Quote :

"Where's your outrage at Herb's regression? "

I was merely saying something stupid and irrelevant just like you dumbass. I'm not harping on anything.

I have no clue what Herb's record is and I could give a fuck if Arizona State lost every game this year.

[Edited on December 28, 2010 at 6:13 PM. Reason : I guess I should have said I can't believe Sidney is as bad as Larry Shyatt]

12/28/2010 6:12:20 PM

still credible

12/28/2010 6:16:32 PM

When someone is playing as lazily as most of the lineup (Leslie stood out) in the second half of the game today, they need to be benched. I don't care who they're playing and what the score is. It just makes it look like Sid is ok with dicking around when it's not UNC on the other side of the court, and that's never worked for anyone.

12/28/2010 6:18:04 PM

sigh.

31 points isn't good enough.

12/28/2010 6:25:23 PM

good god are you fucking serious

find something else to care about, christ

12/28/2010 6:28:15 PM

31 points is plenty for me, we just need to do that against all of the shitty teams we play.

12/28/2010 7:35:21 PM

We REALLY need the ooc teams we lost to do well this season. If those teams all finish at or near the top of their conference then it makes our lack of quality OOC wins much more explainable.

GTown and Cuse could challenge Pitt in the big east which would be huge since the big east top seeds will command a lot of respect.

Wisconsin looks like the 2nd best team in the big10, which would be great since OSU looks unstoppable right now

Arizona looks like the clearcut #2 in the Pac10 which is great bc everyone recognizes washington has a strong team.

It would also be nice if george mason can keep rolling, they got a big road win in 2OT vs a good duquesne team last week. If they can win their conference convincingly it gives us one quallty win on a neutral court.

12/29/2010 10:12:54 AM

As far as conference play goes:
Duke is a lock, hopefully they run the table since we play them twice

Unc, maryland, and FSU all look really strong so we prob can't finish ahead of them so hopefully they all do well since we have 5 games against them. We need to win 1 of those and 2 would be huge.

After that you really have VT, clemson, and BC duking it out on the bubble. We need to add ourselves to that mix which we can do if tracy gets healthy and we win some games.

VT has a huge loss to UVA but BC has a huge road win vs UMD. Clemson has an expected road loss to FSU.

If we can finish 6th somehow at 9-7, we get an easy #11 opponent (uva or GT) and a good crack a the #3 seed in the ACC tournament and we'd be a strong bubble candidate.

8-8 which is more reasonable, we need some help from the teams we lost to, a few bubble chokers, and some love from the selection committee for tracys extended absence

12/29/2010 10:55:36 AM

When you look at our ACC schedule we have 7 games where we are heavy underdogs (~10pts or more):

@Duke, vs Duke, @UNC, @UMD, @FSU, @BC, @Clemson.

You can't stomp your feet and pout all you want but those are tough games for us to win, period. If we get one win out of that group good, if we get two then that's nirvana.

There are 4 games we better win.
Vs Wake, @Wake, vs GT, vs Miami

We need all 4 of those wins,period.

So if you are scoring at home we are 4-7 or 5-6 right now with 5 season defining games left to evaluate.

@UVA, vs VT, vs FSU, vs Clem, vs UNC

To get to 10-6 like some of you crazies want we'd have to win all 5 of those, all four must wins, plus a major upset. You can see now how unlikely that is.

9-7 means we'd need 4 of those 5 plus a major upset and all our must wins. You can see now how that's unlikely.

The more reasonable scenario is for us to win all of our must wins, sneak 1 upset, and go 3-2 in the toss up games.

Then we need 1-2 ACC tourney wins, and some good fortune which we are due for.

Please note that our last 7 regular season games only one is in the major upset group. Which leaves 6 winnable games to close the season to give us the appearance of "coming together".


Our first 9 ACC games contain 6 games we are highly unlikey to win. I am pointing that out because I already know you guys are going to freak out at our "slow start" in the ACC when in reality that is just how the schedule plays out. We are frontloaded with games we are unlikely to win and backloaded with games we can win.

12/29/2010 11:08:25 AM

Still not sold on BC. I just don't see it with them and I think people are calling them a "good team" this year because the ACC is so mediocre, but you are right in that our last 8 are definitely easier than our first 8.

Quote :

"Is it just a coincidence that NYM has a tendency to keep out of these discussions?"

This was from a few pages back, but I think I've made myself more than clear with regards to your point. It's obviously a bit harsher now that Tracy has missed some time but I feel that we should make a move and look elsewhere if we don't make the NCAA Tournament. I'm not willing to sit through another Herb situation where the fanbase is fractured and we hold on year to year pointing to injuries, bad luck and other things like we did with Herb (while making the NCAAs every year).

Now that doesn't mean I'm going to rant and rave like a lunatic if we retain Lowe after this year, even if we fail to make the tournament... but that is my opinion.

[Edited on December 29, 2010 at 1:07 PM. Reason : x]

12/29/2010 1:03:18 PM

^ be fair, herb didn't make the tournament either his first five years.

This is sidneys 4th and we are on the upswing. We are a certain tournament team in his 6th year, a somewhat likely one in his 5th year, and with a healthy roster we were a tournament team in this his 4th year.

12/29/2010 1:56:16 PM

Quote :

"be fair, herb didn't make the tournament either his first five years."

you are really trying to compare herb's first five years with sid's five years?

be fair, that isn't fair at all.

12/29/2010 2:03:34 PM

You're right herb had a senior laden team in year 5 with all his own recruits when we botched the season and missed the tournament.

You idiots are about to run off sidney with freshman and sophomores who are better in year 4 while their all american is injured.

Thanks for helping my argument

12/29/2010 2:14:40 PM

It's year 5...

[Edited on December 29, 2010 at 2:33 PM. Reason : and our talent is mainly freshman, yes...]

12/29/2010 2:32:49 PM

Talent is definitely underclassmen-heavy, but after watching poorly run offensive and defensive sets in year 5, you have to be concerned as to how this team is being taught.

12/29/2010 2:38:43 PM

Quote :

"but after watching poorly run offensive and defensive sets"

This statement is parroted so much I think some of you actually believe it. Those same sets have won us many games against much more talented opponents. Also when specifics instances are brought up there are well reasoned rebuttals (the same can be said about the supposed substitution woes). JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE!

12/29/2010 2:49:01 PM

Our offensive efficiency under Lowe has been ranked the following in the ACC:

06-07: 9th
07-08: 11th
08-09: 4th
09-10: 11th

I don't think it's a stretch to say that our offense has been a problem under Lowe compared to the rest of the conference. Unfortunately our one good year offensively we were absolutely atrocious defensively. Dead last in the conference by 45 spots...

[Edited on December 29, 2010 at 2:55 PM. Reason : also our tempo, for those who expected a more exciting offense, was 11th or 12th every year]

12/29/2010 2:53:58 PM

We've never had good guards jesus everyone knows that's why our offense has sucked.

We've had shooting guards that can't shoot straight and as much as I like javi he has never developed into an ACC caliber PG.

We've had good forwards, and now we finally have good guards. Except they aren't good yet they are freshmen. Let them get good, then you will want Lowe to stay.

We are so close to being a top program again what the hell are you guys doing?! Why take a chance at starting from scratch again when the pieces are all there?!

12/29/2010 2:58:47 PM

How would we be starting from scratch? I think a new coach could come in and be successful immediately, provided it's the right coach. But please, continue with whatever fabricated doomsday scenario you envision if we fire Lowe.

[Edited on December 29, 2010 at 3:02 PM. Reason : .]

12/29/2010 3:00:10 PM

just decided to put this here since this thread was at the top of the page

Chris Singleton (FSU) writing for ESPN about the 5 toughest players to guard in the ACC:

Quote :

"Tracy Smith at N.C. State is an undersized big man, but I feel that he's the difference in their success. [Editor's note: Smith is still sitting out from arthroscopic knee surgery in November.] He can finish with the left hand; he can finish with the right. And just like I said about Williams from Maryland, he knows his body. He's explosive when he gets the ball. Just from film, I've seen him catch the ball and go right up to dunk it. He's a smart player, and he wedges himself and uses his body tremendously. He's just a dynamic person to play against. He has a little Hakeem Olajuwon shimmy shake that he uses sometimes. That he knows his body and knows that he's shorter than some of the big guys in our league, helps him be an effective scorer. "

The other 4 were Singler, Delaney, Jordan Williams, and Andre Young

12/29/2010 3:26:18 PM

06-07: 9th - Starting PG out for most of the season with injury (when Atsur played we were pretty damn impressive)
07-08: 11th-Lost our starting PG early in the season.
08-09: 4th- Had the (non-ACC caliber) guards we expected.
09-10: 11th- Very little talent on this team. 2 4 stars (one of which was taylor made for the Sendek system). Would most likely have been a better year with the addition of the expected 5* guard Brown.

12/29/2010 4:39:15 PM

I mean, really I don't have the coach's eye to say what is a good designed offensive set, what is being ran, who is running it incorrectly, etc, etc. I know how to run some easy sets from my pathetic high school point guard days, but I don't know the roles of everyone on the court in an advanced offensive system.

The only time I've ever really complained about that is playing Syracuse's zone, which is and has always been a 2-3 under Boeheim. I mean I know the best way to attempt break down that zone so I'm sure Sidney Lowe does too obviously, but for one reason or another we decided to pass it corner to wing to center to wing to corner without ever so much as seeing anyone flash to the FT line or the elbows. Since I'm convinced that Lowe understands that is one of the best ways to beat that 2-3 zone, I have to assume the players are retards.

^ and fwiw, we had more than 2 4*'s last season. Tracy, Howell and Painter -- none of which were recruited "in to Herb's system"

[Edited on December 29, 2010 at 4:51 PM. Reason : x]

12/29/2010 4:47:54 PM

how about we get a coach that can win games without everything being perfect?

12/29/2010 4:48:05 PM

no should sid go after this season. Thread must die.

12/29/2010 4:54:11 PM

Wake Forest got rid of their coach who didn't know how to coach after 2 years (and he did a whole lot better than Sid)

there's no need to stretch out the fail for more time than necessary

12/29/2010 5:02:22 PM

There are plenty of examples of schools hanging on to coaches with bad starts who eventually turn things around

Like your example, neither is relevant

[Edited on December 29, 2010 at 5:19 PM. Reason : Wake is looking really great, too]

12/29/2010 5:19:30 PM

I don't think that Wake made a very good hire (Bzzjflsajfas;f had a losing record at Colorado)

I'm not sure the comparison between Dino and Sid is irrelevant though. Neither one showed (or has shown) that they really were better than average coaches.

The ACC is down in general because of poor coaches imo

[Edited on December 29, 2010 at 5:23 PM. Reason : ]

12/29/2010 5:23:18 PM

Quote :

"when specifics instances are brought up there are well reasoned rebuttals"

Please enlighten me on these specific instances of effective set plays. I'm not a basketball tactician by any means, but this is what I see employed.

1) Screen at the top to give Wood a quick shot at a three. It's great if he's shooting well.
2) Pick and roll in the low post. Works ok but not as good as it could be. Bad passing hurts us here.
3) One-on-one. Groan.

12/29/2010 5:36:10 PM

Pick and roll was a thing of beauty with Atsur. Also KILLED duke last year with it. (Has to be run with an effective guard)
[quote]and fwiw, we had more than 2 4*'s last season. Tracy, Howell and Painter -- none of which were recruited "in to Herb's system[quote]
I forgot Howell and Painter because they were pretty ineffective (Howell injured and Painter raw). I was referring to Horner who was a 4*


[Edited on December 29, 2010 at 5:40 PM. Reason : asdfad]

[Edited on December 29, 2010 at 5:40 PM. Reason : asdf]

12/29/2010 5:37:16 PM

Quote :

"Wake Forest got rid of their coach who didn't know how to coach after 2 years"

Duke fans wanted K fired after year 3, and UNC fans hanged an effigy of Dean early in his career to show how much they wanted him gone

not saying Sid will ever be anywhere near K or Dean...just saying these are a couple hall of fame coaches who did not sit well with their fanbase early on

i'm also just saying that any 'get a rope' comments are probably talking about how classless UNC fans are

12/29/2010 7:00:11 PM

It's not smart to make a decision by pointing to 2 outliers and suggesting that we might also be as lucky.

The predominant case is the one where a coach gets hired, he starts our shitty, fans hate him, he stays shitty, he gets fired.

12/29/2010 7:16:59 PM

agreed, and I'm not saying Lowe will ever approach Smith or K, but its also not smart to make a decision before the season is over

12/29/2010 7:18:38 PM

Quote :

"how about we get a coach that can win games without everything being perfect?"

12/29/2010 7:22:48 PM

yeah, he should be able to will his team to win over deeper, more talented, more mature teams

HOW DARE HE NOT DO THAT

MOTHERFUCKER

RIDE HIS ASS OUT ON A RAIL

12/29/2010 7:49:36 PM

How many years do you need to build a class? If I'm not mistaken, each player gets 4 years of eligibility. After scrapping together what was left of the 2006 class, he's had 4 full years of recruiting to get the players he wants into the program. Yes, I know it's important to build relationships with blue chip athletes early, but recruiting is only one cog in the basketball product.

I love how he was able to get Leslie on board as a freshman and spotting Harrow before anyone else did. I'm just concerned that through 5 years of coaching there is still a bewilderment of offensive execution and substitution patterns. He doesn't have to beat UNC and Duke twice a season but the team should look like a more polished product than what I see now.

12/29/2010 8:28:36 PM

hey ST, let me tell you how i feel about this right now (and always):

when you hire a guy who has never in his life coached a college team, you have to spot him a year or two accounting for the fact that he knows absolutely no one in the high school/aau basketball scene. he has no relationships w/ freshmen and sophomores that he can potentially bring to his new school. he knows not a single high school coach in the country.

also, we lost almost our whole contributing team from sendek's last year, so having made the tournament (like that's an accomplishment) is not really relevant, b/c he did not inherit a tournament team by any means.

also, wake forest is your model basketball program? i don't know if they have a new AD since prosser died, but prosser was a coach with a resume even less impressive than herb sendek, and as far as i know he was nowhere near being fired. and they made a terrible hire.

12/29/2010 9:21:14 PM

^ Those are all legit. While I like Sid as a person, those are all reasons that it was just a flat out terrible hire to begin with.

A college coach needs to be familiar with coaching the college game and needs to have a lot of AAU connections.

That said, Lowe has found his groove recruiting, it's just evident at this point that talent is not the problem. In 5 years we've never played a lick of defense, we don't play 'team ball'...we run this NBA isolation shit where 4 people stand around and watch, and we obviously don't practice fundamentals (rebounding, for instance).

The NBA you assemble and direct an offense with professional athletes. In college, you have to teach this stuff, and it doesn't appear Lowe does.

Quote :

"We are so close to being a top program again"

Yes.

We've finished every year in the cellar of the ACC....BUT WE'RE SO CLOSE!

[Edited on December 29, 2010 at 9:50 PM. Reason : ]

12/29/2010 9:46:51 PM

Quote :

" it's just evident at this point that talent is not the problem."

We JUST got the talent

Like two months ago

12/29/2010 9:55:24 PM

I'm more referring to the fact that all the talent in the world won't make this team do stuff it needs to do to win...like play defense and rebound. (Although Smith would help us rebound, admittedly)

I'd think talent was the problem if this team played balls-to-the-wall for 40 minutes, gave it thier all, and just weren't good enough.

I don't see that. I see a team with no offensive identity, no defensive identity, and has the exact same problems each year regardless of the players

12/29/2010 9:59:10 PM

double post

[Edited on December 29, 2010 at 9:59 PM. Reason : ..]

12/29/2010 9:59:38 PM

FACT: we had top 25 recruiting classes in both 2005 and 2007

12/29/2010 10:01:54 PM

2005 was Costner/McCauley/Fells

Three guys recruited for a different system (LOL LOWE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A SYSTEM) who were entirely infective because of shitty attitudes and injuries

2007 was a highly rated class because of Hickson and Smith. Smith turned into an all-ACC player and would make this a massively better team if he were healthy

Stop bringing weak shit, armor

Quote :

"'d think talent was the problem if this team played balls-to-the-wall for 40 minutes, gave it thier all, and just weren't good enough. I don't see that. I see a team with no offensive identity, no defensive identity, and has the exact same problems each year regardless of the players"

My point -- and I've been saying this all along are you guys even listening -- is give Lowe at least a full year with the new guys before you evaluate them. They're already starting to find their step -- if they're show no progress by March, then you can make a fuss about it.

[Edited on December 29, 2010 at 10:07 PM. Reason : ]

12/29/2010 10:05:25 PM

Ok so first you argue that he didn't have talent, then when I demonstrate that he did you change your argument and make excuses for why he didn't do anything with it...I'm the one bringing weak shit? come on.

12/29/2010 10:09:51 PM

I just pray we can get some leadership from the point guard position. Javi certainly is not it. I hope that one day Harrow becomes that kind of player.

Javi has to be on of the worst decision makers as a senior guard in ACC history.

While i don't think PG play will fix all of our problems (defense, rebounding), I do think our offense would look a good bit better. And Wood learning how to hit a mid-range jumper coupled with Brown getting more consistent and stronger will help, too.

Still don't think we'll ever be any good with the pitiful defensive effort I've ever seen by a Lowe team. We need to hire Nolan Richardson as an assistant and teach the "40 minutes of hell" defense. At the very least we need to shake up the staff and bring in a defensive specialist

[Edited on December 29, 2010 at 10:19 PM. Reason : ]

12/29/2010 10:15:02 PM

Quote :

"We JUST got the talent Like two months ago"

last years class brought in good, top level acc talent. the kind of guys that will still get shit on by duke and unc (when they arent headed by larry drew) in the long run but should be competing with the top of the acc and other good bcs programs otherwise

are they? outside of the games scott wood plays in the state of florida, no

we have some more sick talent now, let's get a good coach before theyre gone and youre saying "the 2010 class had brown, leslie and harrow. harrow turned into a great ACC player and our team will be a lot better when he gets back from his yearly anorexia injury"

12/29/2010 10:17:40 PM

Quote :

"when you hire a guy who has never in his life coached a college team, you have to spot him a year or two accounting for the fact that he knows absolutely no one in the high school/aau basketball scene. he has no relationships w/ freshmen and sophomores that he can potentially bring to his new school. he knows not a single high school coach in the country."

I'm making an effort to stay out of these pissing matches, but I feel the need to interject every now and then.

I think this is a bullshit excuse. Sidney got around this issue by keeping/hiring the assistants he did. Harris stayed...which was HUGE. He's known as one of the recruiters in the country and has GREAT relationships with players and coaches everywhere. The other assistant hires had tons of college coaching and recruiting experience.

12/29/2010 10:20:21 PM

I want to live in a world where every four- and five-star recruit steps on the court and dominates his freshman year

12/29/2010 10:21:09 PM

lowe also has a link with the atlanta aau scene through shareef abdur-rahim. one that very few coaches who have been career college guys would have

12/29/2010 10:22:04 PM

Quote :

"I want to live in a world where every four- and five-star recruit steps on the court and dominates his freshman year"

Rupp Arena?

12/29/2010 10:22:27 PM

I'd like to take a poll:

Who would be in favor of firing Lowe before the season ends?

Just wondering how dumb some of you are

I'll add a 2nd question so I'm not being biased.

Who is in favor of giving Lowe a contract extension before the season ends?

12/29/2010 10:22:35 PM