If that were the case, the thousands of cloned Palpatines would certainly cheapen the whole prophecy of Anakin balancing the Force thing, don't you think? And a "Dark Jedi" that survived the Jedi Purge? You mean Jorus C'Baoth (or Joruus or Jouruuuuuuus) that was supposed to be the Jedi advisor to Emperor Palpatine? Please...

Good parody of the EU

http://boards.theforce.net/Prequel_Trilogy/b10669/840777/p1



[Edited on May 30, 2005 at 3:14 PM. Reason : .]

5/30/2005 3:01:35 PM

Quote :

"It's my understanding that it's canon until contradicted by the movies?"

No. It's just EU.

Quote :

"If that were the case, the thousands of cloned Palpatines would certainly cheapen the whole prophecy of Anakin balancing the Force thing, don't you think?"

No, because the Emperor wound up possessing his clones. Emperor dies, then Emperor's spirit (or what have you) goes into Clone Emperor body. It's the whole reason he wanted Leia's kid to begin with.

Quote :

"And a "Dark Jedi" that survived the Jedi Purge? You mean Jorus C'Baoth (or Joruus or Jouruuuuuuus) that was supposed to be the Jedi advisor to Emperor Palpatine? Please... "

The original C'Baoth was long dead before that. Zahn's stories have his clone going crazy.

And I can't even begin to tell you how stupid that link is.

[Edited on May 30, 2005 at 3:35 PM. Reason : .]

5/30/2005 3:34:36 PM

Quote :

"No, because the Emperor wound up possessing his clones. Emperor dies, then Emperor's spirit (or what have you) goes into Clone Emperor body. It's the whole reason he wanted Leia's kid to begin with."

So the whole purpose of Anakin Skywalker sacrificing himself to rid the Galaxy of the Sith once and for all was all really for nothing, wasn't it, if Palpatine could keep re-entering clones?

Quote :

"And I can't even begin to tell you how stupid that link is."

And I can't even begin to tell you how stupid the EU can be. A trilogy of books revolving around Luke's search for his mother? Who the fuck thought that would be a good idea for a series of Star Wars books?

[Edited on May 30, 2005 at 4:31 PM. Reason : .]

5/30/2005 4:30:41 PM

EU is nothing more than glorified fan fiction.

5/30/2005 4:50:31 PM

I agree. The "Exploited Universe" might be a better name for it.

5/30/2005 4:58:21 PM

Quote :

"So the whole purpose of Anakin Skywalker sacrificing himself to rid the Galaxy of the Sith once and for all was all really for nothing, wasn't it, if Palpatine could keep re-entering clones?"

Vader sacrificed himself to save his son. I can't say I'm a huge fan of the comic books (which is where the whole Clone Emperor comes from), but they're not terrible.

Quote :

"And I can't even begin to tell you how stupid the EU can be. A trilogy of books revolving around Luke's search for his mother? Who the fuck thought that would be a good idea for a series of Star Wars books?"

Did you see The Phantom Menace? Don't go preaching how stupid EU can be without realizing that there is some canon that is much worse.

There's a good portion of EU that's better than canon and a good part that's worse. Just like with anything.

5/30/2005 5:40:21 PM

Quote :

"Vader sacrificed himself to save his son. I can't say I'm a huge fan of the comic books (which is where the whole Clone Emperor comes from), but they're not terrible."

It's official: You have missed the whole point of 12 hours worth of movies. Congratulations.

It's not simply that Vader saved his son and killed the Emperor. He was trying to do that since he found out Luke was his son. That's what the Sith like to do--a third Sith causes one to gang up on the other.

The whole point of Return of the Jedi (and thus the climax of all six movies) is that it's a fight on many levels--Vader and Paplatine are fighting over Luke, and Luke is fighting the Dark side in Vader and Palpatine. Luke's only chance at holding out is to convert Anakin to the light and to get him to reject the Sith and completely destroy it. In this way, Luke seeks to destroy the two members of the Sith: First, he will "destroy" Darth Vader (thereby freeing Anakin within him), and Anakin will then destroy Darth Sidious.

Vader doesn't simply chose his son over the Emperor--he chooses to serve the Light side of the Force rather than the Dark side. In that, the Sith are destroyed. He fulfilled the prophecy that Qui-Gon Jinn said he would back in Episode I (albeit in a roundabout way--but that's how prophecies tend to work in mythology).

Therefore, to have the Emperor come back to life, that simply negates the WHOLE POINT of all six movies. What purpose did Anakin then serve?

[Edited on May 30, 2005 at 6:12 PM. Reason : .]

5/30/2005 5:49:46 PM

Quote :

"It's official: You have missed the whole point of 12 hours worth of movies. Congratulations."

Oh, believe me. I get it. Vader kills Palpatine in order to protect his son, unless it's in the book there's absolutely no indication that Vader's motive is the destruction of the Sith. 10 minutes earlier he's trying to convert Luke to the Dark side so they can topple Palpatine together. He always chooses Luke over Palpatine. So it makes no sense that Vader's intention in killing Palpatine was to destroy the Sith, because he already had so much invested in the Sith. Destruction of the Sith was certainly Luke's goal, but not Vader's.

Vader wanted to save his son and, in turn, wound up saving himself. He does wind up rejecting the Dark side but doesn't do so until he saves Luke. The decision was "should I save my son or should I not?" and not "should I go back to the Light side, abandon all the power of a Sith, kill the Emperor, etc.?" He wanted Palpatine dead anyway and knew if Luke could be turned, Luke would be more useful. Just because Vader chose Luke over Palps didn't mean that he couldn't still be a Sith lord. I mean, assuming Vader winds up living after killing Palpatine, do you think he wouldn't have tried to convert Luke? With Palpatine dead, he'd have sole rule over the entire galaxy, and Sith love power.

But, in what way, exactly, does Anakin killing Palpatine and returning to the light side bring balance to the Force? The only person, light or dark, who is left is Luke and that's not "balance".

Quote :

"Therefore, to have the Emperor come back to life, that simply negates the WHOLE POINT of all six movies. What purpose did Anakin then serve?"

Anakin's prophecy in the first three movies is to bring balance, which he does when there are 2 Sith and 2 Jedi left. Luke is the wildcard through the original trilogy. He destroys the balance.

The Clone Emperor winds up reinstating the balance.

5/30/2005 6:28:15 PM

Quote :

"But, in what way, exactly, does Anakin killing Palpatine and returning to the light side bring balance to the Force? The only person, light or dark, who is left is Luke and that's not "balance"."

It doesn't mean balance literally. Balance in this sense means "harmony" (and this actually came from Lucas himself when asked what the prophecy meant).

Even without the interview itself, look at the context in which that word "balance" is used. If Anakin were to really bring "balance" to the Force, wouldn't Qui-Gon Jinn and every other member of the Jedi Council (including Obi-Wan) cut him in half right there? That whole statement by Obi-Wan about "It was said that you would bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness" would then seem odd considering the circumstances.

Quote :

"Anakin's prophecy in the first three movies is to bring balance, which he does when there are 2 Sith and 2 Jedi left. Luke is the wildcard through the original trilogy. He destroys the balance. The Clone Emperor winds up reinstating the balance. "

So according to that theory, when Anakin destroys the Emperor, he then destroys all the Sith, thus disrupting the balance then and there.

Quote :

"Just because Vader chose Luke over Palps didn't mean that he couldn't still be a Sith lord. I mean, assuming Vader winds up living after killing Palpatine, do you think he wouldn't have tried to convert Luke? With Palpatine dead, he'd have sole rule over the entire galaxy, and Sith love power. "

So the whole concept of redemption is completely out the window? Funny, George Lucas doesn't seem to think so (USA Today, 22 April 2005.)

Quote :

" But taken as a whole, Lucas says, the six-chapter space opera is 'is really about Darth Vader. It's about Anakin's descent and the redemption of Vader'"

So the whole theory of Vader not rejecting the Sith (and thus) evil means no redemption, thus indicates a complete lack of understanding of what's going on here.


[Edited on May 30, 2005 at 7:16 PM. Reason : .]

5/30/2005 6:57:47 PM

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

5/30/2005 7:29:49 PM

Quote :

"It doesn't mean balance literally. Balance in this sense means "harmony" (and this actually came from Lucas himself when asked what the prophecy meant)."

He brings balance to the Force well before he brings harmony. What is harmony even supposed to mean in that context? Why would it be at all harmonious for only the Light side to exist?

Quote :

"So according to that theory, when Anakin destroys the Emperor, he then destroys all the Sith, thus disrupting the balance then and there."

Yes, because of Luke.

Quote :

"So the whole theory of Vader not rejecting the Sith (and thus) evil means no redemption, thus indicates a complete lack of understanding of what's going on here."

It's why Vader dies. If he doesn't, there's no redemption at all.

If Vader doesn't die, you're going to have a lot of trouble pawning a merciless destroyer of worlds and people off as being redeemed.

Given everything Lucas has ever shown us about the Sith and Anakin, I don't understand why it would be so hard to conceive that him killing the Emperor wouldn't necessarily mean a change in his ways had he survived the incident.

5/30/2005 7:37:08 PM

in the prequels the "shroud of the dark side" has clouded the force

it's mentioned many times

anakin brings balance by ultimately destroying the dark side (or pushing it back a little bit, whatever sounds better to you)

[Edited on May 30, 2005 at 7:48 PM. Reason : sdg]

5/30/2005 7:48:09 PM

Quote :

"The anakin/padme dialogue is no cheesier then what we say in real life. It was actually very realistic in its cheese."

ahahaha you loser.

5/30/2005 7:49:58 PM

i haven't seen them in a while, but is the word "sith" ever mentioned in the original trilogy? i remember seeing episode 1 and not recognizing it

5/30/2005 7:59:19 PM

Quote :

"He brings balance to the Force well before he brings harmony. What is harmony even supposed to mean in that context? Why would it be at all harmonious for only the Light side to exist?"

It means exactly what all the Jedi are expecting it to mean. That Anakin will destroy the Sith (remember Obi-Wan's comment when Anakin is wounded? That pretty much sums up what the Jedi expect of Anakin.)

Do you even pay attention? Honestly...

Let's examine the scenes in which the Prophecy is mentioned. Just for the hell of it, I will assume that you are correct and that in this sence "balance" means equaling both the Jedi and the Sith (Thereby completely ignoring anything George Lucas himself said. But then again, we wouldn't want George Lucas telling us what the whole point of his six-part movie is, would we?)

Star Wars: Episode I

Quote :

" Mace Windu: You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force? You believe it's this...boy? Yoda: Hmmm, since only two Sith there are, the only way of "balancing" the Force there is, to reduce our numbers to only two. Qui-Gon: Ooooh, ouch. This sounds a lot like corporate downsizing. Obi-Wan: The boy is dangerous! He's going to destroy the Jedi until only there's two of us left! Don't you think that we ought to chop him in half right now? Yoda: Make too much sense, you do, Obi-Wan. Your apprentice, Skywalker, will be. Obi-Wan: I have a bad feeling about this... "

Star Wars: Episode II

Quote :

" Mace Windu: Remember--if the prophecy is true, your apprentice is the only one who can bring the Force back into balance. Obi-Wan: Okay. In that case, I hope he slips and misses a speeder the next time he tries to catch it. Wouldn't want him reducing our numbers to only two Jedi in the entire Galaxy, would we? Mace Windu: I have a bad feeling about this... "

Star Wars: Episode III

Quote :

" Obi-Wan: Is Anakin not to bring balance to the Force? Yoda: Misread, the prophecy may be. Obi-Wan: You mean, like, after Anakin kills off the Jedi, we might think the prophecy was false or refers to another, when really, twenty years later, he unexpectedly fulfills it with the help of his son? Yoda: Make sense, you do, my young one. Obi-Wan: Well it was either that or the theory of 'balance' that there would be only two Jedi and two Sith. But then again, that theory came from theforce.net . Did you know they actually thought that there would be a "Darth Detori" in Episode II played by Catherine Zeta-Jones? Mace: I have a bad feeling about this... "

And finally, at the climax of Episode III:

Quote :

" Obi-Wan: You were the Chosen One! It was said that you would destroy the Sith! Bring balance to the Force, not...oh wait, yeah I guess that did happen. Hmmm, too bad you killed Mace Windu because now he owes me twenty bucks over that whole 'Chosen One' bet. Well, ta ta now. Anakin: I have a bad feeling about this...oh, that's just me burning. My bad. "

And to look at your "argument" more closely...

Quote :

"It's why Vader dies. If he doesn't, there's no redemption at all. If Vader doesn't die, you're going to have a lot of trouble pawning a merciless destroyer of worlds and people off as being redeemed."

The "Vader" aspect dies when he destroys the Emperor. Then, the Sith are no more and he becomes the "good" Anakin Skywalker. That whole point of "there's good in him" and "Anakin was a good man" was completely lost on you, wasn't it?

Quote :

"Given everything Lucas has ever shown us about the Sith and Anakin, I don't understand why it would be so hard to conceive that him killing the Emperor wouldn't necessarily mean a change in his ways had he survived the incident."

Again, you must have been getting popcorn when it was explained that there was still good in Anakin himself.

[Edited on May 30, 2005 at 8:14 PM. Reason : .]

5/30/2005 8:06:23 PM

Quote :

"The Expanded Universe (or EU for short) is a collection of fictional background material from the Star Wars universe that is derived from official novels, comic books, and various other media besides the movies themselves. The Expanded Universe is considered canonical by Lucasfilm Ltd., though secondary to the movie canon."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanded_Universe_(Star_Wars)

?


Although a subsection near the bottom claims that some dispute it.

5/30/2005 8:10:15 PM

I'd need a better source than wikkiwikkiwikkipedia

5/30/2005 8:56:15 PM

Quote :

"Again, you must have been getting popcorn when it was explained that there was still good in Anakin himself."

i agree

he was suiduced (sp) by the dark side

the vision didnt make him evil, but the way the emperor played on his fears, did

5/30/2005 9:03:55 PM

This prophecy is so incredibly vague it's useless to argue how (if at all) it was fulfilled.

I honestly think 2 Jedi + 2 Sith is a weak argument though. If that's the case, then Anakin pushed the force back out of balance when he killed Obi-Wan in Episode IV.

5/30/2005 9:04:43 PM

^ not really, cuz obi-wan was training luke, so 2 jedi, 2 sith.

5/30/2005 10:21:30 PM

Bah, let's just blame it on bad writing. There was obviously no concept of a "prophecy" until Lucas saw how successful the orginal trilogy was, and had to pull some excuse out of his ass for why Anakin goes to the dark side. I suppose it's one thing that prophecies are almost never clear-cut or accurately defined, but it also seems to me that there are too many contradictions all over the place for it to purely be a story-thing. This just sounds to me like the whole notion of the prophecy was just poorly contrived by the writer himself.

5/30/2005 10:26:37 PM

ahem

Quote :

"i haven't seen them in a while, but is the word "sith" ever mentioned in the original trilogy? i remember seeing episode 1 and not recognizing it"

5/30/2005 10:39:29 PM

it was only 1 line in the last movie

5/30/2005 10:40:10 PM

This thread has officially been nerded to death

5/30/2005 10:42:33 PM

"prophecies" in movies, tv shows, books, stories, or whatever are used to guide the plot

maybe they come true, maybe they don't, but the main reason they are there are to build off of

5/31/2005 12:40:15 AM

Seeing as how the Force is everything, bringing balance to it is more then just having equal Jedi and Sith. It's about peace and harmony and keeping everything in a natural order. Having two Sith Lords spreading tyranny through all intelligent beings does not "balance the force" while Yoda and Obi-Wan are hidding simply because in their exile they are a non-factor and there is no "light side" to offset the Dark.

Need we forget the Death Star destroying a planet?

At the end of Ep 6 Anakin kills both Vader and Palpatine in order to save his son. The shroud of the Dark side is lifted. Harmony and peace is restored to the Force.

Anakin turns to the light side of the force because he essentially sacrifices himself to save his Son, something a Sith would never do and something Vader didn't do even while force choking Padme. It isn't him becoming good as a byproduct of saving his son, its him saving his son as a byproduct of choosing the light side which ultimately would lead to his demise.

5/31/2005 12:47:39 PM

I wonder what Lucas will change in Episode III for the DVD release.

5/31/2005 12:49:29 PM

5/31/2005 1:32:24 PM

eheheheh

5/31/2005 1:35:05 PM

So after seeing it again, I was wondering - did anyone else notice what looked like a scar around Palpatine's neck...? For some reason, that really jumped out at me.

5/31/2005 1:56:13 PM

Quote :

"This highground adds +5 to my agility!"

aaaahahahah


So after seeing it a couple more times here's what I think about the Obi Wan v. Anakin scene. Obi Wan knew that he could never beat Anakin in a straight-up fight, so he purposely lost ground to Anakin, counting on Anakin's clouded mind to allow him to get stuck in a disadvantageous situation.

However, even this didn't work and I believe when Obi Wan walked out onto the potato-masher shield thingy, he was intending to kill both Anakin and himself by drawing Anakin into an inescapable situation. He may have seen this as the only way to defeat Anakin, and Obi Wan has demonstrated many times that he has little regard for his own life.

But no one I've talked to wants to buy the kamakaze Obi Wan theory.

5/31/2005 4:02:46 PM

^ i prefer the theory that he simply pwnt anakin like the little bitch that he is, it only took him ten minutes to do it because he didnt want to kill his old student and former friend.

5/31/2005 5:08:49 PM

shit
i'm down with kamikaze obi-wan

good call

5/31/2005 5:12:00 PM

Quote :

"i prefer the theory that he simply pwnt anakin like the little bitch that he is, it only took him ten minutes to do it because he didnt want to kill his old student and former friend."

5/31/2005 5:34:16 PM

HALF A DOZEN ON ONE HAND
6 ON THE OTHER

5/31/2005 5:51:49 PM

it's not the same at all!

In one theory, Obi Wan is a little bitch who couldn't lightsaber his way out of a wet paper bag

In the other, Obi Wan is the badass we all know him to be

5/31/2005 5:57:52 PM

wtf

kamikaze's are bad ass!

5/31/2005 5:58:22 PM

Quote :

"But no one I've talked to wants to buy the kamakaze Obi Wan theory."

I dunno, I'd say that's pretty interesting. Makes sense... "from a certain point of view."

5/31/2005 5:58:37 PM

I like to think that Obi Wan could beat Anakin in a fair fight without resorting to killing himself

5/31/2005 6:03:25 PM

Outside of his actual death, I can't recall when Obi-Wan demonstrated a disregard for his own life. He's certainly been brash at times, like when he jumped down into a room full of droids to fight Grievous, but I think in most instances any "disregard" he showed was due to the fact that he had a duty as a Jedi and had faith in the Force.

Quote :

"i prefer the theory that he simply pwnt anakin like the little bitch that he is because anakin's a dumb ass, it only took him ten minutes to do it because he didnt want to kill his old student and former friend. "

5/31/2005 6:10:33 PM

^ "Leave me, think of the mission!" as buzz droids were tearing his ship apart. But exactly-- when a mission was at stake. Killing Anakin was a mission from Yoda.

Quote :

"In one theory, Obi Wan is a little bitch who couldn't lightsaber his way out of a wet paper bag In the other, Obi Wan is the badass we all know him to be"

It doesn't imply that at all. It says that Obi Wan was outmatched physically, but pwnt Anakin when it came to intelligence and experience.

[Edited on May 31, 2005 at 6:34 PM. Reason : .]

5/31/2005 6:33:09 PM

5/31/2005 7:10:35 PM

Quote :

""Leave me, think of the mission!" as buzz droids were tearing his ship apart."

Damn, that scene was so stupid. Why'd they have to make Obi-Wan seem so helpless? Why couldn't he have force pushed the silly little things?

That and being owned by Dooku made him seem somewhat lame in Episode III. (There may have been shenanigans involved in the fight with Dooku, though.)

I guess not being able to beat Anakin in a fair fight also makes him seem weaker.

But so what? Who cares if Obi-Wan wasn't as powerful as Anakin? Honestly, did anyone ever believe that Old Ben could beat Vader? No, of course not. He's still an awesome character.

(That doesn't make the buzz droid bit acceptable, though. Being owned by a buzz droid is almost as bad as being owned by an Ewok.)

5/31/2005 7:17:18 PM

Quote :

"But no one I've talked to wants to buy the kamakaze Obi Wan theory."

if you notice, when obi wan jumps onto the square platform on the lava and anakin jumps on that little droid thing that they control where they go in the lava. they use the force to move the platforms they're on. obi wan just talks to anakin and begins an argument to distract him so he can get to the higher ground.

6/1/2005 12:18:03 AM

i honestly thought they were like star-wars segways

i didn't really think they were using the force

6/1/2005 12:37:18 AM

nah dude, anakin's definitely controlling where he's going

how else would you explain them actually being able to lightsabre fight on two different platforms floating on lava?

6/1/2005 12:58:45 AM

^^^ Yeah, at that point Obi Wan definitely believed he had a chance. I'm wondering if he believed it throughout the entirety of the fight. Why else would he choose to move onto the potato masher thing? (well, perhaps it was Anakin who chose to make the move, in which case one has to ask whether or not Padme turning against Anakin made him somewhat suicidal.)

And they definitely were using the force to moce the platforms. The little droid that Anakin jumped onto was all "wtf?!" when it happened. There's no way it would have jumped into a fight without being forced to.


P.S. One huge disappointment for me was that they didn't use the force to fling lava at each other. I was so ready for that after I saw the trailer.

6/1/2005 1:09:57 AM

I hate to break the continuity of the conversation, but WHOA WHOA WHOA:

Quote :

"I honestly think 2 Jedi + 2 Sith is a weak argument though. If that's the case, then Anakin pushed the force back out of balance when he killed Obi-Wan in Episode IV."

Anakin DID NOT kill Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan sacrifices himself/becomes one with the force BEFORE Anakin's saber even touches his robe, hence why Anakin pokes at the empty robe on the ground.

6/1/2005 1:18:47 AM

I don't really see any evidence of that. When Yoda dies the same way, it's pretty clear that he was supposed to be "dead". And Vader could've been poking the robe because he's killed dozens of Jedi and that was the first one to disappear when he died.

6/1/2005 8:36:51 AM

I've intentionally avoided watching Episode I since 1999 but didn't Qui-Gon get funeral pyred to ashes?

6/1/2005 8:58:27 AM