it's not like immigrants who don't speak english are really hurting us. they're only hurting their own chances of getting better jobs. i would assume that most immigrants would want to learn english if they are trying to make money.

4/17/2006 2:11:31 PM

whats all this bullshit about minimum wage, most unauthorized immigrants earn a bit more than that.

http://pewhispanic.org/factsheets/factsheet.php?FactsheetID=16

the average weekly pay for unauthorized immigrants who arrived between 2000 and 2005 was $480 per week.

4/17/2006 2:12:35 PM

Clear5 just got added to my TWW Cool People list.

I'm just surprised it took 3 pages to get pointed out

4/17/2006 2:42:10 PM

the ones i work with work 9 hour days, 6 days a week.

shit's rough. i do the same job, but i work like 4 days a week, tops. and this is just kitchen staff shit. think about those guys in the fields.

the only real conflict i have is when it comes to education and taxes. if youre going to use a public service, you should help build and maintain it, imo. how do we get them to pay taxes?

4/17/2006 2:48:46 PM

^ Give them social security numbers so their employer can take it out on their W2?

[Edited on April 17, 2006 at 2:54 PM. Reason : aka legalize them]

4/17/2006 2:53:46 PM

that would be the logical thing, but if theyre illegal, youre going to have a harder time doing that, i guess.

i dont know, im not up on immigration laws.

4/17/2006 2:57:16 PM

Quote :

"whats all this bullshit about minimum wage, most unauthorized immigrants earn a bit more than that."

yeah, i kinda figured that, which is why i used a [still conservative guess of] $5/hour instead of that $3/hour crap people were talking about.

4/17/2006 3:11:29 PM

Quote :

"^So how would you define an "American" then? What is this "American" that you want immigrants have to assimilate in to? Is it just speaking English, or what?"

Its mostly about "us" making concessions and changing things to make it easier for "them". It should be the other way around, but for some reason its not...I call it lack of common sense.

4/17/2006 8:12:24 PM

how does learning spanish hurt you in anyway?

4/17/2006 8:15:28 PM

Not to sound too alarmist, but we do need to control our borders. You don't have much of a country without responsible immigration control. We should welcome immigrants who want to join our country, want to assimilate and have something to offer. We need to put fair and responsible limits on immigration.

We need to let in a limited amount of immigrants yearly. Our economy needs them. But a new immigrant's first act in our country should not be breaking the law by sneaking across our border.

Witht the illegals who are already here, we are going to have to come up with some type of compromise. If they want to stay, they join our team, learn our language, not become leeches on society. Secondly, we have to get control of our border again, stop the unregulated influx.

I'm also not getting a warm and fuzzy feeling when I read cooments like these...

Augustin Cebada, Brown Berets: "Go back to Boston! Go back to Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old white people. It is your duty to die. ….. Through love of having children, we are going to take over."

Richard Alatorre, Los Angeles City Council
"They’re afraid we’re going to take over the governmental institutions and other institutions. They’re right. We will take them over. …. We are here to stay."

Excelsior- The national newspaper of Mexico
"The American Southwest seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico without firing a single shot."

Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas.
----- "We have an aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion is in our population. ….. I love it. They are shitting in their pants with fear. I love it."

Art Torres, Chairman of the California Democratic Party
"Remember 187 (proposition to deny taxpayer funds for services to non citizens) was the last gasp of white America in California."

Gloria Molina, Los Angeles County Supervisor
"We are politicizing every single one of these new citizens that are becoming citizens of this country….I gotta tell you that a lot of people are saying, "I’m going to go out there and vote because I want to pay them back."

Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations and California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under Jerry Brown, also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Bill Clinton
"California is going to be a Hispanic state. Anyone who doesn’t like it should leave."

Jose Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General
We are practicing "La Reconquista" in California."

Professor Fernando Guerra, Loyola Marymount University:
"We need to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos…."

4/17/2006 8:20:21 PM

Quote :

"You don't have much of a country without responsible immigration control."

We had a quite a bit of country back in the 19th. Keeping the gypsies and the deformed out of the country is about all we need to justify our contry. Rock On

4/17/2006 8:48:05 PM

Quote :

"how does learning spanish hurt you in anyway?"

Look, I'm about as pro-immigration as anyone in this thread, but I'll be damned if I'M the one who needs to learn a language, regardless of whether or not English is legally declared as the official language of the United States.

4/17/2006 9:10:30 PM

The whole language bit is especially retarded. Immigrants benefit by learning basic English, so they do it. There isn't some reward for sticking to Spanish. They gain nothing but complications and the ire of natives.

The store I work at has a fair amount of immigrant traffic. I speak proficient Spanish and I never get to use it -- they speak English, because it's hard to live in a fucking English-speaking country without knowing at least some.

Immigrants WILL learn the language. Now, unless you want to say that they should already know it when they get here (which would be ridiculous for a slew of other reasons), that means you can shut up.

To EarthDogg --

I can find an equal number of disturbing quotes from the same kinds of "respected" positions supporting any ludicrous cause in America today. Hell, steve9194 even manages to do that pretty regularly. You've got a handful of dingbats there. If you pay attention to every dingbat on the planet you'll go crazy fast.

Quote :

"If they want to stay, they join our team, learn our language, not become leeches on society."

This is a reasonable enough demand, especially since it's so largely already being met.

Immigrants don't flock up here for welfare, they flock up here for jobs and stability. In the other things (language, "team," etc) the same could have been (and probably was) said about Italians once, and they seem to have turned out alright despite an initial and understandable tendency to congregate and preserve their culture.

Quote :

"Its mostly about "us" making concessions and changing things to make it easier for "them"."

I know it's easy to be completely and utterly self-centered, but try to look at things from the other end for a second.

"They" have to put themselves through hell, learn at least part of a new language, work shitty jobs for low pay, face discrimination, police harrassment, etc.

"We," meaning a country with no national language, have to translate some legal documents to accomodate a large portion of the population that, even if it does speak excellent English, does not speak it as a first language. I tell you what, right now I can get by just fine in complicated conversation in any Spanish-speaking country. I did so for a good two months recently. I'm a Spanish major. But, if I had my druthers, I'd want any legal document I signed to be in English, just to be sure.

Other than that, where are these big concessions?

4/17/2006 11:20:53 PM

I'll support throwing out all the illegal immigrants who are leeches on society...

...as long as we can throw out all the Americans who are leeches on society too  

4/17/2006 11:25:32 PM

^Bingo.

4/17/2006 11:25:55 PM

Quote :

"throw out all the Americans who are leeches on society too "

OK.. TGD for Secretary of Health, Education & Welfare!

Quote :

"You've got a handful of dingbats there"

OK..as long as they really are just mentally ill dingbats, and not leaders and spokes-folks for a budding Mexican nationalist invasion. I'm much more relieved now.

[Edited on April 18, 2006 at 1:22 AM. Reason : p.s. Grumpy for head of the ATF !!]

4/18/2006 1:21:15 AM

i think it is funny when libertarians argue for closed borders.

4/18/2006 1:25:08 AM

Quote :

"Grumpy for head of the ATF"

grumpy with guns? grumpy with guns and the authority of the us government with those guns?

4/18/2006 1:38:30 AM

Quote :

"An Ugly Reality Apr 18, 2006, by Thomas Sowell Thank heaven for the massive marches across the country by those favoring illegal immigrants. These marches revealed the ugly truth behind the fog of pious words and clever political spin from the media and from both Democrats and Republicans in Washington. "Guest workers"? Did any of the strident speakers, with their in-your-face bombast in Spanish, sound like guests? Did they sound like people who wanted to become Americans? Were they even asking for amnesty? They didn't sound like they were asking for anything. They sounded like they were telling. Demanding. Threatening. Somebody must have told them that their Mexican flags that dominated the earlier marches were not making a good impression on television, so they started flying American flags. But such cosmetic changes did not keep the ugly reality from coming through in their hostile speeches. These were not the speeches of people who wanted to join American society but people who wanted their own turf on American soil -- in disregard and defiance of what American citizens want. Europe has already been through this "guest worker" policy that we are being urged to follow. They have learned the hard way what it means to have a growing foreign population in their midst -- a population that insists on remaining foreign and hostile to the culture, values and people around them. Some European countries have learned this lesson at the cost of riots and bloodshed in the streets and lives lost in terrorist attacks. Others have only had to contend with national polarization -- thus far -- but polarization is not a small thing. In this country, however, there are still people who refuse to learn any lesson at all. Some business interests see only an opportunity to get cheap labor. Some intellectuals see only abstract principles about abstract people crossing an abstract border. Some tell us loftily that earlier generations of immigrants who were once thought to be unassimilable turned out over time to become as American as anyone else and patriotic citizens. That might well be true of immigrants from Mexico, both legal and illegal, if the circumstances of today were the same as the circumstances during an earlier era of immigration from Europe. But circumstances are not the same -- and those circumstances are not going to become the same by pretending that they are. The ugly display of grievance-mongering bombast at the illegal immigrant marches is just one of those circumstances that are not the same as in an earlier era. When people came here from Europe, they came here to become Americans. There was no prouder title for them. American generals of German ancestry led the fight against Germany in both World Wars. The Irish "Fighting 69th" earned its fame on the battlefields of the First World War and Japanese American fighting units were among the most highly decorated in World War II. They proved they were Americans. The underlying tragedy of the present situation is that it is doubtful whether the activist loudmouths, who were too contemptuous of this country to even speak its language while demanding its benefits, represent most immigrants from Mexico. Both legal and illegal immigrants have come here primarily to work and make a better life for themselves and their families. But a country requires more than workers. It requires people who are citizens not only in name but in commitment. Americanization did not happen automatically in earlier times and it will not happen automatically today. Immigrants in an earlier era had leaders and organizations actively working to transform them into Americans -- the Catholic Church with the Irish and numerous organizations among the Jews, for example. Today's immigrant activists and the politicians who kowtow to them have just the opposite agenda, to keep foreigners foreign and to make other Americans accept and adjust to that. It will be a national tragedy if they succeed. Just what problem will amnesty solve? Illegal aliens will benefit and politicians will benefit by sweeping the illegality under the rug by making it legal. But how will American citizens benefit? America can lose big time. "

4/18/2006 10:56:08 AM

I think this is one of those occasions where representitive democracy will not work because few politicians are willing to risk coming down like they should. It should come to a direct referendum of the people.

4/18/2006 11:04:56 AM

if we judge every group of people by "their" speakers at a protest march, then we should probably kick everyone out of America.

4/18/2006 11:36:27 AM

Quote :

"Immigrants WILL learn the language. Now, unless you want to say that they should already know it when they get here (which would be ridiculous for a slew of other reasons), that means you can shut up."

Yep.

4/18/2006 4:45:41 PM

Quote :

"I'll support throwing out all the illegal immigrants who are leeches on society... ...as long as we can throw out all the Americans who are leeches on society too"

No need to throw them out, just take away their voting rights to start with. Watch the democrats sqeal... hee hee hee...

4/18/2006 5:30:23 PM

There's some guilt involved in this too. The United States fucked up Central America hardcore. And now that folks are seeing things globally, they're not okay with just letting a big fat chunk of this continent go to hell/shit/waste, but what can we do besides allowing individuals to earn loot in our economy?

Like, seriously, is there anything we can do to improve the economic/political/living conditions in Central and South America? I feel like any attempt would be met with obstinant opposition because the United States isn't/aren't trustworthy for shit.

[Edited on April 18, 2006 at 6:12 PM. Reason : sss]

4/18/2006 6:10:11 PM

Is anyone else confused by EarthDogg lately? Seems like just a week or two ago, he was all about letting folks in. Then he finds out that immigration advocates include a few nutjobs, which of course makes it unlike every other political movement, ever. (I know I've never run into a Libertarian who said ridiculous bullshit and horded guns and scared the hell out of me)

And, EarthDogg, did you notice during the course of that little piece that Mr. Sowell never referred to anything that was actually said during the protests? He only talked about how they "looked" and "sounded." You know what, I'm not even exaggerating when I say that pretty much anything said in German sounds angry to me. Could it be that maybe Mr. Sowell, who I'm sure is the type of jerk-off to swear that he'd never learn Spanish, should at least find a translator so he can learn what he was talking about?

4/18/2006 6:47:27 PM

I'm very surprised that no one has mentioned that a large majority of illegal immigrants send most of what they make back to relatives in Mexico. This large transfer of money out of the US into Mexico is bad for the US economy. I'm not saying its as serious a problem as the trade deficit with China, but its something that is worthy of being addressed.

4/18/2006 8:02:59 PM

Quote :

"This large transfer of money out of the US into Mexico is bad for the US economy."

I just don't know how long it will be until the US runs out of money.

And that large transfer of money out of North Carolina into Florida is bad for the NC economy (all those spring breakers). I just don't know how long it will be until North Carolina runs out of money. [/sarcasm]

Again, and always, sending cash to Mexico is no worse than sending cash to your aunt lolla in Wyoming. It is going to be spent eventually and when it does it will re-enter the economy.

4/18/2006 8:51:55 PM

Aunt Lolla burns the money

4/18/2006 9:46:02 PM

^^wow, you're out of your mind. So is that the same logic you use for China?

4/18/2006 9:53:13 PM

Quote :

"Is anyone else confused by EarthDogg lately?"

I'll be more clear..

I have never been in favor of illegal gate-crashing immigrants. We are a country of laws. A country has to protect its borders. It's George Bush's job to protect that border and he has refused to do it.

I'm not in favor of making illegals felons. But I would sit down hard on employers who knowingly hire them.

I am in favor of fixing immigration law to allow in a limited and controllable number of immigrants in each year. We need to reduce the cost and paperwork and time it takes for quality immigrants to come in.

I would not extend our welfare system to new immigrants for a period of time. We're letting them in to pursue their dreams, not to give them a free ride. I'd bet most immigrants would grab that deal in order to get in and work.

And let's fix the welfare system that attracts deadbeats. Lets fix the staggering over-abundance of labor regulations that make it so damn expensive for employers to hire American workers.

Hope that helps.

4/18/2006 10:37:02 PM

Quote :

" A country has to protect its borders. "

earthdogg gets kicked out of liberterian party. news at 11.

4/18/2006 10:46:22 PM

Quote :

"wow, you're out of your mind. So is that the same logic you use for China?"

Yes, please, expose flaw in argument. Tell me where the wealth goes. Best I can figure, one of two things is happening there:
#1. The chinese sell us goods and burn/mattress/hide the cash. Net effect: China trades us billions of dollars worth of consumer electronics in exchange for miniature portraits of dead founding fathers which cost about 5 cents a piece to print (something the Federal Reserve is quite happy to do).
#2. The chinese sell us goods and then use the cash to buy stuff they want: Treasury Bonds, oil drilling corporations, airplanes, etc.

In neither case is America being harmed. Hell, in the case of #1 America is, in effect, enslaving the Chinese people (They work, we consume).
Money is a kind of like an IOU in the economic world, the only trick is that anyone will fulfill the IOU for you. You do $10 worth of goods/service for me, I'll give you this piece of paper so I, or someone else, will do $10 worth of goods/service for you later. Imagine how awesome it would be if Food Lion began accepting your IOUs but never used them for anything. Yes, the banking system will need to lower interest rates so the Federal Reserve can increase the rate of money creation to compensate for the slight deflationary pressure caused by Food Lion flushing the IOUs, but our people would be better off. Of course, China isn't doing this, because it would be stupid, they are engaging in case #2 by buying US Treasury Bonds, putting the money back in the hands of Americans by giving it to the government.

4/19/2006 12:28:15 AM

Quote :

"earthdogg gets kicked out of liberterian party"

I get a cigarette, but in true Libertarian style...I have to hire my own firing squad.

4/19/2006 12:52:59 AM

Quote :

"No need to throw them out, just take away their voting rights to start with. Watch the democrats sqeal... hee hee hee... "

Making them "legal" doesn't mean making them a citizen. It just means making them a resident alien, which is just like a citizen except they can't vote, and they can get deported at whim (which doesn't really happen).

So, the status that the democrats (and some others, AFAIK) want WILL result in them not being able to vote, until they've stayed here a certain number of years required for citizenship (generally, there are exceptions).

You don't really seem to know what you're talking about WRT immigration, it's amazing you like to argue about it so much.

It's funny too you seem to be bashing the democrats by saying they're only doing this for votes, when Bush has catered to the Mexican immigrants in a superficial manners, which is probably also just for votes. Most politicians don't do things from the goodness of their heart, there's almost always some other motivation.

[Edited on April 19, 2006 at 1:00 AM. Reason : ]

4/19/2006 12:57:57 AM

I've read this thread and it's entirety, and I have grown disgusted at the views and opinions of most you. And I pray to god that you all diddn't recieve an education, from the exact same institution that I got mine from. Fucking baffoon morons you are!

LoneSnark
It amazes me that you seem to have all the answers, just all the answers to this issue and it's complexity. Shoot down every one elses opinion,but yours stands alone. It amazes me even more that you "claim" to be a political science major...d'oh...I meant computer engineering. That's why you only have an iota of knowledge concerning this issue.

You imbecile, these, well some of these people, are bringing alot more than just hopes and dreams across those borders(FACT) in overwhelming numbers. Sure every thing looks dandy from a work related /economic p.o.v. But it sure is alot more to the U.S than just "that". WHERE/WHAT ARE THE FUCKING BENEFITS YOU ASSHOLE?

You being the Compassionate Humanitarian that you are, I got a question for you. Where do we draw the line? From the way you put it, borders are non existent/pointless/futile.

We damn near have an eighth of that countries population. Where do we stop?? when we reach the half way point??Where do we stop and why?

4/19/2006 12:58:37 AM

^ racist

4/19/2006 1:10:51 AM

not hardly. It's called harsh reality aka wake up and smell the fucking cafe' con leche.

4/19/2006 1:15:39 AM

^ IF they're not hurting us, what's the harm in it? Why does it matter if 1/8th of their people are here or not?

4/19/2006 1:18:10 AM

I think this is a pretty significant link, got it from p.1 of this thread.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11226144/

and you say they're not hurting us eh'? Reconsider your def of "hurting"

This is BULLSHIT!!! WHAT THE MOTHER FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE???

This amount or illegal immigration must stop. Point blank. Period. As for the ones who are here, it's feasible to deport the felons and criminals with records back to their country. Citizenship can be worked out for the working/contributors. Stop acting as if this is an "all or nothing" situation.

[Edited on April 19, 2006 at 1:28 AM. Reason : ,]

4/19/2006 1:21:15 AM

^ That's pretty terrible, but it's a decided minority (213 incursions over 10 years vs. the MILLIONS of immigrants here) of the immigrants.

Quote :

"This amount or illegal immigration must stop. Point blank. Period. As for the ones who are here, it's feasible to deport the felons and criminals with records back to their country. Citizenship can be worked out for the working/contributors. Stop acting as if this is an "all or nothing" situation."

Haha, that's what people like LoneSnark and GrumpyGOP (and others) are trying to say.

[Edited on April 19, 2006 at 1:30 AM. Reason : ]

4/19/2006 1:28:20 AM

In rebuttal, these are the ones only caught on camera etc. The drug industry is a multi billion dollar industry. So I highly doubt that only 213 incursions took place over a ten year period. So would any DEA FBI, ATF agent.


And then, these incursions involve transport via truck load. We're talking about tons potentially making its way into the U.S yearly. Just think about it for a second. We can't sit back and say "well, its not alot of drug activity". This is something we can stop at our borders. No we can't stop all the drugs from crossing over, but we can surely try.

[Edited on April 19, 2006 at 1:36 AM. Reason : .]

4/19/2006 1:32:26 AM

First of all, I bet it's mostly Americans buying the drugs.

Second of all, no one is saying don't stop people who are terrorist/drug dealers/axe murders/whatever from coming in to the country? Where did you see someone say this?

4/19/2006 1:40:51 AM

People say it when they say shit like "do these people not deserve a right to a better life"?
Common sense will tell you that axe murderers/drug dealers/ms13 gangs/ are not going to walk across with that shit written on their face. Wake up dude.

If we tightened up security, we have a better chance at weeding them out. For the ones here, background checks. Im willng to bet that, of those 12 mill here illegally, a quarter of them have criminal records!! Its a realistic number.

If you are here illegally, and you are a felon/habitual criminal gtfo.

Quote :

"First of all, I bet it's mostly Americans buying the drugs."

you justification sucks!!!

[Edited on April 19, 2006 at 1:50 AM. Reason : ,]

4/19/2006 1:48:32 AM

a lot of the people here would probably agree with a system where people were stripped searched at the border, given a background check and then let go free if they didnt have drugs and werent a terrorist. with no more worrying about illegal vs legal than that.

4/19/2006 1:50:28 AM

^^So you're saying it's okay for immigrants to come here, assuming they have clean records?

Would you be okay with making the current illegals legal, assuming they had no violent history, and also letting in any immigrant who wants to come in, also assuming they can pass a background check?

[Edited on April 19, 2006 at 1:53 AM. Reason : that wasn't a justification btw]

4/19/2006 1:51:37 AM

^^you forgot waiting in line

Citizenship
if you're already here: Have no criminal record, working. Pay a fee for breaking the law. An so on.
if you're on the other side: wait your turn like everyone else. Your situation is no different from any other poor person trying to get into the country. No criminal record.
Don't make everyone a felon: Thats pathetic

Amnesty= none*
Fine companies hiring illegals*

Border
Stop All Illegals: nuff said. No more 12 million
Stop All Drugg Traffic: nuff said
No Guest Worker Program: they get here, start families, then become obligated and protected to a certain degree by law to remain with family. Borders are then useless, system is taken advantage of


[Edited on April 19, 2006 at 2:00 AM. Reason : .]

4/19/2006 1:51:42 AM

1/4 of immigrants are criminals?
are you an alias for rush?

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=132475
that link is a reprint of a ny times article. im assuming that none of us wants to give them 4 bucks to read it on their site.

4/19/2006 1:58:11 AM

^ Even if 25% if people were criminals, it would still be idiotic to block the other 75% out because of them.

4/19/2006 2:04:27 AM

That article only speaks for "violent acts by almost 3,000 males and females"

First of all your article fails to say shit about victim characteristics, which is an important factor commonly over looked in statistical crime talk. Second, violent crimes only make 1 half, that weak article leaves out property crime etc, that counts also.Then, the sample was taken from a Chicago neighborhood which ultimately serves as an inaccurate representaion, nontheless underminning the homogeneity of most latino communities(see L.A, Phoenix, Texas). An there is a such thing as an inaccurate sample representation.

But on the other hand, the crime rate was my opinion. We will never know the exact. My whole point was, we simply can't let every one in. There was a line, and they already broke the law,people. We must enforce our laws. The hispanic community are the main violaters of this law/privilege.

Thats why they are so passionate about it. The have to realize that, they arn't the only ones trying to come in. The system is not broken. Being illegal is whats broken.

[Edited on April 19, 2006 at 2:27 AM. Reason : .]

4/19/2006 2:20:36 AM

^ No one is saying to let everyone in.

People are saying to let the people in who can prove they're not a criminal or a terrorist, and to recognize that most of the people classified as "illegal" too are neither criminals nor terrorists.

4/19/2006 2:25:36 AM