it critically and does not just simply accept what the NRA says without thinking about it."

This is what I am saying. The NRA has found sly ways to make things look scientific and deceiving. It is bad, punch-line science.

Nobody has yet to address the escalation issue which is a pretty serious threat to the future of this society. Having more people walking around with guns self propagates the desire of the people to carry a weapon. This is scary to me. Take this pizza shop shooting idiot, now that people like him are free to walk around with a gun, what is to say that Bob will not get a license to carry a gun to protect himself from people like him?



[Edited on January 2, 2013 at 1:22 AM. Reason : s]

1/2/2013 1:18:26 AM

The Brady Campaign has found sly ways to make things look scientific and deceiving.

1/2/2013 7:21:38 AM

look at chicago... record number of murders this year. violent crimes skyrocketing. oh and they outlawed handguns.

1/2/2013 9:45:17 AM

Philadelphia doesn't have a gun ban and their murder rate is up 23% from 2011

But go on thinking your Chicago canard means anything

1/2/2013 9:50:24 AM

both sides of this argument are stupid. there are a multitude of factors besides gun bans that affect the crime rates in these cities.

1/2/2013 9:54:25 AM

Quote :

"Also, your implied claim that other methods will simply replace guns does not hold water. Australia's reforms and buy back program did not result in an offsetting increase of other murders, the total numbers dropped. This is obvious to anyone who looks at it critically and does not just simply accept what the NRA says without thinking about it."

Or you can ACTUALLY look at the data instead of listening to gun control activists that would have you believe Australia is now Disneyland.

Australia's murder rate has declined since 1993, BEFORE the gun ban took place. It has dropped from 1.9 in 1989 to 1.3 in 2007. Overall, we're talking about ~50 fewer murders. The drop started before the ban took place and there has been no dramatic decrease as you want us to think.

What is pretty dramatic to me is that violent crime is still UP in Australia. Where's the extra safety? Both rape and assault are at a high point. I thought they would be safer? Basically, there's a small decrease in what was already a low murder rate.

How about the fact that the United States murder rate has basically halved between 1991 and 2010? We've had a larger drop than Australia while guns and ccw permits are at an all-time high. But that can't be significant because guns are omg scary.



from http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/violent%20crime.html

[Edited on January 2, 2013 at 10:03 AM. Reason : link]

1/2/2013 10:00:54 AM

Quote :

"Philadelphia doesn't have a gun ban and their murder rate is up 23% from 2011 But go on thinking your Chicago canard means anything"

Look at Australia where a gun ban has meant basically nothing in terms of murder rate reduction and violent crimes are higher than before the ban.

But go on thinking your Australia canard means anything.

1/2/2013 10:02:06 AM

Quote :

"Tough guy, here. Odds are, you'd fumble your goddamn gun the moment you realized what was happening, and then accidentally shoot your dog. "

\

I see this, and other similar statements quite often. Implying that gun owners are uneducated, untrained, uncontrollable morons who don't know how to use firearms. Where is the proof to back this up? Do you just like throwing false assumptions around and making yourself feel better by belittling others?

1/2/2013 10:09:00 AM

We all have the idiot friend on Facebook that owns too many weapons and the extent of their "training" is MW3.

Not surprisingly in an emotionally-charged debate responsible gun owners are stereotyped with these people.

It doesnt matter how many classes you take, how many times a week you go to the range, how much training you might have from your high-intensity job (police, military), etc. You're always going to be a HS student dressed in black.

This can be summed up more easily if you just accept that JHC is a simpleton.

1/2/2013 10:35:00 AM

^^^^ they control for that in the study, it dropped more than could be explained by the time trend

1/2/2013 11:04:08 AM

Quote :

"Australia != The United States of America. "It happened somewhere else in the Universe" is not a compelling argument. "

-disco_stu

1/2/2013 11:11:07 AM

Quote :

"And look, dumb fuck, "

Quote :

"This is common sense you fat crayon using retard."

Quote :

"Of course you are a fucking mouth breathing moron and should have been left to drip out of your mothers asshole"

Quote :

"God damn idiots "

You make some great points and really continue to build your credibility.

1/2/2013 12:45:00 PM

The guy insulted me randomly out of nowhere, look at his language. That's why I called him out for using fat crayons.

Dumb ass

1/2/2013 12:46:06 PM

^You "called him out". Congrats.

[Edited on January 2, 2013 at 12:55 PM. Reason : Childish responses]

1/2/2013 12:54:43 PM

Yes, his post was pretty childish, I agree

1/2/2013 12:58:19 PM

Quote :

"Not surprisingly in an emotionally-charged debate responsible gun owners are stereotyped with these people."

It's not that I stereotype responsible gun owners with these people; I'm convinced that these people vastly outnumber "responsible gun owners".

Someone with military training (who isn't a psychopath), I implicitly trust with firearms in public. John Q Public I'm worried about accidentally shooting me or someone else trying to hit the bad guy. Active shooting events are fucking chaos.

1/2/2013 1:01:22 PM

^^The old "I know he is but what am I?" argument! Well done.

1/2/2013 1:04:24 PM

Quote :

"I see this, and other similar statements quite often. Implying that gun owners are uneducated, untrained, uncontrollable morons who don't know how to use firearms. Where is the proof to back this up?"

It's a pretty commonly held fact that gun owners are statistically more likely to shoot their own family members than any intruders. And I promise you that every single one of those shooters considered themselves a "trained, responsible firearm owner." This stands to reason considering the relative ease that one can attain a gun and the lack of training required in many states.

Quote :

"Do you just like throwing false assumptions around and making yourself feel better by belittling others?"

Yeah, kinda. I'd say that's one of the main reasons why I still post on this board. It amuses me.

Quote :

"It doesnt matter how many classes you take, how many times a week you go to the range, how much training you might have from your high-intensity job (police, military), etc. You're always going to be a HS student dressed in black."

Pretty much. With the exception of law enforcement or military (and really, even THEY fuck up...quite a bit), I'd agree that most gun-owners are fantasists. So unless they're just people who only use their gun at the range for sport, people who carry at all times are paranoid losers with a hero complex who will likely use their gun on their spouse for making too much noise in the kitchen late at night.

If I walked around all day with a 6" blade on me at all times, even during simple tasks like watering my plants and taking the dog for a walk, or kept one near my night stand late at night, people would think I was a goddamn lunatic --- as they should. But replace that knife with a gun, and all of a sudden I can declare myself a trained and responsible person?

Yeah, okay. Now if you'll excuse me, I gotta go to the range and practice my stabbin'.

1/2/2013 1:04:48 PM

Quote :

"or kept one near my night stand late at night,"

you don't keep a weapon near your bed? that's just stupid. have you never known someone who's been woken up in the middle of the night by a burglar/raper/killer? It happened to my neighbor in the apartment next to me. Luckily he was able to wrestle the knife away from the intruder, stab him, and kill him, but he ended up with a lot of stab-marks to his neck.

1/2/2013 1:08:50 PM

^^So, by your reasoning because I carry a gun in my day to day life I'm a paranoid loser with a hero complex?

Have you ever met me? How can you assume so much about a person, just from the fact that they may choose to carry a gun? I'm a nice guy, I run a successful business that many on tww have been extremely happy with...but yet I'm a paranoid loser with a hero complex because of one simple choice I make in the morning when I put my gun in my pocket?

[Edited on January 2, 2013 at 1:12 PM. Reason : .]

1/2/2013 1:10:49 PM

Yes.

You have an opinion and lifestyle that runs contrary to his beliefs.

This isn't allowed in TWW bizzaro world; not without ill-founded temper tantrums and name calling.

...or you can just accept my previously discussed theory on how hes an angry simpleton.


[Edited on January 2, 2013 at 1:24 PM. Reason : -]

1/2/2013 1:17:57 PM

JHC just admitted to trolling you guys and you're still replying to him

1/2/2013 1:20:34 PM

I thought trolls weren't allowed in SB

[Edited on January 2, 2013 at 1:26 PM. Reason : .]

1/2/2013 1:25:55 PM

I'm not trolling. I just genuinely think you guys are weird, and I enjoy being a dick and shooting holes (tehehehe) in your weak sauce logic.

1/2/2013 1:30:37 PM

Quote :

"Pretty much. With the exception of law enforcement or military (and really, even THEY fuck up...quite a bit), I'd agree that most gun-owners are fantasists. So unless they're just people who only use their gun at the range for sport, people who carry at all times are paranoid losers with a hero complex who will likely use their gun on their spouse for making too much noise in the kitchen late at night."

you're an idiot.

and to suggest you're shooting holes in anyone's logic is laughable...that would require something other than your own biased speculation.

[Edited on January 2, 2013 at 1:47 PM. Reason : .]

1/2/2013 1:44:15 PM

Quote :

"We all have the idiot friend on Facebook that owns too many weapons and the extent of their "training" is MW3. Not surprisingly in an emotionally-charged debate responsible gun owners are stereotyped with these people."

In fairness, a large capacity semi-automatic assault rifle is a toy, and it isn't surprising that others view you as childish for having one. It serves no purpose that a safer cheaper gun couldn't serve.

Quote :

"So, by your reasoning because I carry a gun in my day to day life I'm a paranoid loser with a hero complex?"

Yep. The fact that you are willing to invest so much in an object that you would use so little is why I think that. I mean if you were a repo man and you lived in a dangerous neighborhood, I could see needing to carry a weapon on you. But if you live in a safe neighborhood, which a safe job, you are being either very paranoid for feeling the need to have this weapon on you, or very childish for living as a make-believe John McClane.

1/2/2013 2:08:29 PM

^Thats your opinion, and thats perfectly fine. However calling others "paranoid losers with a hero complex" just because of their opinions and actions is ignorant and childish.

1/2/2013 2:15:06 PM

Quote :

"But if you live in a safe neighborhood, which a safe job, you are being either very paranoid for feeling the need to have this weapon on you, or very childish for living as a make-believe John McClane."

Because those kids were going to school in a bad neighborhood and should have known better. All of those stupid people in Aurora should have chosen another theater. Morons at VT obviously should have gone to a safer school. Obviously you're perfectly safe as long as you stay in "safe" places.

Quote :

"^^^^ they control for that in the study, it dropped more than could be explained by the time trend"

So it dropped by an extra what? The entire blip from the mid-nineties to now is basically statistically nothing. Now you want to say that there were 5 less murders? 10? Fine. I'll give you that the gun ban in Australia resulted in 20 fewer murders and a lot more violence as soon as you give me the increase purchasing of firearms and ccw permits in the United States is responsible for nearly half of the drop in the murder rate here.

[Edited on January 2, 2013 at 2:23 PM. Reason : .]

1/2/2013 2:18:04 PM

^^If you can't judge them by their opinions and actions then how can you judge anyone on anything? Should I consider Westboro Baptist Church members "reasonable human beings with a right to express their opinions at funerals"? Should I consider Al Queda militants reasonable human beings with the right to express their opinions through explosives?

Why do you feel the need to carry a firearm all the time? Do you live and work in a safe area? If so, why do you think you need it? (keep in mind the answer "you're never completely safe" would justify me labelling you as paranoid).

[Edited on January 2, 2013 at 2:22 PM. Reason : ]

1/2/2013 2:21:48 PM

^do you wear your seatbelt?

1/2/2013 2:24:14 PM

^^Opinions arent the problem. Its the fact that you and several others feel the need to make light of gun owners opinions with childish responses.

I carry a gun because I feel the need to. Further than that, the reason really does not matter...it will only be shoved back in our faces that we (gun owners) are paranoid.

I carry a gun, you don't. Different strokes...

[Edited on January 2, 2013 at 2:27 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on January 2, 2013 at 2:28 PM. Reason : .]

1/2/2013 2:27:20 PM

There is a psychology aspect to it and its one that probably should be looked at if we are in a "gun control" discussion. Of course, that discussion shouldn't involve people saying you're a paranoid freak.

1/2/2013 2:29:55 PM

^^don't bother trying to defend your reasonable rights and beliefs in this cesspool. you'll get nothing but more trolling.

yes, it is unlikely i will encounter a violent situation that would benefit from me having a gun in my everday life...but regardless of what neighborhood you live in or what circles you walk in, bad things can happen to anybody. i don't carry, but i have absolutely no problem with people who do. and you can bet i have a 12-gauge ready to go if someone tries to break into my home.

it's so cute when liberals stereotype gun owners and call them names...Not only does it undermine their credibility on the subject, it's also ironic because those are two things that get liberals so butthurt when it comes to other issues.

[Edited on January 2, 2013 at 2:35 PM. Reason : ^]

1/2/2013 2:35:39 PM

Quote :

"do you wear your seatbelt?"

Where do I start with this? For one, car accidents happen far more often than murders. Secondly, putting on a seatbelt involves no more investment than a fraction of a second to put it on. Further, a wearing a seatbelt doesn't pose any danger to anyone.

Quote :

"the fact that you and several others feel the need to make light of gun owners opinions with childish responses."

Quote :

"Of course, that discussion shouldn't involve people saying you're a paranoid freak."

If you carry one on you at all times, and you're not a repo man in Oakland, you're either paranoid or childish.

1/2/2013 2:36:29 PM

Quote :

"Why do you feel the need to carry a firearm all the time? Do you live and work in a safe area? If so, why do you think you need it? (keep in mind the answer "you're never completely safe" would justify me labelling you as paranoid). "

i have to assume this is just trolling. would you like some anecdotal evidence of folks who were assaulted/murdered in areas most folks would consider "safe"?

[Edited on January 2, 2013 at 2:38 PM. Reason : asdf]

1/2/2013 2:37:46 PM

Quote :

"In fairness, a large capacity semi-automatic assault rifle is a toy, and it isn't surprising that others view you as childish for having one. It serves no purpose that a safer cheaper gun couldn't serve."

No gun is a toy, and no modern gun is inherently more safe or dangerous than any other gun. Go back to the 60s or 70s and find weapons without a safety or transfer bar. Those might be more dangerous in the hands of a careless person.

ARs and AKs were not designed to be luxury items. This idea you have is completely ludicrous.

[Edited on January 2, 2013 at 2:47 PM. Reason : -]

1/2/2013 2:45:55 PM

^^Great response

1/2/2013 2:48:10 PM