That's about what everyone has been asking for those damn things

9/16/2013 11:38:51 AM

scored 8 lbs of Accurate 2520 today

9/16/2013 9:42:18 PM

I wonder if ammo availability and prices will get worse again?

9/16/2013 10:22:15 PM

Hopefully all those clowns are having trouble paying the cc bill as is from the last time. I was getting excited about seeing BCM BCGs in stock without even trying.

9/16/2013 11:24:19 PM

^^ I hope not, but if so, I've already got 2,500 rounds of 7.62x54r

[Edited on September 17, 2013 at 12:26 AM. Reason : ,]

9/17/2013 12:26:22 AM

Does anyone have a good utility they use to figure out what range their rifle is actually zeroed at?

Feel free to correct my terminology as well (zeroed, for example).

I was shooting at a buddies range the other day with my 30-06 at about 150 yards and it was shooting about 1 mil-dot high.

I was at 14x magnification so the mils were true. This was the ammo being used:

http://www.hornady.com/store/30-06-Springfield-150-gr-InterLock-SP-AW/

This is typically the longest range I ever get to shoot at, it just seems like a waste to zero such a rifle at that short a distance. You want it to shoot high at short ranges so it shoots center at long correct?

I just want to be able to quickly calculate what range it would shoot center at if Im up 1 or 2 mils. Hope Im being clear. Feel free to point out my noobness.

9/17/2013 11:23:39 AM

Depends on the caliber for sight alignment offset.
On an AR, a 100 yard zero impact is about 2" lower than aim at 25 yards.
Think ballistic trajectory. Inside the zero, impact is low. Beyond zero, impact is high, until you reach where the bullets highest flight.

9/17/2013 11:52:07 AM

Damned tactical shits double zeroing

Bullets don't go you unless you point them up.

If you zero your rifle correctly (as to use a mil dot system not just to spray and pray) your zero should be at the peak of the bullets trajectory.



If so a simple ballistics table for your round will tell you where you are.

What I would do is re zero the gun. But that's me...

9/17/2013 1:28:55 PM

Depends on velocity. Until you chrono it, you're just guessing.

9/17/2013 1:30:37 PM

Read about maximum point blank range (MPBR)

9/17/2013 1:32:49 PM

I understand the concept. I'm really just kidding.

I have all of my guns 0ed how I like them.... Where I can precisely calculate the drop.

But I understand if you don't care about a few inches you can make your effective (thoughtless) range further by the double zero. Knowing you'll shoot on up close high mid range and back to low long range giving you a 200 yrd range of +- 3" rather than -3 to zero back to -3 finishing at -6

[Edited on September 17, 2013 at 1:43 PM. Reason : .]

9/17/2013 1:41:30 PM

Quote :

"your zero should be at the peak of the bullets trajectory"

that's not necessarily true. i mean, you may want to zero that way, but i don't. all that does is guarantee that i'm going to shoot low at every range except where i zeroed. you now have to hold high all the time. of course, if you're one of those who likes playing sniper army man, then you're just going to turn your knobs all the time. MPBR is far and away the best method for zeroing a hunting rifle.

9/17/2013 2:11:58 PM

Pretty cool Noveske manufacturing video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLqPyAr9flw

9/17/2013 11:20:22 PM

^^ makes sense

I just don't hunt so I don't set mine up that way. I just like to get my holes as close to the center and as consistent as possible. :-)

9/18/2013 4:16:15 PM

That's what she said.

[Edited on September 18, 2013 at 5:21 PM. Reason : -]

9/18/2013 5:21:22 PM

hell yeah, just placed an order for 8 lbs of IMR 4895, 8 lbs of IMR 4064, and 2k Tula SR primers. glad some powder is finally starting to come back in stock.

9/18/2013 8:02:37 PM

the 8 lbers of 4895 have already sold out. i got to it just in time

9/18/2013 10:10:28 PM

why tula primers

9/18/2013 11:09:24 PM

Put some optics on my guns tonight.

Midwest Industries AK rear sight replacement for RMR
12 MOA orange triangle dual illuminated
Saiga .223

Daniel defense aimpoint micro mount
Primary Arms micro dot
DDLES 9mm AR





[Edited on September 19, 2013 at 12:43 AM. Reason : .]

9/19/2013 12:42:46 AM

Quote :

"why tula primers"

good primers at a good price. a lot of highpower shooters are using them now.

also, i was already paying a $27.50 hazmat charge, so i might as well throw in some primers as well. even with the hazmat charge, i paid less than i would've if i bought local, and that's assuming i even could've found those items. pretty much every retailer gets their powder from powder valley and then just jacks up the price to cover the hazmat shipping plus a very small profit.

[Edited on September 19, 2013 at 7:21 AM. Reason : ad]

9/19/2013 7:20:18 AM

Do they contain anything naughty that domestic primers dont?

(like mercury)

9/19/2013 12:47:55 PM

no

9/19/2013 1:38:57 PM

Anyone ever had any luck sending in faulty scopes/optics and getting them replaced?

POS Simmons doesnt change any of the settings anymore...wondering if its worth the freight fee.

9/23/2013 8:44:39 PM

not worth it with simmons. buy a decent scope with a good warranty. buy once, cry once.

9/23/2013 8:45:30 PM

Why do I want this so bad?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=366471672

9/23/2013 11:44:54 PM

^^luckily it came on a gun i bought elsewhere so I will swapping it out soon.

Im gonna send it to simmons and hope they replace it...if they try and charge me im just gonna tell them to keep the POS.

I can put it on a 22 or some junk gun if they do replace it.

9/24/2013 12:40:34 AM

Anyone used a rail mounted QD socket similar to the ones below or have any suggestions?

Fortis RAP Rail Attachment Point QD


Magpul RSA QD Rail Sling Attachment

9/24/2013 9:46:13 AM

Haven't used the QD but I have a magpul sling attachment on my rail (loop kind) and it would lead me to believe their QD one is of high quality as well.

9/24/2013 10:24:03 AM

I have a gear force, but those are both much more low profile.

9/24/2013 10:59:26 AM

The only issue I can think of, is the odd angle the magpul QD socket. I have used ones similar to the fortis rap, but not with the angle of the magpul.

Might just have to bite the bullet and try one.

9/24/2013 12:07:11 PM

TWW friends.

I am thinking about getting a shotgun for home defense. I am thinking I don't need the Ferrari of shotguns, but I like nice things. What is a good shotgun for home defense, something my wife could be comfortable with (she likes guns, but isn't thrilled about larger ones) and something that will work every time and is not a piece of crap?

I love high end models of everything, I always like getting the best, but in this scenario a solid model is all I need. I know hand guns and rifles better than shotguns, so I am kinda lost on which direction to go.I also don't want to pay too much for something I don't need.

Looking for:
-Something priced fairly
-Something that works every time
-Can be handled by my wife, no overkill on power/gauge
-Pump action (always heard the story if a home intruder hears the pump action and doesn't flee, he is there to hurt you)

9/24/2013 8:36:29 PM

Mossberg 500 in 20 gauge with a full stock and 18.5" barrel

if your wife has a small frame, you could get a youth model with shorter LOP and either swap the barrel or cut the barrel off yourself.

[Edited on September 24, 2013 at 8:43 PM. Reason : dafs]

9/24/2013 8:41:57 PM

If you want a pump action, then fine, but don't get a pump action for the sake of making scary sounds. Fuck. That.

You lose the option to shoot without betraying your position with all that noise. You also lose one round in a weapon that typically doesn't hold all that many. On top of all that, you broadcast to everyone within earshot that you are armed, so now if the intruder(s) don't immediately flee, they know they need to shoot when they see you. I don't want to ever shoot anyone in my house, but if faced with that scenario, I would want to hide somewhere in the house where an intruder would be forced to open a door to get to me (preferably to force open a locked door).

...and regardless, if someone breaks into my house, I'm not overly concerned with whether they are willing (or possibly even desiring) to harm me. I'm presuming that much; they forfeited the benefit of the doubt when they broke into my house. The first noise I make is going to be a gunshot.


-If you want a shotgun, a "tactical" 12 or 20 gauge is good simply because it holds more shots. Don't get one with some stupidass pistol grip. If you decide you aren't dead-set on a pump now, I had a Saiga 12 that would have been pretty bad ass for your purposes. I think they also make a 20 gauge.

-Don't rule out an AR. I think an AR is a great home defense weapon. I'm hesitant as to whether I even want another tactical-type shotgun. I think that even if I had both, I'd probably reach for the AR if I ever had to grab something from the safe for that purpose.

[Edited on September 24, 2013 at 9:04 PM. Reason : ]

9/24/2013 8:59:32 PM

the shotgun i keep out of the safe has a full mag and one in the chamber

9/24/2013 9:01:38 PM

Good points, pump action isn't a deal breaker or deal maker. I was in the market for an ar, I had one for a while but my sister wanted it (her husband likes guns... A lot) but I honestly feel a shotgun is better for us.

I can drop a dude with an ar, but I my wife isn't trained in reflex shooting, so a shotgun may be better for both of us.

Saiga 12 = Ferrari?! I think it's a cool weapon, but I don't think I can honestly spend that much on something not used that often (unless it's cheaper than I think).

Online research is a bitch becuase everything is "the best one available."

9/24/2013 9:15:28 PM

AR15 +1

I recently sold my Rem 870 shotgun in favor of an AR for home defense. The thing was just unwieldy, only held 4 in the mag (I did not want to keep it chambered), and my 5'3" wife looked/felt ridiculous using it. She basically had to extend her arm all the way out, elbow-locked. It didn't help my peace of mind that I had gotten shells stuck while loading them in the mag tube on two occasions.

now it's one charge, 28 rounds

oh and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKk45i9DzDA

9/24/2013 9:20:40 PM

exactly how big do you think a buckshot pattern is at home defense ranges? hint: you better aim it just like it's a rifle.

.223 varmint bullets are actually better for home defense if you're worried about penetrating walls at all. it takes a lot to stop buckshot.

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/index.html

9/24/2013 9:21:36 PM

Over penatration isn't a big deal as we are moving out of th apartment for a house next month, and we don't have kids in the next room.

AR seems to be an option back on the table. But I will go all out for an ar... We are going shooting with friends next weekend, shot guns, hand guns and all, maybe there will be a shot gun we like or maybe shotguns will get ruled out.

9/24/2013 9:35:07 PM

An open choke shotgun is going to throw a pattern on the order of 1" per every 1-2 yards of distance. I'd guess that most home-defense shots would be no more than about 10 yards, so you'd be talking about a pattern on the order of 5-10" across at that distance (and only 3-5" at 5 yards, or 15 feet away).

The point is that you still have to aim. If you're far enough away that the pattern of a shotgun is wide enough to be useful, you're far enough away that you have at least a moment to aim (with a red-dot sight, it doesn't take long). If you're close enough that all you have time to do is point and shoot, the pattern of a shotgun isn't going to be as meaningfully wide, and you're probably close enough that you are going to hit with a rifle even if you just point and squeeze.

Other considerations are that a .223/5.56 round will actually have fewer overpenetration issues through walls than buckshot will, and with a light 2-stage trigger and a 30-round magazine coupled with very light recoil, you can get several shots off quickly with an AR as compared to a shotgun. You also have the ability to make a no-shit precise shot if some weird situation presented itself where that was called for.


I was on "Team Shotgun" up until relatively recently. I mean, it's just common sense, right? ...and no doubt, if you connect a good shot at close range with 0 or 00 buck, it's pretty devastating stuff. I've seen its effects on deer, and it's not to be trifled with. After actually looking at some numbers, some terminal ballistics (in gel and with penetration issues through drywall/wood/brick/etc), and giving it some thought, I think that an AR is actually often a better choice.

If I lived alone, out in BFE, with no concerns for overpenetration, then maybe that would even the calculus somewhat. Maybe with the right shotgun, I'd even prefer it. With most shotguns and most ARs in most scenarios, though, I think I'd reach for the AR, though.

9/24/2013 9:38:02 PM

^^ What about neighbors?

[Edited on September 24, 2013 at 9:45 PM. Reason : if i lived in an apartment, i'd probably keep a pistol with frangible ammo.]

9/24/2013 9:38:32 PM

I switched to an AR in 300 blackout for my home defense gun. As soon as my SBR stamps come in, that will become the home defense preference. My thinking is that an easier to maneuver gun means a better chance of putting the bullets on the target, and the intruder makes a better bullet stop than drywall.

If a projectile won't penetrate several layers of drywall, it probably won't penetrate clothing and skin well enough to hit vital organs either.

9/24/2013 9:42:37 PM

I have a Mossberg 590 pump. It lives in the safe and rarely gets used.
I have 4 ARs.

At any distances, an AR is going to be equally or more accurate than a shotgun.
You get faster follow up, less recoil, and better wound characteristics from a rifle.
With a shotgun and buckshot, you have 9 bullets(bbs) to account for, and 4x or more recoil.

Shotguns have their place, but as an all purpose HD weapon, an AR is better.

If you are dead set on a shotgun:
Pump:
Remington 870
Mossberg 500
Semi:
Remington 11-87 or 1100
Mossberg 930

Or spend a lot and just get a Benelli


+ Everything Duke said.

[Edited on September 24, 2013 at 9:46 PM. Reason : .]

9/24/2013 9:44:17 PM

Quote :

"If a projectile won't penetrate several layers of drywall, it probably won't penetrate clothing and skin well enough to hit vital organs either."

do you have any test results to back that up? Vmax and softpoints do pretty good in gel tests. home defense is always a balancing act.

9/24/2013 10:03:15 PM

Quote :

"Can be handled by my wife, no overkill on power/gauge "

An AR-15 would be way easier to handle than any shotgun, especially if you go for a lightweight setup. Some women find your typical pump to be a bit heavy.

9/24/2013 10:15:06 PM

every writeup and youtube video I've seen on Vmax and softpoints indicate that they'll penetrate at least 4 layers of sheetrock. They're keyholing by the time they go through the third sheet, but they're still penetrating nonetheless. It's hard to tell how many more layers they'd travel through because the bullets are flying wildly off course from their initial aimpoint.

9/24/2013 10:20:07 PM

oh good lord

my wife is weak as shit. no upper body strength whatsoever. she can throw up her youth/women's 20 ga semi with a long barrel and hit clays as fast as i can throw them. no woman should have a problem shouldering a 18.5" pump gun and putting shots on target.

9/24/2013 10:20:09 PM

^^how does .300 blackout do in drywall penetration tests?

9/24/2013 10:21:40 PM

is there any concern that a person not familiar with a pump shotgun would forget to pump the shotgun after shooting it? I grew up shooting pumps and can shoot a pump about as fast as my semi-auto, but I've been on sporting clay courses with people who have to make a slow conscious effort to pump the gun. I'd hate to imagine how bad they'd be at operating their gun jacked up on adrenaline.

^probably shitty. 7.62x39 goes through multiple layers keyholing, and I think the rounds are similar in ballistics. I also consider anyone coming into my house intending to arm me is coming armed, and I don't want to be outgunned.

[Edited on September 24, 2013 at 10:27 PM. Reason : ^.]

9/24/2013 10:24:39 PM

you should practice with whatever you choose

it's certainly a matter of opinion, but i think the vast majority of folks wouldn't feel outgunned with 20 or 30 rounds of .223 in a carbine.

[Edited on September 24, 2013 at 10:29 PM. Reason : dfas]

9/24/2013 10:27:45 PM

I don't really see the point in .300 BLK unless you're planning to shoot it subsonic and suppressed.

[Edited on September 24, 2013 at 10:33 PM. Reason : and then i'd have to look into .44 Magnum, like a Ruger M44 or 77/44]

9/24/2013 10:28:50 PM