i pity the fool who thinks we were talking about changing things on a "personal level"

3/9/2006 6:31:23 PM

^i realize you weren't, but it's still a legitimate reason to keep it legal

[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 6:34 PM. Reason : .]

3/9/2006 6:34:31 PM

no its not. there are plenty of things that could "affect people." thats not a good enough reason to make them legal

3/9/2006 6:35:12 PM

Quote :

"You're not paying attention then. Maybe they're just jokes, but I've read it plenty."

But I've yet to see anyone seriously claim that there is any widespread threat of women trying to get pregnant in order to rake in the child support. I've certainly seen a couple of examples of women trying to get pregnant so that the man will feel compelled to marry them, but that's a completely separate -- and completely minor -- issue.

Quote :

"I was just tryna be contrary because I knew you guys were gonna get all excited like this confirms the fact that women are scheming whores."

Here we go again. Even though your position has shifted, it still holds as its root some variation on man-hating.

Let me repeat to you as I have many times before: I have not run into anybody who opposes abortion because they want more control over you, your body, your career, or anything pertaining to you. ("You," of course, referring to women in general)

We don't oppose abortion because we oppose fornication. I would bet that the overwhelming majority of pro-life people on here have participated in that activity. We don't oppose it because we want to keep you from advancing at work. We don't oppose it to keep your pay lower or your life options limited. We oppose abortion because we oppose killing for convenience, which I think we can all agree is not a right of any kind.

---

And another thing: I think society should do everything in its power to get women to report rapes. Let's take abortion out of it completely for a second. Should a woman's "right" to not be embarrassed to tell/prove to police that she's been raped outweigh the massive benefit to society that might come from catching the rapist?

Any woman who refuses to turn in or contribute to the investigation of a rapist when she has the power to do so is, in some fashion, reprehensible. She could work to save other people from suffering her fate, but in order to preserve her "pride" and "dignity," she maintains silence and condems others. That's wrong. That's all it is. If offering the abortion option to people who come forward about rape serves as a carrot to get them to turn in their attackers, then I say we use it so we can punish the scum.

3/9/2006 9:08:00 PM

Pride and dignity are not words you should be putting in quotes, by the way. I didn't use those words and using them in quotes kind of belittles the notion that pride and dignity are important to some people.

But on to your point. I just totally disagree. Yes, it is awesome if a woman is empowered enough to report a rape. That's fabulous that possibly having her sexual history paraded in front a jury is something she is strong enough to endure. That's great that she can handle reliving the incident over and over again, knowing that the case might fall through, leaving her to look like a liar. But I do not think a woman is wrong for wanting to put it behind her and move on (yet I also know for a fact that later a woman can become pretty disturbed by the fact that she didn't report the rape).

You think it's wrong. I think it's life.

[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 9:19 PM. Reason : sss]

3/9/2006 9:19:04 PM

while we've jumped over to a rape conversation, and still on the topic of men's rights, I think all rape allegations should be out of the public eye until after conviction. Not for allt he scumbags that are guilty, but for the very few who are falsely accused and still have their lives ruined because of it. Just an accusation, even if undeniably not guilty, could completely tank someone's life because of social persecution, and that's not really fair.

3/9/2006 9:24:23 PM

so, in short, Bridget, women should continue to let the guy be on the loose so he can rape more women and make them miserable, too. got it!

3/9/2006 10:05:42 PM

^I get that that is a consequence, and it sucks. It really does. But I still don't think it's wrong for a woman to not report a rape.

Now please stop blaming rapes on the women who aren't reporting them. Blame the rapers, not the victims.

[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 10:13 PM. Reason : sss]

3/9/2006 10:10:22 PM

someone find the essay i wrote saying this exact thing

3/9/2006 10:14:02 PM

^Did you take a position? What was it?

[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 10:15 PM. Reason : ssss]

3/9/2006 10:15:17 PM

Quote :

"I didn't use those words and using them in quotes kind of belittles the notion that pride and dignity are important to some people."

They are important to some people. So is the concept that all the Jews should be killed. Just because an idea matters to someone doesn't mean we have to give a shit about it.

The second your pride and dignity start letting other people die/get raped/both, they become of so little consequence as to not even warrant discussion.

Quote :

"Yes, it is awesome if a woman is empowered enough to report a rape."

It's not "awesome." It's basically the minimal standard of behavior that is acceptable.

Quote :

"But I do not think a woman is wrong for wanting to put it behind her and move on"

So, when you get right down to it, you do not think a woman is wrong for allowing other women to get raped. OK. I suppose I don't even have to bother arguing against you at this point.

Quote :

"You think it's wrong. I think it's life."

You know what, a lot of things that everybody does at some point in their life are wrong. Everybody lies at some point. I don't see anybody running around claiming that lying is acceptable for that reason. Hell, for a disturbingly large percentage of women, rape is a part of life, and nobody's trying to excuse that. So why don't you quit trying to use, "Well, it happens, so it isn't wrong" as an excuse or as a defence.

Quote :

"Now please stop blaming rapes on the women who aren't reporting them. Blame the rapers, not the victims."

A nice try that's easily recongizable as bullshit.

Blame is not something that, by necessity, can only be held by one individual or one offender.

Sure, women who allow sexual predators to go free are not as bad as the predators themselves, but that doesn't make them good, OK, or even fundamentally acceptable. I feel profoundly sorry for their situation. I really do. But I can only manage to feel so sorry for someone that is so concerned with their own situation that they will not move to save the lives of others at no tangible cost to themselves.

3/10/2006 1:38:49 AM

Quote :

"But I can only manage to feel so sorry for someone that is so concerned with their own situation that they will not move to save the lives of others at no tangible cost to themselves."

This is one part that I disagree with. Furthermore, you seem to be ignoring the fact that reporting a rape doesn't always mean a conviction or even an arrest.

3/10/2006 1:55:25 AM

Let's hear about the tangible costs, then. If they exist, we'll work them out.

Quote :

"you seem to be ignoring the fact that reporting a rape doesn't always mean a conviction or even an arrest."

Of course it doesn't. But any time a woman refuses to come forward, she's throwing one more wrench in the process, helping to keep these monsters free. Maybe if she reported nothing would happen. At the same time, if she didn't report, it's that much more possible that nothing will happen.

A lack of guarantee for success is not an excuse for inaction.

3/10/2006 2:17:44 AM

I mean, seriously the costs can be so great and the reward isn't even likely.

Motivation = (desire for a certain outcome)*(perceived chance of the outcome)

If you perceive the chances of busting the dude are slim, you're not gonna be super motivated to report it.

But anyway, tangible costs? Missed work (sometimes lots of it, enough a person could potentially lose their job over it). Money for extra therapy that can occur after you have lost your case. And not just missed work, but time in general.

And for real though, the "tangible" costs don't even begin to cover the real costs.

I have admitted that I typically think it's a good thing for a woman to report a rape because down the road, she may look back and feel like she didn't stick up for herself. But all this stuff about owing it to society to report it is bullshit, in my opinion.

[Edited on March 10, 2006 at 2:56 AM. Reason : sss]

3/10/2006 2:28:19 AM

someone's been watching law and order: sport utility vehicle

3/10/2006 8:29:34 AM

Quote :

"Should a woman's "right" to not be embarrassed to tell/prove to police that she's been raped outweigh the massive benefit to society that might come from catching the rapist? Any woman who refuses to turn in or contribute to the investigation of a rapist when she has the power to do so is, in some fashion, reprehensible. She could work to save other people from suffering her fate, but in order to preserve her "pride" and "dignity," she maintains silence and condems others. That's wrong. That's all it is. If offering the abortion option to people who come forward about rape serves as a carrot to get them to turn in their attackers, then I say we use it so we can punish the scum. "

Yesterday I felt the same exact way. When you get raped, report it, get the guy outta the public. But after I thought about it more, this seems to just apply to the women that are raped by random men.

What about all of the women that are raped by a father, or brother, or uncle, or cousin? Reporting that would most likely tear a whole family apart. Possibly destroy many lives. Some people cannot physically deal with that much emotional trauma.

3/10/2006 8:44:48 AM

^ yes, so its just so much better to leave that monster in public where he can hurt more people, or maybe even hurt you again. makes sense to me...

Quote :

"But anyway, tangible costs? Missed work (sometimes lots of it, enough a person could potentially lose their job over it)."

Please forgive me, but I seriously doubt ANYONE has been fired for being in court. I'm fairly certain there are these things called "laws" that prohibit that.

Quote :

"And for real though, the "tangible" costs don't even begin to cover the real costs."

i just love how you rationalize leaving a predator on the streets so that he can fuck up MORE WOMEN.

3/10/2006 10:32:58 AM

I know I've heard of some stories where one woman came out and reported it which lead to the rapest getting caught. After he is caught there are 10+ women that come out of the woodwork to say that was the guy who raped him but they had never said anything about it untill he was caught.

3/10/2006 10:35:54 AM

I almost want to go so far as to say those women should be arrested for keeping that monster on the street.

3/10/2006 10:43:42 AM

Quote :

"^ yes, so its just so much better to leave that monster in public where he can hurt more people, or maybe even hurt you again. makes sense to me..."

I wasn't saying that at all. I agree that it should most likely be reported. I was just saying that it isn't as clear cut and simple as you make it sound. And you speak as if all rapists are serial rapists. Some are one and done, some just do it to one person and don't pose a threat to the rest of society. But that isn't saying that they are any less of a "monster."

[Edited on March 10, 2006 at 10:51 AM. Reason : ]

3/10/2006 10:48:20 AM

Quote :

"Missed work (sometimes lots of it, enough a person could potentially lose their job over it)."

I'm not feeling this one. Isn't it the case that somebody can't be fired for appearing in court, things like that?

Quote :

"Money for extra therapy that can occur after you have lost your case."

This strikes me as really stretching matters.

Besides, at the end of the day, I'm not sure what I think of someone who wouldn't pay with some time and money to get a rapist locked up.

Quote :

"Reporting that would most likely tear a whole family apart."

Well, you know, that sucks. It really does. But it doesn't suck quite as much as having a guy raping his family members. If that isn't tearing the family apart to begin with, they have no business being together.

3/10/2006 11:10:47 AM

Quote :

"Please forgive me, but I seriously doubt ANYONE has been fired for being in court. I'm fairly certain there are these things called "laws" that prohibit that."

You can get fired for anything in this country. Don't be so naive. Furthermore, PostPadder, please stop attempting to demonize me along with rapers.

And, hondaguy is seeing what I'm talking about. In the case of a serial rapists, I imagine that having all the rapes reported helps establish patterns and increase chances of arrest (yet even then I could not call a woman WRONG for not reporting the incident).

Quote :

"Well, you know, that sucks. It really does. But it doesn't suck quite as much as having a guy raping his family members. If that isn't tearing the family apart to begin with, they have no business being together."

We totally disagree on family matters too then. Since they were able to endure and overcome a family tragedy, "they have no business being together"?

I'm not sure I'm ever going to change my mind--particularly any time soon. I do get it though. If everyone reported rapes, then then the chances of catching the perps would increase (dramatically?). So, yeah, if women are not reporting rapes because they perceive the chances of arrest/conviction are low, the dynamic that leads to that perception would change if ALL women started reporting them. I get it.

Quote :

"Besides, at the end of the day, I'm not sure what I think of someone who wouldn't pay with some time and money to get a rapist locked up."

This theme keeps coming up. You seem to really believe that these women are selfish. I just can't get on board with that. Furthermore, I suspect that there are ways other than aggressive prosecution to decrease the instance of rape in society.

3/10/2006 11:48:06 AM

Quote :

"Since they were able to endure and overcome a family tragedy, "they have no business being together"?"

Well, since in this case "enduring and overcoming" can only equal "sweeping the rape issue under the rug and ignoring it," yes.

Quote :

"You seem to really believe that these women are selfish."

All people are selfish, and refusing to act in such a way that may help others because it would be unpleasant for you is practically the definition of "selfish."

Yeah, I just called rape victims "selfish." It isn't as though their being victims of such a traumatic event makes them saints or puts them above all suspicion. I'm not going to recommend the persecution of women who don't come forward, but I'm not going to give them a smiley sticker and a lollipop and tell them, "You've handled this so well," either.

Quote :

"Furthermore, I suspect that there are ways other than aggressive prosecution to decrease the instance of rape in society."

OF COURSE THERE ARE. Taking one action in this case fortunately does not preclude taking other actions as well.

[Edited on March 10, 2006 at 11:56 AM. Reason : ]

3/10/2006 11:55:34 AM

I totally wanna do GrumpyGOP. Just thought I'd own up to that.

3/10/2006 12:17:14 PM

but what if you got preggers?

you obviously have different opinions on how to handle the situation

3/10/2006 12:36:04 PM

Quote :

"You can get fired for anything in this country. Don't be so naive."

yes, but if you got fired for being IN COURT, you would then be a very wealthy person.

Quote :

"Furthermore, PostPadder, please stop attempting to demonize me along with rapers."

well hey, stop sympathizing with those who make it easy for rapers to do what they do.

3/10/2006 7:38:31 PM