That's fine, not really my point in bringing it up though.

Here's the thing...it's misguided to blame election outcomes on specific voting blocs, even Trump voters. It's a complex, systemic issue, and criticism should be directed at the leaders of the system.

For the record, I agree that Greens are kind of a joke (partly due to disinformation campaigns, partly self-inflicted). I wish I had a better option at the time. That's why I'm glad to see this group gaining momentum:

https://www.forapeoplesparty.org/

[Edited on March 8, 2018 at 1:45 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2018 1:42:14 PM

seems like the democratic socialists have a bit of a head start on them

3/8/2018 1:55:49 PM

They do, but they're an organizing group, not a party. They give support to issues and a bunch of different splinter leftist parties. The goal of MPP is to unite the left into a larger party that is capable of winning high profile elections.

[Edited on March 8, 2018 at 2:01 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2018 1:59:18 PM

so for a people's standard https://xkcd.com/927/

3/8/2018 2:01:41 PM

That's one of the main concerns other groups on the left have. I think there's a way around it though. A few steps that need to happen:

1. Develop a strong, leftist platform (done)
2. Demonstrate growth beyond other parties on the left (seems likely at the rate it's going)
3. Sign a pact to push legislation enabling access for all third parties and independents. (already in the platform, but should be further emphasized)
4. Agree to only fill gaps where there are no viable leftist candidates, and bolster Greens, Socialists, etc where they already hold office, or have a significant presence. I'd argue for supporting true leftist Dems as well.

And I plan to bring this up on Friday with Nick Brana personally.

Here's some explanation from the Colorado branch on why a new party is a good idea:

https://m.facebook.com/notes/colorado-peoples-party/the-case-for-a-colorado-peoples-party/1860707120810998/

[Edited on March 8, 2018 at 2:34 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2018 2:30:21 PM

Quote :

"But either way a protest vote is still a democratic choice."

It's a choice, but a very poor one if it helps someone like Trump get elected. You do realize he's working hard to erode a lot of very democratic ideals, right?

Casting a vote for a dictator/autocrat doesn't really work if you value a democratic society.

3/8/2018 2:45:24 PM

Using the bully pulpit doesn't make him an autocrat. We still have checks and balances. Any un-Democratic powers he does have were granted to him before he took office, and some were renewed this year, by Democrats:

https://theintercept.com/2018/01/12/the-same-democrats-who-denounce-trump-as-a-lawless-treasonous-authoritarian-just-voted-to-give-him-vast-warrantless-spying-powers/

Speaking of democratic elections though...what other president has asked for paper ballots in recent history?

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/06/trump-elections-ballots-paper-440361

[Edited on March 8, 2018 at 2:58 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2018 2:57:37 PM

WHATABOUTTHEDEMS

3/8/2018 3:05:01 PM

Yes, Democrats gave Trump the un-Democratic powers he has. So the unprecedented dictator argument doesn’t hold up.

[Edited on March 8, 2018 at 3:11 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2018 3:10:21 PM

Are you specifically referring to FISA (which some Ds, but hardly all, did recently vote to reauthorize) or to the generally expanding executive over the past three decades which certainly both Democrats and Republicans contributed to depending on what party was in the WH.

3/8/2018 3:25:35 PM

neither of those things would undermine UJustWait84's point, adultswim constantly deflects with whataboutism

3/8/2018 3:29:23 PM

Both yes, and I don’t mean it’s entirely the fault of the Democrats. Just saying he’s a continuation, not anything new (apart from being the dumbest president anyone alive has seen).

3/8/2018 3:30:22 PM

nothing says democracy like telling people tgey have to vote for their candidate

3/8/2018 3:32:28 PM

^^^
https://youtu.be/R6VCzhWy-Kk

as a radical socialist, you should learn how that word hurts the left

3/8/2018 3:34:34 PM

3/8/2018 3:37:38 PM

It’s true and you should consider the parallels to “moral equivalence” from the Reagan era.

https://jacobinmag.com/2018/03/jeremy-corbyn-foreign-policy-soviet-union

3/8/2018 3:43:35 PM

you keep using it the way he says he's not talking about, you use it in dumb ways by mentioning a tangential issue to deflect criticism of trump

3/8/2018 4:04:42 PM

the fact that he's defensive and deflecting helps prove my point

[Edited on March 8, 2018 at 4:12 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2018 4:11:29 PM

No, you just see the "fallacy" and don't bother to understand what I'm talking about.

He's obviously worthy of criticism, just like Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. Whitewashing the past to paint him as an unprecedented tyrant is factually wrong and bad for progress. If you turds stopped doing this I wouldn't need to deflect.

[Edited on March 8, 2018 at 4:14 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2018 4:12:46 PM

Yeah yeah. We get it. We ALL share the blame in creating a monster like Trump. Well, except those of us who either happily voted for HRC, or held our noses because it was the right thing to do.

3/8/2018 4:16:48 PM

Quote :

"Just saying he’s a continuation, not anything new (apart from being the dumbest president anyone alive has seen)."

it’d be great if he was only the dumbest president ever and nothing else

3/8/2018 4:18:38 PM

^^
Nah you're still missing the point. I could blame Hillary voters for Trump's win, and back it up with polling data, but I would be wrong because the blame lies in the corrupt system and its leaders, not the voters.

You can criticize me, personally, for my decision to vote third party (which is still counterproductive imo), but you're missing the mark by blaming voter blocs.

You might be angry at a family member for becoming addicted to opioids, but do you blame opioid addicts in general? Or is it a systemic problem of overprescription & lack of opportunity?

Do you blame minorities for going to prison, or do you blame systemic oppression?

[Edited on March 8, 2018 at 4:27 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2018 4:25:21 PM

Quote :

"No, you just see the "fallacy" and don't bother to understand what I'm talking about."

no, you really don't get it

he said- yeah it's a bad choice because it helps trump, you realize trump is bad
you replied: he's not that bad, look at these unrelated things the democrats did!

that's the kind of dumb whataboutism that the guy says he isn't talking about at the start of the video you posted

3/8/2018 4:26:08 PM

Quote :

"look at these unrelated things the democrats did!"

It's not unrelated, it illustrates that Democrats (the Clinton type especially) are the ones that enabled this level of power in the executive branch by voting along with Republicans.

So if your argument is that Trump is an anti-democracy dictator, you shouldn't have voted for either of them.

[Edited on March 8, 2018 at 4:33 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2018 4:33:16 PM

^^

Dude, my point flew right over your head, but I'll break it down for you:

Bernie bros who either sat out the election (bad) or voted third party in protest (worse), or voted for Trump just to spite Hillary (worst) all helped Trump win. Those actions, while ranging in severity, activity contributed to our current state of affairs. All of those choices were poor and did more to hurt than help.

The fact that some of these people were smug about Hillary losing was pretty dumb, but now they're worried that people will think they're "responsible" for Trump because of a bunch of noise about Russian bots is pretty comical to me.

They were stupid to do what they did, but if they were duped by Russian bots (dubious, but possible) into doing it? How embarrassing!

3/8/2018 4:34:30 PM

They're worried about being painted that way because it gives centrists fuel to say "Russia wants you to vote for [progressive candidate]", not because it's embarrassing.

3/8/2018 4:38:08 PM

Still not getting it.

3/8/2018 4:39:10 PM

Oh, you're saying they should be embarrassed for not voting Clinton.

3/8/2018 4:41:31 PM

Not voting for Clinton isn't really all that embarrassing, but voting for Jill Stein definitely is.

Even more embarrassing would be not thinking critically or using common sense to guide your decision, but it would SUPER embarrassing if a Russian bot tricked you into voting that way- especially if you were all high and mighty after the election insisting none of it was your fault.

[Edited on March 8, 2018 at 4:49 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2018 4:49:03 PM

Quote :

"I don’t disagree. But I don’t generally think it’s a good idea to let idiots with ZERO experience lead the country. I’m not a Green Party hater by default by any stretch but they are kind of a joke in this country to me and Stein in particular is just an opportunist."

President is meant to be a civilian not a lifetime political elite

Quote :

"In 1973, Stein graduated magna cum laude from Harvard College, where she studied psychology, sociology, and anthropology.[3] She then attended Harvard Medical School and graduated in 1979.[3] After graduating from Harvard Medical School, Stein practiced internal medicine for 25 years[4] at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Simmons College Health Center, and Harvard Pilgrim Health Care, which are all located in the Boston area. She also served as an instructor of medicine at Harvard Medical School."

Quote :

" Stein at a protest against coal-powered energy production As a medical doctor, Stein became increasingly concerned about the connection between people's health and the quality of their local environment, and decided to turn to activism in 1998, when she began protesting the "Filthy Five" coal plants in Massachusetts.[6][7] Since 1998, she has served on the board of the Greater Boston chapter of Physicians for Social Responsibility.[4] She received Clean Water Action's "Not in Anyone's Backyard Award" in 1998 and its "Children's Health Hero Award" in 2000, Toxic Action Center's "Citizen Award" in 1999, and Salem State College's "Friend of the Earth Award" in 2004.[8][9][10]"

ZERO EXPERIENCE YALL

Quote :

"Bernie bros who either sat out the election (bad) or voted third party in protest (worse), or voted for Trump just to spite Hillary (worst) all helped Trump win."

actually only voting for trump helped trump win. you are operating from your own perspective that hillary was the best candidate and are failing to realize that some people have different views that didn't align with HRC. Your view of HRC is so positive that you can't even fathom how someone could disagree with her. This is making you assume anyone who didn't vote for her did so as a temper tantrum or they were fooled by russian bots into thinking HRC was anything other than the ideal candidate you see her as.


[Edited on March 8, 2018 at 6:16 PM. Reason : k]

3/8/2018 6:01:32 PM

Actually, people who deliberately went out of their way to vote in protest of Hillary helped Trump win, since she won the popular vote and narrowly lost in Key states where third party votes played spoiler. It’s a cute attempt at a straw man you have in that post, but you should go back and reread what I actually wrote more carefully.

3/8/2018 10:09:20 PM

Let me show you the math. Say I was a Stein voter in Wisconsin. Here are the 2016 totals with Stein.

Trump: 1,405,284
Clinton: 1,382,536
Stein: 31,006

and here are the totals if no one voted for stein. Trump still wins.

Trump: 1,405,284
Clinton: 1,382,536

Point is, you can't just diminish the entire green party down to a protest of hillary. We have our own principals that would never lead one to vote Hillary or Trump.

Quote :

"Actually, people who deliberately went out of their way to vote in protest of Hillary helped Trump win, since she won the popular vote and narrowly lost in Key states where third party votes played spoiler. It’s a cute attempt at a straw man you have in that post, but you should go back and reread what I actually wrote more carefully."

The bolded part wasn't part of your other post and is a misrepresentation of stein voters. I know people who went deliberately out of their way to vote for Clinton to prevent trump but I don't know anyone who's views aligned with the democratic party that went out of their way to vote green. If that was the case, we clearly would have had higher totals. Stein underperformed the polls which supports my claim. The protest votes happened, but they all went to Trump, Johnson, and other people on the right.

If your main objective this election was to prevent Trump, then you should be embarrassed about taking the worst possible strategy to produce that outcome. In fact, you chose the strategy that would make the likelihood of that outcome highest.

Lesser of evils voters need to think about changing their approach. If the differences between democrat candidates was not important to you, you would have been better off voting in the republican primaries. It would have only taken one third of the democrat primary voters (10 million) to swing the republican primary to Kasich (he lost by 10 million). This would have guaranteed moderate Kasich as the worst possible outcome in the general and you still would have been able to vote for the democrat.

Why didn't you push this strategy? You should be embarrassed that you took the one path that allowed a Trump presidency.

[Edited on March 8, 2018 at 10:54 PM. Reason : you wasted your primary vote]

3/8/2018 10:46:39 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHS-K7OuLAc&sns=em

3/9/2018 12:02:24 PM

answer the question

3/9/2018 12:16:48 PM

quick mafs

3/9/2018 12:29:35 PM

Quote :

"Yeah yeah. We get it. We ALL share the blame in creating a monster like Trump. Well, except those of us who either happily voted for HRC, or held our noses because it was the right thing to do. "

so ujustwait is dodging for obvious reasons, but anyone else who shared the priority of avoiding a trump presidency. should answer the question.

3/9/2018 4:03:25 PM

Your dad is forty-four

3/9/2018 4:05:40 PM

^^show me on the doll where the Russian bot hurt you

[Edited on March 9, 2018 at 4:07 PM. Reason : .]

3/9/2018 4:07:30 PM

how long has it been simce russian bots infiltrated the green party? i always thought my progressive values were formed organically 8-10 years ago and that the russian bots were a recent thing.

Even if we assume i have been fooled by russian bots, that still doesnt answer the question that you are avoiding and aggressively trying to divert the discission away from.

[Edited on March 9, 2018 at 6:13 PM. Reason : dang]

3/9/2018 6:13:01 PM

none of them responded to or addressed the question because the answer reveals contradictions in their own logic.

thats why you saw ujustwait try to distract away from it then just disappear.

3/12/2018 10:56:59 AM

we are all russian bots and you broke our script, please wait while a human writes a response

3/12/2018 11:20:42 AM

I'm just in awe of his precognitive skills that allow him to know that all 30k Stein voters would have stayed home on election day if there was no Jill Stein on the ballot. Amazing.

3/12/2018 12:13:26 PM

Dude is demanding to know why generic Dems ITT didnt coordinate with 10 million other generic Dems (the population of NC BTW), distributed through all 50 states, to vote for a bible thumping shit stain like John Kasich in order to sink what was thought to be a long-shot candidate.


It’s such an easy lift, hard to imagine why it didn’t happen.

3/12/2018 12:36:15 PM

Yeah, about as crazy as 250,000 Greens coming together to vote for a warhawk.

This is all dumb speculation either way. Do you guys understand that its pointless and wrong to blame voters?

[Edited on March 12, 2018 at 12:39 PM. Reason : ..]

3/12/2018 12:38:44 PM

voting for stein was either a protest vote or done by someone who actually thought she was qualified to be president, it's equally dumb either way

3/12/2018 12:41:09 PM

Yeah we've heard that opinion about 1000 times. And again, the fault lies with the Democrat leadership, who gave zero real concessions to the progressive wing of the party.

3/12/2018 12:46:54 PM

how does that cause someone to think that stein is qualified to be president?

or are you saying these are just protest votes?

(in other words you can blame democrats for voters staying home, you can't blame them for people voting for stein)

[Edited on March 12, 2018 at 1:01 PM. Reason : .]

3/12/2018 12:57:55 PM

Some people voted for Stein because they liked her more than Clinton, some people voted for her out of protest, some people abstained entirely. The reason doesn't matter as much as the fact they didn't feel the Democratic Party would represent them.

It would have taken a minute effort to swing enough voters. Even picking Cory Booker (who is also bad), over Tim fucking Kaine.

Blame these assholes who couldn't care less about you, not people on the left you disagree with, but are ultimately on your side.

[Edited on March 12, 2018 at 1:11 PM. Reason : .]

3/12/2018 1:09:44 PM

it's dumb to think that stein is qualified to be president, and the democratic party isn't responsible for anyone thinking that

if you voted for stein and don't think she is qualified to be president, then that's a protest vote and is also dumb

people who voted for stein, and people who think stein is a reasonable candidate, deserve an equal amount of shame as people who voted for trump or thought he was a reasonable candidate

3/12/2018 1:14:35 PM

Ok, it's November 2016 and you've convinced me to vote for Clinton. Now convince the other 250,000 Green voters.

Would you say it's your job to do that or the Democrat leadership? Who failed?

3/12/2018 1:20:34 PM