3

indeed

3/20/2006 11:44:27 PM

Yeah V was reckless and brought us down, with the help of a N&O that had an agenda and an author of a book that had one as well. No matter the motives involved, yes that caused the collapse. However, Sendek has not helped State recover fully from the collapse. He has brought us to a nice starting point to cross back over into a program that wins titles, etc., but that is as far as he can go. Ten years and he still cannot break the threshold, when will people start to realize that he never will.

3/20/2006 11:45:02 PM

that shit happened when you were what? 3 years old?

[Edited on March 20, 2006 at 11:46 PM. Reason : ,]

3/20/2006 11:45:39 PM

^^STFU already.

Seriously dude. Do you even remember when we were happy to win the ACC play in game???

[Edited on March 20, 2006 at 11:46 PM. Reason : ^^]

3/20/2006 11:45:41 PM

I guess being a freshman means I can't know anything about sports or NC State athletic history, or that I have been following Wolfpack sports my whole life...right.

3/20/2006 11:46:27 PM

No, I can't remember it. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, that doesn't mean that I can't read the damn banners hanging in the RBC Center that show our last ACC Title was in 1987 and last NC in 1983. It doesn't mean that I can't see that Herb has the worst winning percentage against Duke and UNC of any coach in NC State history.

3/20/2006 11:47:38 PM

Quote :

"NC State Basketball Tradition: Case built it Valvano filled it Sendek killed it"

If you know sooo much about our basketball program you would not put that in your profile.

P.S. before you even start, my grandparents and parents are WPC members and I have been going to every game since I was 5.

3/20/2006 11:48:06 PM

next thing you know, he's going to mock Herb's sayings....


wait for it.....

3/20/2006 11:48:47 PM

I'm not a child, I'm not going to mock Herb. He is a good guy, he is a respectable person, he has led a clean, so-so program. He isn't the guy to take State to the next level, that is my only problem with him.

3/20/2006 11:49:33 PM

I CAN SEE THE FUTURE!!!

3/20/2006 11:51:08 PM

so he "killed" the history of our basketball tradition?

3/20/2006 11:51:08 PM

He is killing it as we speak, which is evident by the fact that so many on this board think that his accomplishments (or lack of them) show a record of success. The fact that so many are willing to settle for mediocrity proves that he is killing the tradition.

3/20/2006 11:53:29 PM

its still funny that some recent grads who give like $2000 a year think their money is worth a fuck compared to the big dog donors...oh man, naivety is hilarious

3/21/2006 12:30:11 PM

Quote :

"NC State Basketball Tradition: Case built it Sloan perfected it Valvano corrupted it Sendek cleaned it up"

3/21/2006 12:31:21 PM

Below are the records, through only their first 10 years, for all ACC basketball coaches who held their positions for at least 10 seasons since the creation of the league in 1953. They are listed in order of their winning percentage in regular-season conference games.

Vic Bubas, Duke, 1960-69: 106-32 record (.768) in ACC regular-season games, 213-67 overall (.761), 22-6 ACC Tournament (.786), 11-4 NCAA Tournament (.733), 4 ACC titles, 4 first-place finishes, 4 NCAA bids, 4 Sweet 16s, 3 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles.

Dean Smith, North Carolina, 1962-71: 97-43 record (.693) in ACC regular-season games, 191-77 overall (.713), 14-7 ACC Tournament (.667), 7-5 NCAA Tournament (.583), 3 ACC titles, 4 first-place finishes, 3 NCAA bids, 3 Sweet 16s, 3 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles.

Everett Case, N.C. State, 1954-63: 85-49 record (.634) in ACC regular-season games, 183-77 overall (.704), 15-6 ACC Tournament (.714), 2-2 NCAA Tournament (.500), 4 ACC titles, 3 first-place finishes, 2 NCAA bids, 2 Sweet 16s, 0 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles.

Norm Sloan, N.C. State, 1967-76: 78-52 record (.600) in ACC regular-season games, 190-86 overall (.688), 12-7 ACC Tournament (.632), 4-1 NCAA Tournament (.800), 3 ACC titles, 2 first-place finishes, 2 NCAA bids, 1 Sweet 16, 1 Final Four, 1 NCAA title.

Terry Holland, Virginia, 1975-84: 73-57 record (.562) in ACC regular-season games, 214-95 overall (.693), 10-9 ACC Tournament (.526), 11-5 NCAA Tournament (.688), 1 ACC title, 3 first-place finishes, 5 NCAA bids, 3 Sweet 16s, 2 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles.

Dave Odom,, Wake Forest, 1990-99: 86-70 record (.551) in ACC regular-season games, 199-97 overall (.672), 8-8 ACC Tournament (.500), 10-7 NCAA Tournament (.588), 2 ACC titles, 1 first-place finish, 7 NCAA bids, 3 Sweet 16s, 0 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles.

Mike Krzyzewski, Duke, 1981-90: 76-64 record (.543) in ACC regular-season games, 231-101 overall (.696), 12-8 ACC Tournament (.600), 21-7 NCAA Tournament (.750), 2 ACC titles, 1 first-place finish, 7 NCAA bids, 5 Sweet 16s, 4 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles.

Lefty Driesell, Maryland, 1970-79: 67-57 record (.540) in ACC regular-season games, 189-85 overall (.690), 9-10 ACC Tournament (.474), 3-2 NCAA Tournament (.600), 0 ACC titles, 1 first-place finish, 2 NCAA bids, 1 Sweet 16, 0 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles.

Bud Millikan, Maryland, 1954-63: 71-64 record (.526) in ACC regular-season games, 147-104 overall (.586), 6-9 ACC Tournament (.400), 2-1 NCAA Tournament (.667), 1 ACC title, 0 first-place finishes, 1 NCAA bid, 1 Sweet 16, 0 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles.

Jim Valvano, N.C. State, 1981-90: 71-69 record (.507) in ACC regular-season games, 209-114 overall (.647), 9-8 ACC Tournament (.529), 14-6 NCAA Tournament (.700), 2 ACC titles, 2 first-place finishes, 7 NCAA bids, 4 Sweet 16s, 1 Final Four, 1 NCAA title.

Bobby Cremins, Georgia Tech, 1982-91: 70-70 record (.500) in ACC regular-season games, 198-112 overall (.639), 9-8 ACC Tournament (.529), 11-7 NCAA Tournament (.611), 2 ACC titles, 1 first-place finish, 7 NCAA bids, 3 Sweet 16s, 1 Final Four, 0 NCAA titles.

Gary Williams, Maryland, 1990-99: 78-78 record (.500) in ACC regular-season games, 192-118 overall (.619), 7-9 ACC Tournament (.438), 8-6 NCAA Tournament (.571), 0 ACC titles, 1 first-place finish, 6 NCAA bids, 4 Sweet 16s, 0 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles.

Herb Sendek, N.C. State, 1997-2006: 72-88 record (.450) in ACC regular-season games, 191-132 overall (.591), 13-10 ACC Tournament (.565), 5-5 NCAA Tournament (.500), 0 ACC titles, 0 first-place finishes, 5 NCAA bids, 1 Sweet 16, 0 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles.

Carl Tacy, Wake Forest, 1973-82: 52-74 record (.413) in ACC regular-season games, 164-114 overall (.590), 5-10 ACC Tournament (.333), 3-3 NCAA Tournament (.500), 0 ACC titles, 0 first-place finishes, 3 NCAA bids, 1 Sweet 16, 0 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles.

Cliff Ellis, Clemson, 1985-94: 56-90 record (.384) in ACC regular-season games, 177-128 overall (.580), 3-10 ACC Tournament (.231), 3-3 NCAA Tournament (.500), 0 ACC titles, 1 first-place finish, 3 NCAA bids, 2 Sweet 16s, 0 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles.

Bill Gibson, Virginia, 1964-73: 46-90 record (.338) in ACC regular-season games, 109-142 overall (.434), 4-10 ACC Tournament (.286), 0-0 NCAA Tournament (.000), 0 ACC titles, 0 first-place finishes, 0 NCAA bids, 0 Sweet 16s, 0 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles.

3/21/2006 3:11:14 PM

Quote :

"Dean Smith, North Carolina, 1962-71: 97-43 record (.693) in ACC regular-season games, 191-77 overall (.713), 14-7 ACC Tournament (.667), 7-5 NCAA Tournament (.583), 3 ACC titles, 4 first-place finishes, 3 NCAA bids, 3 Sweet 16s, 3 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles. Mike Krzyzewski, Duke, 1981-90: 76-64 record (.543) in ACC regular-season games, 231-101 overall (.696), 12-8 ACC Tournament (.600), 21-7 NCAA Tournament (.750), 2 ACC titles, 1 first-place finish, 7 NCAA bids, 5 Sweet 16s, 4 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles. "

FIRE DEAN! FIRE K!

3/21/2006 3:15:35 PM

Quote :

""Dean Smith, North Carolina, 1962-71: 97-43 record (.693) in ACC regular-season games, 191-77 overall (.713), 14-7 ACC Tournament (.667), 7-5 NCAA Tournament (.583), 3 ACC titles, 4 first-place finishes, 3 NCAA bids, 3 Sweet 16s, 3 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles. Mike Krzyzewski, Duke, 1981-90: 76-64 record (.543) in ACC regular-season games, 231-101 overall (.696), 12-8 ACC Tournament (.600), 21-7 NCAA Tournament (.750), 2 ACC titles, 1 first-place finish, 7 NCAA bids, 5 Sweet 16s, 4 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles."

3/21/2006 3:17:25 PM

Quote :

"statecarolinafan24"

3/21/2006 3:18:49 PM

^^^^ok good, now go dig up the 5 years that led up to each of those coaches' first years and we'll talk.

[Edited on March 21, 2006 at 3:22 PM. Reason : ]

3/21/2006 3:22:28 PM

Quote :

"Dave Odom,, Wake Forest, 1990-99: 86-70 record (.551) in ACC regular-season games, 199-97 overall (.672), 8-8 ACC Tournament (.500), 10-7 NCAA Tournament (.588), 2 ACC titles, 1 first-place finish, 7 NCAA bids, 3 Sweet 16s, 0 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles. Mike Krzyzewski, Duke, 1981-90: 76-64 record (.543) in ACC regular-season games, 231-101 overall (.696), 12-8 ACC Tournament (.600), 21-7 NCAA Tournament (.750), 2 ACC titles, 1 first-place finish, 7 NCAA bids, 5 Sweet 16s, 4 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles. "

YEP JUST LIKE EVERYBODY KNOWS, DAVE ODOM IS A BETTER COACH THAN MIKE KRZYZEWSKI

3/21/2006 3:24:11 PM

honestly, guys, I can understand taking the position of not wanting to fire Herb, but can you honestly sit there and say he did a good job this year? How can you look at a 2nd round bounce from the NCAA as a positive thing? Considering we were nationally ranked almost the entire year and then absolutely COLLAPSED. Who do you blame for that? It is the coach's job to get the team up for games, to make them feel like they CAN win! Apparently Herb doesn't do that very well.

3/21/2006 3:36:01 PM

yeah its a team sport which means the players take no blame at all for losses

and 22 wins including an ncaa tourney win is not a bad season unless you are living in fantasy land where you think we should win lots of titles since jimmy v pulled one out of his ass

3/21/2006 3:37:49 PM

Quote :

"statecarolinafan24""

yes, bolding simple facts makes me a unc fan. fuck you.

I was just showing how your argument is lacking since herb has few of the things that those coaches had in those periods.

3/21/2006 3:44:17 PM

yeah, one of the things herb doesnt have that dean and k had was shitty competition

3/21/2006 3:45:14 PM

dude, everything you say is so over the top. I dont think anyone on here is saying that State should win the national title right now. (I'm certainly not anyway) However, this season, regardless of how you want to spin it, was a disappointment. We took a step backward. Prior to that end of season skid, we were likely a 3 seed in the tourney and we slipped to a 10! and then got our asses handed to us by Texas. And again, few of those 22 wins were against really top notch talent (BC and GW expcepted). No wins against Duke, no wins against UNC, no wins in the ACC tourney (and a 4th place finish in the league). And all of this with a team of seniors.

and if it IS a team game and we should be looking at the team as well as Herb then lets realize that these guys learned everything they know from Herb.

Shitty competition??? Are you high?? Every analyst in the country has said that this was a down year in the ACC. Once you got past FSU, there was a serious drop off in talent. The ACC was much stronger as a league during the 80's and 90's.

[Edited on March 21, 2006 at 3:51 PM. Reason : .]

3/21/2006 3:48:56 PM

Quote :

"yeah, one of the things herb doesnt have that dean and k had was shitty competition"

hmm, like wake?

I'm glad herb's teams play like they are supposed to against shitty competition.

wait...

[Edited on March 21, 2006 at 3:50 PM. Reason : sdf]

3/21/2006 3:49:28 PM

^^a disappointment? if we had beaten texas and then lost to west virginia would it cease to be a disappointment? if we had gone 1-1 with UNC and gone out to texas in the 2nd round would it cease to have been a disappointing season? if we had gone 10-22 but 2 of those 10 wins were over carolina would the season still be a disappointment? you guys just expect too much, we are not the same powerhouse we were 30 years ago because the college game is totally different...maybe if you didnt expect more than you should you wouldnt be so disappointed at a season that 99% of other schools' fans would appreciate

^oh look you are talking about the wake losses again, i've never heard anyone even mention those games as their whole argument for this 30+ game season being a success or failure

3/21/2006 3:51:11 PM

Quote :

"a disappointment? if we had beaten texas and then lost to west virginia would it cease to be a disappointment? if we had gone 1-1 with UNC and gone out to texas in the 2nd round would it cease to have been a disappointing season? if we had gone 10-22 but 2 of those 10 wins were over carolina would the season still be a disappointment? you guys just expect too much, we are not the same powerhouse we were 30 years ago because the college game is totally different...maybe if you didnt expect more than you should you wouldnt be so disappointed at a season that 99% of other schools' fans would appreciate"

Honestly, you argue like a child! It's amazing.

Anyway, getting to the S16 and winning a game against UNC would have certainly helped. But we didn't do those things did we.

3/21/2006 3:57:57 PM

Quote :

"^oh look you are talking about the wake losses again, i've never heard anyone even mention those games as their whole argument for this 30+ game season being a success or failure"

what the fuck are you even talking about, I wasn't even arguing about that in that post but I will now. stop getting people confused with other people, you did that yesterday too.

losing to unc twice(once at home by 30), finishing with a 4 game losing streak,(with 3 seniors and good soph talent) slipping to a 10 seed, and losing in the first round of the acc tourney also had something to do with why the season was a disappointment.

you said it yourself, we were ~21-5 at one point and could have easily finished with around 25 wins. when you have something within your grasp and you let it slip away, that is pretty much the definition of disappointment.

[Edited on March 21, 2006 at 4:02 PM. Reason : 30+ game season?]

3/21/2006 3:59:09 PM

^^

Quote :

"getting to the S16 and winning a game against UNC would have certainly helped"

so if we had done those things it would STILL be a disappointing season? I'm trying to inquire about what criteria would define a "successful" season because I think too many State fans have unrealistic expectations

^you werent arguing about the wake losses in that post?

Quote :

"hmm, like wake? I'm glad herb's teams play like they are supposed to against shitty competition. wait..."

yeah actually you were

3/21/2006 4:02:47 PM

I MENTIONED THE WAKE LOSSES BUT I WAS NOT ARGUING ABOUT THIS SEASON BEING A SUCCESS OR FAILURE YOU ILLITERATE FUCKHEAD.

Quote :

"^oh look you are talking about the wake losses again, i've never heard anyone even mention those games as their whole argument for this 30+ game season being a success or failure""

[Edited on March 21, 2006 at 4:05 PM. Reason : gfd]

3/21/2006 4:04:21 PM

and yeah this is great too

Quote :

"losing to unc twice(once at home by 30), finishing with a 4 game losing streak,(with 3 seniors and good soph talent) slipping to a 10 seed, and losing in the first round of the acc tourney"

haha i like how you imply that the 2nd unc loss, the 1st round acc tourney loss, and the 4 game losing streak were all completely separate things and none of the games overlapped...rofl whatever you have to say to make your "point" whatever that may be

let's see what few select things statefan chooses to spin to his supposed point in the next post, this should be fun

3/21/2006 4:07:14 PM

Quote :

"haha i like how you also act like the 2nd unc loss, the 1st round acc tourney loss, and the 4 game losing streak were all completely separate things and none of the games overlapped...rofl whatever you have to say to make your "point" whatever that may be"

so what? you asked what classified this season as disappointing, and it is mostly that.

OMG THEY WERE ALL PART OF THE SAME LOSING STREAK. YOU WIN.

[no]

Quote :

"you said it yourself, we were ~21-5 at one point and could have easily finished with around 25 wins. when you have something within your grasp and you let it slip away, that is pretty much the definition of disappointment."

haha I like how you ignore that part of the post. I guess you don't find basically having something and letting it slip disappointing?

[Edited on March 21, 2006 at 4:09 PM. Reason : uh oh, treetwista's in a corner, here comes the old "OMG NO NATIONAL 'SHIPS FIRE HERB" rant post.]

3/21/2006 4:07:43 PM

how much did it slip away? we still made the tourney...we lost, what, a 3 seed? who's to say a 14 seed wouldnt have taken us out? shit you act like i think losing is a good thing...i dont...i'd love to have gone from 21-5 to 25-5 and won a few acc tourney games...that doesnt mean an ncaa tourney win is guaranteed...how'd that #3 seed work out for iowa? how far did UNC go with their #3 seed? how'd Syracuse's 4 game win streak do them compared to our 4 game losing streak? we lost 4 late games to 3 good teams...and you're retarded if you think wake isnt a good team just because they finished 12th...you just look for the negatives and ignore the rest because apparently 5 straight tourney appearances (State is 2nd in consecutive appearances only to DUKE) is mediocre and we should be making final fours left and right

3/21/2006 4:11:07 PM

Quote :

"i'd love to have gone from 21-5 to 25-5 and won a few acc tourney games..."

YES

and for some of us, the series of events that led up to that not happening was disappointing which you can't seem to comprehend.

I didn't say we should be making final fours left and right, but you keep acting like us anti-herb people want national championships or final fours everywhere when really no one has said that.

but the best we have done in ten years with herb as coach is sweet sixteen and that is due in large part to julius hodge and a no-call on the play he made. if the ref sees jordan collins stick his foot out and trip the husky defender, then that makes ten years with no sweet 16s.

I'm not saying we should be final 4 every year, but an elite 8 ONCE IN A WHILE would be nice.

[Edited on March 21, 2006 at 4:15 PM. Reason : fdsh]

3/21/2006 4:12:17 PM

haha i like how you ignore the rest of the post

statehypocritefan24

Quote :

"the series of events that led up to that not happening was disappointing which you can't seem to comprehend. "

just because the last 4 games were disappointing, you equivocate that with the whole season being disappointing...and the sad thing is, you have no idea what you're doing...you cant seem to comprehend that those there were still 22 games that were NOT disappointing...last time i checked the status of a season being successful or a failure is not strictly determined by the last 3 regular season games and the first conference tourney game when you ALREADY have an ncaa berth locked up

3/21/2006 4:12:49 PM

I hadn't even read the whole post yet. when I posted that.

but IMO the season going from easily 25-5 to 21-9 and the events that made it that way make for a disappointing season.

the colts were amazing all year and they fucked up at the end. that makes the whole season pretty fucking disappointing for colts fan.

not a perfect analogy, I know. but tis the 1st thing that comes 2 mind

[Edited on March 21, 2006 at 4:18 PM. Reason : b]

3/21/2006 4:16:29 PM

well maybe you should read my whole post and try and get my whole jist of what i'm saying and not just selectively take a line that suits your purpose...if all my posts were one liners that would work fine but I put more into them than that

3/21/2006 4:17:42 PM

That's interesting, TreeTwista telling people to read a whole post.

3/21/2006 4:19:21 PM

Quote :

"but IMO the season going from easily 25-5 to 21-9 and the events that made it that way make for a disappointing season."

i hear what you're saying but at the same time, the season wasnt "easily 25-5"...it was 21-5...maybe we couldve expected 23-7...i dont think we could've "easily" beaten both UNC and BC and Wake both times...2-2 would obviously be better than 0-4

now if those 4 losses knocked us out of the NCAA tournament, it would DEFINITELY be a horribly disappointing season...but they didnt...they lowered our seed but so what...bradley and george mason did alright and tennessee's 2 seed was for shit....we were still 1 of 64 teams in the tournament on the opening thursday...once the playoffs start, every team is 0-0 and the team that goes 6-0 wins it all...we were still in the tournament and started off 1-0...we still had a chance to rattle off 5 wins...and texas is a great team, theres no shame in losing to them...and it was basically a home game for texas...herb and his players have gotten the team into the tournament for 5 straight years, giving us a CHANCE to advance 5 straight years...i just cant consider the entire season dissapointing based on a few february losses to hot UNC and BC teams and a Wake team fighting for their postseason chances

3/21/2006 4:35:05 PM

^actually, there was great shame in losing to texas the way we did. did you even watch the game?

Quote :

"have a plan work in the first half, and then abandon that plan for the second have and start sucking. "

even herb supporters cannot justify herb's coaching in the second half.

3/21/2006 4:47:23 PM

yes of course i watched the game

how is there shame in losing to a better texas team in dallas?

because their players are much better than ours?

because that fucking shooting guard who had zero points against Penn could not miss from behind the arc?

because they have 2 or 3 cedric simmons' and they're more experienced than our only legit low post player?

and if you're saying herb had something working in the 1st half and abandoned it in the 2nd half...i'm gonna have to ask if YOU watched the game...State looked good the last 5 minutes of the 1st half and thats about it...we started off the game down 20-5...texas wasnt missing anything...we made a run due to our players actually hustling for a change

3/21/2006 4:49:13 PM

yeah herb coached us into only making 2 field goals in the first what, 15 minutes of the half?

herb missed those shots.

3/21/2006 4:49:25 PM

Quote :

"And all of this with a team of seniors."

Haha did he really say that????

We are gonna suck without Evtimov shooting from halfcourt.

3/21/2006 4:55:37 PM

so when we lose it's the players faults and when we win, it's because of the coaches?

3/21/2006 4:56:13 PM

Lets look at the facts.... State went 22-9 this season.

Of those 22 wins:
-12 were against teams that finished at or below .500
-we split with 2 of the teams that were at or below .500 (2 losses to Wake and a loss to GT)
-For the year we played 9 games against Top 25 teams, we lost 6 of them. (by an average of almost 13pts)
-We realistically had 4 quality wins: George Washington, BC, FSU, and California (and Cal is a stretch!)
-Against the Big 4 (which is a local way of evaluating the team) we were 1-6
-With the exception of the 4 quality wins, no other team we won against won 20 games this year.

And again, we didn't win a game in the ACC tourney and we got blown out in the 2nd rd of the NCAA tourney. And, yes, we ended the season on a major skid.

Honestly, there is nothing about this season that WASN'T a disappointment. We had a couple of hight points with semi-big wins and it was nice to be ranked most of the year. But all of that got us nowhere. I guess I should be thankful the bus didn't crash.

3/21/2006 4:56:20 PM

Exactly how many of Duke's almost 30 wins came against teams with a winning record???

NC State is the only team in the country that schedules easy wins!

3/21/2006 5:00:48 PM

Lets look at the facts.... State went 22-9 this season.

Of those 22 wins:
-10 were against teams that finished above .500
-We beat 3 top 25 teams, 2 by over 20 points
-We realistically had 7 quality wins: George Washington, BC, FSU, FSU, Maryland, Alabama, and California (and beating a higher seed in the NCAA tourney and saying calling it a quality win is only a stretch is something a retard would say!)
-Against the Big 4 (which is a local way of evaluating the team) we were 1-6


oh look here's my spin on those stats

3/21/2006 5:00:53 PM

Miami could almost be a quality win.

At least the one down there could be.

UNC went 1-1 against Miami.

[Edited on March 21, 2006 at 5:02 PM. Reason : 1-1]

3/21/2006 5:02:02 PM

i hope herb quits and state is forced to hire some shitty no-name coach

i will laugh my fucking ass off

3/21/2006 7:50:43 PM