Oh, I see what you meant now.

1/14/2006 2:39:15 PM

I want a new drug - one that won't make me sick,
One that won't make me crash my car, or make me feel three feet thick.
I want a new drug - one that won't hurt my head,
One that won't make my mouth too dry, or make my eyes too red.

One that won't make me nervous, wonderin' what to do.
One that makes me feel like I feel when I'm with you, when I'm alone with you.

I want a new drug - one that won't spill.
One that don't cost too much, or come in a pill.
I want a new drug - one that won't go away,
One that won't keep me up all night, one that won't make me sleep all day.
One that won't make me nervous, wonderin' what to do ...
I'm alone with you, baby.

I want a new drug - one that does what it should,
One that won't make me feel too bad,
One that won't make me feel too good.
I want a new drug - one with no doubt,
One that won't make me nervous, wonderin' what to do. ...
I'm alone with you, I'm alone with you, yeah.

1/14/2006 4:31:55 PM

Quote :

"You don't understand what psychedelics do, and your assumptions are based on nothing."

OK, answer me one question:

1) When you use pyschedlics, do you see/hear/perceive shit or changes in shit that are not physically there?

I'm pretty sure that the short, no-bs answer is, "Yes."

If you see/hear/perceive shit that is not physically there, you are departing from reality.

I do not need to drop acid to know this.

[Edited on January 14, 2006 at 9:41 PM. Reason : ]

1/14/2006 9:40:53 PM

me neitehr, cuz you just blew me away. my mind is numb... well not really, but im really bored and running out of threads that ive actually read.

1/14/2006 9:44:31 PM

The short and shitty answer is yes, but you are still mistaken about it. It is generally not hard to realize what is and is not being hallucinated. This has nothing to do with what the drug does mentally though. It will shove real issues, "REALITY," into your face. I don't see how you can dispute this without having tried it btw.

I didn't deny that you experience your perceptions in a different manner. I said that using it for the purpose of "escaping reality" is stupid, because you wont "escape" it. Just because you're hallucinating some patterns and movement doesn't mean you wont dwell on a problem. In fact it means it will fuck with your head much more than it would have normally because of the more "vulnerable" (For lack of a better word) mental state you'll be in.

[Edited on January 15, 2006 at 1:14 AM. Reason : ]

1/15/2006 1:03:11 AM

^kind of like some exams I've taken.

1/15/2006 1:16:27 AM

i think the problem is the utter vagueness of your statement saab. you arent articulating whatever you know very well and saying "you just wont understand unless you've done it" aint gonna cut it in an argument. i get what youre trying to say but this is what ive commented on earlier. i want to see some type of reason you have for assuming this to be the common experience.

1/15/2006 9:19:20 AM

Quote :

" OK, answer me one question: 1) When you use pyschedlics, do you see/hear/perceive shit or changes in shit that are not physically there?"

I just thought this was funny, considering my story about my first LSD experience.
It happened on the fifth floor of Metcalf Hall in May of 1997 ...

perceiving shit or changes in shit?
I had the sensation that I had taken a shit in my pants. It REALLY felt like I had shit my scrubs pajama pants, and I even thought that I saw a brown spot on part of the leg. I was so embarassed that I creeped to the bathroom across the hall, hoping that nobody would see me. When I got to the stall and pulled down my pants, there was NOTHING there.
So yes, I was perceiving shit or changes in shit that were not physically there!

1/15/2006 11:01:03 AM

nothing says fun like imagining you shit your pants. i cant wait to try lsd...

[Edited on January 15, 2006 at 11:22 AM. Reason : it is a pretty funny/good story though]

1/15/2006 11:21:41 AM

Quote :

" It will shove real issues, "REALITY," into your face."

You're using "reality" here in a pretty lame sense. I think that's the problem.

Quote :

"Just because you're hallucinating some patterns and movement doesn't mean you wont dwell on a problem."

I don't disagree at all. I even SPECIFICALLY SAID that I didn't know/think that LSD would help you escape from some negative emotion or problem, several posts back. But problems =/= all reality.

1/15/2006 12:09:08 PM

Interesting article, and sheds light as to why Cisco doesn't do drug testing...

http://wired.com/news/technology/1,70015-0.html

excerpt:

Quote :

" When Kevin Herbert has a particularly intractable programming problem, or finds himself pondering a big career decision, he deploys a powerful mind expanding tool -- LSD-25. "It must be changing something about the internal communication in my brain. Whatever my inner process is that lets me solve problems, it works differently, or maybe different parts of my brain are used, " said Herbert, 42, an early employee of Cisco Systems who says he solved his toughest technical problems while tripping to drum solos by the Grateful Dead -- who were among the many artists inspired by LSD. "When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing," said Herbert who intervened to ban drug testing of technologists at Cisco Systems. Herbert, who lives in Santa Cruz, California, joined 2,000 researchers, scientists, artists and historians gathered here over the weekend to celebrate the 100th birthday of Albert Hofmann, the Swiss chemist who discovered LSD here in 1938. The centenarian received a congratulatory birthday letter from the Swiss president, roses and a spontaneous kiss from a young woman in the crowd."

1/17/2006 10:29:15 AM

i wish i could have been there

Quote :

"When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing,"

pretty much sums it up

1/17/2006 10:44:06 AM

oh man, I knew a guy in college who would do tons of programming while tripping. Personally, I can't look at a computer screen for more than a minute or two in that state, but hey, more power to ya.

that IS really interesting

1/17/2006 11:02:40 AM

Quote :

"You're using "reality" here in a pretty lame sense. I think that's the problem."

Quote :

"I don't disagree at all. I even SPECIFICALLY SAID that I didn't know/think that LSD would help you escape from some negative emotion or problem, several posts back. But problems =/= all reality."

I was arguing the point that most people do not take psychedelic drugs to "escape reality," and that if they did it would not serve that purpose very well at all.

When I hear a statement like "[insert name] uses LSD to escape reality," I can't help but think that you mean as a literal "escape." This is not what people generally use psychedelics for, there are plenty of other substances that serve that purpose. Hence I used what I thought to be your definition of "reality" (The thing needing to be escaped, in the context of our discussion) in my own response.

Quote :

"I think the problem is the utter vagueness of your statement saab. you arent articulating whatever you know very well and saying "you just wont understand unless you've done it" aint gonna cut it in an argument."

Many of the things I've said may have sounded vague because no amount of words will ever properly describe the psychedelic experience. That argument is going to have to cut it, because it is 100% true. It's pointless for me to continue trying to explain it though, because those of you that haven't experienced it can simply twist everything I say into nothingness.

[Edited on January 17, 2006 at 5:40 PM. Reason : ]

1/17/2006 5:12:51 PM

well thats the whole point of these types of arguments

1/17/2006 5:43:27 PM

Well, I dunno. I don't find it unreasonable that even a fairly happy person might want to depart from reality for a while. Certainly I do from time to time, even in good moods, if only to know what else is going on. You have to understand that for me the temptation to use LSD or other hallucinagens is fairly strong, and that, at times, my abstinence from doing so has only occured because I have begged my friends in my more lucid moments to restrain me.

But no, I don't doubt that psychedelics have a very strong potential to simply magnify whatever is on your mind, at a concious level or otherwise. They would not be my first choice to simply "get happy." I might take the chance if there were no booze or perhaps other substances left, but yeah, I generally agree with you on the point you have made. I generally still think that it's important that we stick to certain definitions if we're going to have a reasonable discourse on the subject.

1/18/2006 2:12:31 AM

Quote :

"1) When you use pyschedlics, do you see/hear/perceive shit or changes in shit that are not physically there? I'm pretty sure that the short, no-bs answer is, "Yes.""

Odd answer to an even more oddly worded question. Most of the objects of the hallucination exist in objective reality, and are physically there.

Quote :

"If you see/hear/perceive shit that is not physically there, you are departing from reality. I do not need to drop acid to know this."

One of the primary reasons many LSD experiencers can't describe what's happened to them is because of the fluidity that reality takes on; it's like attempting to explain your state of mind while in live combat, near and through the point of orgasm, or participating in world class athletic competitions. Reality as you experience it becomes much more like a canvas, but with a basic framework already in place.

That's why someone like me, not disingineously winces at your choice of words here. It's not a departing from reality, more like a totally altered absorption in it; during which, yes, some visual, auditory, and other sensory distortions occur, but they are only distortions and rarely (if ever) complete, honest-to-god hallucinations. Fading echoes, visual "trails," and color splashes are the most common ones.

The hallucinations that do occur are usually hallucinations of context. A person could have an unpreviously noticed fear of four-legged chairs all of a sudden, or a sudden incredible revelation about the omnipotence of coasters, or may become passionately in love with a signpost (I've seen one of these happen). The point is that the object of their hallucination actually exists, it's their reaction to it that has become altered.

Now, this does open up the line of argument that begins "but what if someone becomes incurably frightened of their children" or something. I have no idea what to tell you except caveat emptor. I'm not a fan of legalizing the drug and passing it out in the streets. I'm a fan of legalizing the drug, making the facts about its effects available, and creating a safe venue for its consumption.

[Edited on January 18, 2006 at 6:28 PM. Reason : ...]

1/18/2006 6:15:55 PM

^good explaination. Thats why its so frustrating when people are like "whats it like" its the worst drug to try and sum up in a couple sentences.

1/18/2006 9:38:22 PM

SOLDIERS ON ACID!!!1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=517198059628627413

2/5/2006 11:45:44 PM

Quote :

" 1) When you use pyschedlics, do you see/hear/perceive shit or changes in shit that are not physically there? "

As far as LSD (acid) goes, one generally DOES NOT see or hear things that are not there. you do not have full blown hallucinations of imaginary shit, like some video or cartoon being played inside your head.

what you DO have, is an altered perception of reality. your visual and aural perceptions are "changed"...... its like a signal processing filter, where what is there becomes shifted, or distored, or remixed -- taking on a whole new look or sound... the person experiencing the drug interprets it as an alternate perspective on the reality. the problem with LSD (acid) is, that one can sometimes easily become paranoid or agitated, and it becomes quite difficult to interact with normal (sober) people in normal social situations. For this reason, people tend to take their "trips" with others, and remain with them for the duration.

that link about the artist who took LSD in the 1950s then drew several pictures over an eight hour period, had this observation from the attending doctor:

Quote :

"Upon completing the drawing the patient starts laughing, then becomes startled by something on the floor"

i found that to be funny and accurate.

As far as psylocybin (mushrooms) go, there is often less of a visual/audial distortion, and more of a "heightened" mental awareness. ive found that this often amplifies spiritual/supernatural perceptions regarding mundane events. There is generally less agitation and/or paranoia, and the user is generally more able and interested in interacting with people in social situations. often because the user feels compelled to explain their newly discoverd "theory of <whatever>" in some detail.

2/6/2006 12:46:12 AM

Ergo my saying, "or changes in shit that are not there."

You don't have to imagine a purple elephant to be hallucinating. The second your perceptions deviate from reality, its happening.

2/6/2006 4:03:28 AM

^

Quote :

"your perceptions deviate from reality"

You're still missing the point, Grump.
Your perceptions don't deviate from reality, instead, your perceptions are heightened and enhanced. Reality becomes closer, not further away. It seems like you're still making the mistake of assuming that psychoactive drug experiences must all somehow be inebriating or stupefying, like those of alcohol. That simply isn't the case.

2/6/2006 8:34:18 AM

No, you're clinging onto this warped definition of reality as something other than what we normally perceive. It can't get "closer" or "further." The second that you think it has, you have stepped off the reality boat.

And I don't know about "inebriating or stupefying," per se, but I'll stick with "incapacitating."

2/6/2006 12:54:40 PM

Oh please. As if reality is something you experience daily...

Just as a test, answer me this. In reality, are any of the objects around you as solid as they appear to be?

2/6/2006 1:01:42 PM

The way drugs affect consciousness (if indeed they affect it all) is really freaking weird. For example, pot virgins can smoke weed and get all the physical changes but not experience altered conscious. Likewise, you get completely altered consciousness (just like an LSD trip) without drugs at all.

2/6/2006 1:07:29 PM

Quote :

"No, you're clinging onto this warped definition of reality as something other than what we normally perceive. It can't get "closer" or "further." The second that you think it has, you have stepped off the reality boat. And I don't know about "inebriating or stupefying," per se, but I'll stick with "incapacitating.""

I find your statement mildly amusing, mostly because it's you doing the "clinging."

First you question my statements about it "pushing reality into your face." Then when numerous other people with actual experience say the same thing in different words you continue to argue this point. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Also, if you want to get down to using exact definitions, LSD isn't really a "hallucinogen." LSD is a psychedelic (Which literally means "Mind opening" or "Mind expanding"). It does not cause hallucinations like true hallucinogenic drugs do.

2/6/2006 4:22:28 PM

Quote :

"Your perceptions don't deviate from reality, instead, your perceptions are heightened and enhanced."

this seems a matter of semantics to me. im going with grump on this one. it seems like you are assuming deviation is automatically negative. it is an altered sense plain and simple, be it "pushing reality in your face" or "heightening your perception through a change in aural interpretation/reception/whatever."

ive already said what ive wanted to in this thread and still think it is absurd that druggies assume you cant have valid opinion on things unless you've tried them. i dont see how the bias is any different than trying and liking. you're going to have confirmation bias either way.

2/6/2006 5:35:25 PM

I wouldn't go with Grump anyway. Your perceptions don't deviate from reality, they deviate from your prior perceptions,which, in truth, had very little to do with objective reality to begin with.

2/6/2006 10:52:26 PM

If you want to experience an acid trip, as real as it can get without actually taking LSD...

rent "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas"

its autobiographical of Hunter S. Thompson and i swear, every time i watch it, it damn near triggers flashbacks. it's an extremely accurate portrayal of some serious tripping.

...at least up until that satanic part with the powdered human adrenal gland -- i aint never heard about no shit like that.

2/6/2006 11:20:41 PM

oddly enough, adrenachrome does exist, however it's psychoactivity is highly debatable.

2/6/2006 11:42:59 PM

sounds like voudou to me.

2/6/2006 11:45:10 PM

i'd recommend something different.

if you want to see an LSD-like effect, all you have to do is look at one of those moving spiral-things online for 60 seconds then look at your hand. that's about as good as it gets visually.

2/7/2006 1:33:49 AM

yeah thatll make your head spin.

2/7/2006 2:07:22 AM

forgive me, but pictures on a screen don't come close to what you can see with your own eyes on your own hand

2/7/2006 2:09:10 AM

It's nice to see some well informed psychonauts on here. Where have you all been hiding?

Anybody have perfect pitch? There's an experiment I want to run...

2/8/2006 12:44:29 AM

Quote :

"theDuke866: (2) even besides that, not enough other politicians would take that chance to give it a snowball's chance in hell of passing, so why shoot yourself in the foot politically?"

To take a radical stand in favor of liberty? Of course, governments don't exist to extend freedoms, moreso to take them away. So, I guess I must be trippin'.

I wouldn't expect a politician to go out on a limb in favor of rescheduling LSD explicitly. Burying it into a larger proposal to reschedule it and other drugs, or a larger general reform on our nation's unwaveringly Draconian drug laws would make a lot more sense to me.

Quote :

"joe_schmoe: yeah thatll make your head spin."

To clarify, the experiment I'm talking about, when done correctly, gives you the visual perception that the skin on your hand is in motion, rising and falling as if bugs were running around under it. It's not a simple case of "oooh look at the spinning spiral thingy."

2/8/2006 3:09:08 AM

^ ok. ill give it a try.

2/8/2006 3:21:18 AM