^sorry I misspelled argument

8/17/2009 12:45:05 PM

Quote :

""

lmfao anybody else notice the sign in the background that says "Where's the birth certificate"?

8/17/2009 3:11:04 PM

Megan McArdle points to the following from Radley Balko on her blog:

Quote :

"Whole Foods is everything leftists talk about when they talk about "corporate responsibility." And yet lefties want to boycott the company because CEO John Mackey wrote an op-ed that suggests alternatives to single payer health care? It wasn't even a nasty or mean-spirited op-ed. Mackey didn't spread misinformation about death panels, call anyone names, or use ad hominem attacks. He put forth actual ideas and policy proposals, many of them tested and proven during his own experience running a large company. Is this really the state of debate on the left, now? "Agree with us, or we'll crush you?" These people don't want a dicussion. They don't want to hear ideas. They want you to shut up and do what they say, or they're going to punish you."

I am posting the above only to make a point: I am sure that those who are boycotting Whole Foods make up only a small, but vocal, segment of the democratic party. To assume that all liberals are just as reactionary would be disingenuous. If you are a liberal and agree with this statement, you should also agree with the absurdity of posting stories of crazy townhallers as if all opponents of government-run health care share similar views or intellectual capacity. Both examples are simply means to paint all those who disagree with you in a way that makes you feel better about ignoring what others have to say.

[Edited on August 17, 2009 at 3:34 PM. Reason : .]

8/17/2009 3:34:02 PM

i don't go to whole foods to begin with because they are pricey and there isn't one particularly close to my house right now. that said, i can appreciate the ceo saying what works for his company and weighing in on the debate. but using that same op ed to basically say that we can pretty much eat our way to healthiness (through eating the very things that his company sells) was a little over the line. either way it seems stupid to wade into a political debate as the ceo of a company whose customer base is made up of many people who would disagree with his argument.

8/17/2009 4:14:42 PM

i just got a job at whole foods.

some of the people are crazy

but the food is good

8/17/2009 7:06:02 PM

I might like a Pubic Option with that woman. I'm just sayin...

8/17/2009 7:10:46 PM

The Whole Foods thing is a bit silly, I think using money as speech by boycotting, is a way of practicing free speech in a way that isn't as intrusive as people yelling at town hall events to the point that only their side gets to interact with the elected representative of everyone present, but still the boycott seems like it is taking too far for someone who is merely a figurehead CEO who I am told is not even on their payroll any more.

That said, people do seem to be getting behind it, this group has been growing by a few thousand people a day, and it has surpassed the ability to message all its members and is now having to create a fan page instead.

Boycott Whole Foods
http://www.new.facebook.com/group.php?gid=119099537379
11,939 members

I find it interesting that Republican Richard Burr recently said "Health care reform has to happen, the worst product that could come out of this debate is if we got nothing" and "It's ok if you want to have a government option but you've got to leave the private sector private." I would not have expected those words out of his mouth.

It is also interesting that I haven't seen much hating on Burr lately. I just saw a news segment where they said Richard Burr hasn't held a town hall to discuss the health care reform debate, and there are no threads calling him out on it, whereas there is a thread calling out Congressman Price for not having one even though he was reaching out to constituents in other ways & ended up attending one.

8/17/2009 7:26:04 PM

It's all fun and games until someone gets shot . . .

Quote :

" Man with assault rifle at Obama rally sparks concerns An unidentified man carrying an assault rifle outside the Phoenix Convention Center where President Barack Obama was giving a speech today has renewed safety concerns about protesters bringing firearms to presidential events. "It is extremely disturbing that you have that kind of weapon in close proximity to where the president is," said Ruben Gallego, a retired military veteran and Arizona Democratic Party official who observed the man. "He was demonstrating his Second Amendment rights," Gallego added, "but he was clearly there to intimidate people who were there exercising their First Amendment rights." Neatly dressed in a white shirt, black tie and gray slacks, the man, who only gave his first name as Chris, also had a pistol holstered at his side as he engaged in heated debates with those holding a rally in support of Obama's heath-care reform plan. Phoenix police said they were monitoring about a dozen protesters carrying guns, though there were no incidents or arrests. Arizona is an "open-carry" state, which means anyone legally allowed to have a firearm can carry it in public as long as it's visible. A permit is required if the weapon is carried concealed. "Because I can do it," Chris said when asked why he brought guns to the rally at 3rd and Washington streets outside the Phoenix Convention Center. "In Arizona, I still have some freedoms left." Gallego, who served a tour of duty in Iraq, said he believes the AR-15 semi-automatic assault rifle was loaded. He spotted a magazine clip in the firearm and another in the man's back pocket. Obama was inside the downtown convention center, addressing a national gathering of the Veterans of Foreign War. The president's motorcade entered and exited the facility about a block away from where protesters and supporters were staged. "We're here to keep the peace. If we need to intervene, we will interene at that time," said police Detective J. Oliver, one of three officers shadowing the man with the rifle. Last week, during Obama's health care town hall in Portsmouth, N.H., a man carrying a sign reading "It is time to water the tree of liberty" stood outside with a pistol strapped to his leg. "It's a political statement," he told The Boston Globe. "If you don't use your rights, then you lose your rights." Police asked the man to move away from school property, but he was not arrested. The Associated Press contributed to this story."

[Edited on August 17, 2009 at 7:31 PM. Reason : ..]

8/17/2009 7:30:46 PM

it seems everyone in that facebook group is in college and reactionary to stupid shit.

also that guy with the gun is hilarious.

8/17/2009 7:37:38 PM

And it's completely within his rights to carry it. Good for him.

PS: I like the Glock.

[Edited on August 17, 2009 at 9:32 PM. Reason : ]

8/17/2009 9:28:21 PM

was he on school property?

8/17/2009 10:10:46 PM

Quote :

""Because I can do it," Chris said when asked why he brought guns to the rally at 3rd and Washington streets outside the Phoenix Convention Center. "In Arizona, I still have some freedoms left." "

^Sounds like no. The school property thing was another guy last week who OC'ed in New Hampshire.


Also... it's not an assault rifle.

[Edited on August 17, 2009 at 10:25 PM. Reason : ]

8/17/2009 10:14:32 PM

hahaha wow that is the first picture i have seen of any of the guys that brought the guns and now i know why they aren't worried about him shooting anyone, i would be more worried about him bugging me about the word of christ.

8/18/2009 2:50:55 AM

well he seems to be able to afford nice rayban glasses.

8/18/2009 8:19:19 AM

I'm just glad he was black because if he was white, we'd be hearing about the rise of white supremist militias and how racist the United States is becoming and how it's all Glenn Beck's fault.

Oh, people are saying that anyways? Well then, I guess I'm glad we're not hearing more of that then.

8/18/2009 8:57:31 AM

^ yep

8/18/2009 9:07:53 AM

Well I'm certainly glad the administration is walking away from insisting upon a public option. Let's see if it plays out.

What do you all think, though? If Obama signs a health care bill w/out a public option will his progressive base abandon him? Will he risk being a one-term president?

[Edited on August 18, 2009 at 9:23 AM. Reason : ``]

8/18/2009 9:17:26 AM

that...is awesome.

8/18/2009 9:20:53 AM

Quote :

"I'm just glad he was black because if he was white, we'd be hearing about the rise of white supremist militias and how racist the United States is becoming and how it's all Glenn Beck's fault. Oh, people are saying that anyways? Well then, I guess I'm glad we're not hearing more of that then."

Would you prefer that we didn't hear about it? You know, since it's true?

http://www.splcenter.org/news/item.jsp?aid=392&loc=interstitialskip

[Edited on August 18, 2009 at 9:30 AM. Reason : .]

8/18/2009 9:29:31 AM

^^^show me where they've actually changed their rhetoric? seems to be a lot of hot air and (at best) a trial balloon thrown out. obama has said throughout that there weren't any lines in the sand on this legislation.

[Edited on August 18, 2009 at 9:30 AM. Reason : .]

8/18/2009 9:30:41 AM

^

Quote :

"Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius also told CNN's "State of the Union" Sunday that a public option is "not the essential element" in reform legislation. "

- August 16, 2009
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/16/public-option-wasted-effort-lead-democratic-negotiator-says/

That evening, after the weekend press erupted w/speculation and progressives acted miffed, an unidentified admin official "elaborated" the statement w/Marc Ambinder of the Atlantic.

Quote :

"An administration official said tonight that Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius "misspoke"...Sebelius simply meant to echo the president, who has acknowledged that the public option is a tough sell in the Senate and is, at the same time, a must-pass for House Democrats, and is not, in the president's view, the most important element of the reform package."

http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/08/administration_official_sebelius_misspoke.php

Even this "elaboraton" throws the ball in Congress' court saying a public option is a must-pass for House Dems, but that its not the most important element of the reform package for the President. I think its pretty clear the Obama admin is saying that if House Dems would agree he would be willing to consider a proposal without a public option.

That's a big change from JUST LAST MONTH

Quote :

"That’s why any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange: a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans – including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest – and choose what’s best for your family."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Weekly-Address-President-Obama-Says-Health-Care-Reform-Cannot-Wait/

And let me make it clear, its a change I **like** to hear!!! This less progressive Obama is a welcome sight considering the stuff he was saying on the campaign trail.

[Edited on August 18, 2009 at 9:53 AM. Reason : ``]

8/18/2009 9:48:49 AM

as opposed to when you liked edwards for his far more progressive views on health care.

and like i said, likely a trial balloon. and i think it might be an interesting move. get the dems' views in the news as opposed to opposition from the right.

[Edited on August 18, 2009 at 10:28 AM. Reason : .]

8/18/2009 10:28:00 AM

^

Quote :

"When the facts change, I change my mind – what do you do, sir?"

- John Maynard Keynes

I changed my mind on the Edwards proposal because more and more evidence suggests that adverse selection is not a major problem in the U.S., which is the primary market failure argument for intervening in the health insurance market.

I am still concerned with the distributional issue of some people not being able to afford health insurance, but as I said over and over again during the campaign, we could address this concern with the ideas McCain laid out in 2008:
1) lower premiums by allowing people to purchase insurance across state lines, which would introduce more competition into the marketplace

2) potentially further lower premiums by encouraging the wealthy to pay for more of their own health care out-of-pocket through HSAs

3) and if some people still can't afford health insurance after all that, provide them with tax credit (or maybe "health vouchers" or some sort of income subsidy) to help make up the difference.

This way everyone should be able to afford health coverage. And if we want to make sure no one chooses not to purchase health insurance (i guess if you still were not convinced that adverse selection was not a problem), we could just do like Edwards suggested and tell everyone they have to get health insurance or else. Bada-boom. Universal coverage without a public option.

[Edited on August 18, 2009 at 11:09 AM. Reason : ``]

8/18/2009 10:50:55 AM

those facts seemed to coincide pretty closely to when edwards didn't look like he had a shot anymore.

8/18/2009 11:09:27 AM

^ I'm not sure what you're suggesting. If I only cared about voting for someone that would win, why did I vote for John McCain even after it was pretty apparent he was going to lose (and it isn't like Edwards chances were ever that great anyways)?

But hey, lets make this about about me and not the issues. You're clearly in over your head on this one, so questioning my political philosophy is an easy out.

[Edited on August 18, 2009 at 11:15 AM. Reason : ``]

8/18/2009 11:13:38 AM

i wasn't saying that you were for backing the winner. you just seemed to pick anyone's ideas who weren't obama's. and those ideas changed pretty drastically. the common thread seemed to be whatever obama's most formidable rival was pushing. i'm in over my head? who's making things personal now? i just don't feel like you argue in good faith in things involving obama's policies.

8/18/2009 11:16:57 AM

So it must be my irrational hatred of Obama.

Which is now so intense that in various threads I said he is doing a reasonably good job as President, that he handled NK better than McCain would have, and that I approve of his potential shift in health care policy (we'll see if he means it or if its just political posturing).

Man I hate that guy so much!!! Sometimes, I ask myself why. Why do I hate this Obama fellow so damn much???!!!! Its just crazyness but I can't help myself.

[Edited on August 18, 2009 at 11:25 AM. Reason : ``]

8/18/2009 11:20:48 AM

everyone is irrational. and i didn't say you hated obama.

8/18/2009 11:46:04 AM

I think this whole outrage of Billy Bob taxpayer on the potential "suppressive taxes" of the health care bill laughable. I must admit the insurance industry and conservative leadership did a good job in people manipulation and public persuasion to rally folks who will see no change in taxes, even benefiting from this bill, to be the foot soldiers.

Healthcare reform is needed. The problem is the issue has been made a black and white; partisan war. Where liberals are taking the idea to the extreme and republicans has resorting to silly overly exaggerated public displays.

I saw a sign on the way home from work "Taxpayer March on DC (insert date)" and laughed. I have a feeling anyone who will be detrimentally effected by this bill will have better things to do then to take off work to participate in a protest rally.

Where were these upset people during all of Bush's excess spending? I am sure these protesters (see woman holding sign above) are the same people who think Saddam participated in 9/11, Iraq had WMD's, and the patriot acts are a great amendment to help protect us from the turrists.

[Edited on August 18, 2009 at 12:13 PM. Reason : ll]

[Edited on August 18, 2009 at 12:15 PM. Reason : l]

8/18/2009 12:11:05 PM

Quote :

"and i didn't say you hated obama."

No, you just said that I was willing to say anything or support anyone to keep Obama out the White House. Why? Well, you didn't say. I guess your mind reading abilities are still developing.

[Edited on August 18, 2009 at 2:21 PM. Reason : ``]

8/18/2009 2:21:18 PM

Quote :

"What do you all think, though? If Obama signs a health care bill w/out a public option will his progressive base abandon him? Will he risk being a one-term president?"

They'll be pissed, but they won't have many other choices. They're not going to vote Republican, and if they threaten to go Green or some other far left party, then the Democrats simply need to raise the specter of 2000 all over again to keep the troops in line.

8/18/2009 2:31:16 PM

Quote :

"I'm just glad he was black because if he was white, we'd be hearing about the rise of white supremist militias and how racist the United States is becoming and how it's all Glenn Beck's fault."

Oh no not people saying things! Being white sure is hard.

8/18/2009 4:32:32 PM

8/18/2009 4:52:24 PM

Man I sure would hate it if people said things. Holy shit, that's oppression right there. When people say things that annoy me or that I don't like. I'm a pissed white man who doesn't like people saying things that conflict with my fragile, childish world view.

8/18/2009 7:08:46 PM

haha Who writes your material? Its so fantastic and fresh.

[Edited on August 18, 2009 at 8:09 PM. Reason : ``]

8/18/2009 8:01:16 PM

8/18/2009 8:50:19 PM

and your point would be... holy shit, there are crazies on every side of an argument. wow!

8/18/2009 8:51:51 PM

via CC @ the Atlantic

Quote :

"A Scripps-Howard poll of 1,010 adults last month found that 36% of Americans consider it "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that government officials either allowed the attacks to be carried out or carried out the attacks themselves. "

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531304,00.html

8/18/2009 9:39:36 PM

8/18/2009 11:32:40 PM

^awsome, i think thats about the best way to respond to these idiots

8/19/2009 12:01:10 AM

that is awesome. I'm glad someone in power has the guts to call a spade a spade.

8/19/2009 12:07:50 AM

that chick looks more like a liberal crazy than a conservative one

8/19/2009 12:16:13 AM

Ahahaha that Frank link is awesome

8/19/2009 12:39:25 AM

Quote :

"I'm just glad he was black because if he was white, we'd be hearing about the rise of white supremist militias and how racist the United States is becoming and how it's all Glenn Beck's fault."

Heh.

Quote :

"While "Chris" was the guy who carried around the assault rifle at the Obama event in Phoenix yesterday, it appears to have been another guy, Ernest Hancock, who organized the whole thing. And Hancock, who was also on the scene with a holstered handgun, turns out to have had very close ties to a 90s-era Arizona militia group called the 'Viper Militia' most of whose members were eventually sent to federal prison on various weapons and explosives charges tied to plans to bomb federal buildings."

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/ernest_hancock_viper_militia_gun_obama_event.php

8/19/2009 9:26:25 AM

WHITE PEOPLE!!!
nah-nah-nah-nah-nah-naaahhhhh

BLACK PEOPLE!!!
a-doop-doop-doop-dooooo

8/19/2009 9:42:23 AM

In response to Socks`` & sarijoul:

Have you yet to figure out that Obama is a politician? Do not listen to what he says but watch what he does.

As referenced in the "Obama Flip Flops" thread, he will say what he believes is the right thing to say at the moment, with the possibility of contradicting himself if the need arises.

He wants public health care. He said "it is not the most important aspect of the bill" to push the bill home. If he can lay the groundwork for an easy transition to public/socialized care, he will do so in a heartbeat. He is losing the "heat of the moment" and is trying to get congress and the senate to move swiftly.

8/19/2009 10:04:59 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVS4Zgjm8HE&feature=email

This is the level of political discourse in America

8/19/2009 10:06:48 AM

Quote :

""While "Chris" was the guy who carried around the assault rifle at the Obama event in Phoenix yesterday, it appears to have been another guy, Ernest Hancock, who organized the whole thing. And Hancock, who was also on the scene with a holstered handgun, turns out to have had very close ties to a 90s-era Arizona militia group called the 'Viper Militia' most of whose members were eventually sent to federal prison on various weapons and explosives charges tied to plans to bomb federal buildings.""

Was this the guy holding the "time to water the tree of liberty" sign? fucking whackjobs.

8/19/2009 10:22:21 AM

You know, it sure seems that a lot of folks are fired up at one after another of those town hall meetings. If conservatives were actually as organized as some of you leftists are claiming with the "astroturf" howls and so on, we should've won '08 in a landslide.

8/19/2009 12:12:36 PM

^ perhaps the groups weren't as organized then...? Because, you know, things don't actually change over time.

And are you suggesting that there isn't a big astroturfing campaign being organized by established conservative forces?

8/19/2009 12:19:59 PM