3

6/30/2006 2:06:07 PM

that last argument was just dumb. who has won a championship alone? nobody can win by theirself. kobe did pretty well by himself.

6/30/2006 2:11:42 PM

no one wins it alone....


you are missing my point.


You have to be able to make your teammates better, by getting them open jumpers, so they can knock them down.

Shaq has done it his entire carreer, so has Nash. Look at this year...no one knew who in the hell Barbosa, Jumaine Jones, Boris Diaw, and others were before they played with Nash.

Kobe feels like he has the weight of the world on his shoulders, and chooses to try lift it himself rather than letting his teammates help. Kobe doesnt like acknowledging that he needs help, so he has temper tantrums like he did in game 7 vs Phoenix where he only took 3 shots in the second half. He quit on his team to prove that they always need him to shoot in order to be effective.

Thus....Wade>>>Kobe

6/30/2006 2:23:19 PM

Quote :

" I think people put too much emphasis on the Rings w/o taking a closer look. Since he ran Shaq off, Kobe has done nothing but score an insane amount of points. He hasn't won anything (no MVP's, no scoring titles, NO RINGS). He hasnt made anyone on his team better (Unlike Shaq, who made Walker, Williams, and Posey legitimate threats, and not just gunners). Kobe's just a scorer. Until I see someone play better b/c of playing with Kobe, I will not say that he is the best player in Basketball. "

He did win the scoring title this year, champ.

Walker, Williams, and Posey weren't legitimate threats. They practically disappeared in the playoffs, and they weren't very good in the regular season. Not to mention, talent wise, they're not horribly bad either. They played just as well when they played on other teams. Shaq's ability to make everyone else better is a bit overrated.

The Lakers were playing better b/c of playing with Kobe towards the end of the season and during the playoffs, no doubt there. He just has to stay consistent with the gameplan, and then maybe everyone else will recognize that he can make everyone else better. I mean, c'mon, someone had to make Smush Parker and Kwame Brown look so good this season. Smush freakin Parker and Kwame freakin Brown. You could give the credit to Odom, but I think he and Kobe should share that credit.

Kobe is the best in the NBA right now. If I had to build a franchise around a guy though, it'd be Lebron. Youth means a ton when it comes to building a franchise. It's hard to believe that Kobe is entering his 10th or 11th season next year.

6/30/2006 2:25:58 PM

i too would build around lebron

same way even though i like shaq more than kobe, and took shaq's side when they had their beefs before shaq left the lakers, i would still pick kobe over shaq to build a team around, just due to age

however, if you swapped kobe and wade this year in the playoffs, the heat would've still won (assuming kobe and shaq got along which is a huge assumption) and the lakers would not have won 3 games in the phoenix series

6/30/2006 2:41:45 PM

Quote :

"Walker, Williams, and Posey weren't legitimate threats. They practically disappeared in the playoffs, and they weren't very good in the regular season. Not to mention, talent wise, they're not horribly bad either. They played just as well when they played on other teams. Shaq's ability to make everyone else better is a bit overrated."

I do not agree. Did you see Jason Williams in the Detroit series?

or Posey and Walker in the last two rounds especially.

They were solid all year, yes, but the difference is that they Key players on the Heat and SUns are willing to let the role players do thier jobs, and trust them in doing so. Whereas Kobe shoots, shoots, and shoots more, then passes once, the teammate bricks, and he bitches and wont pass them the ball for the rest of the game.

He is a Glorified ballhog in basketball's Mt. Olympus, the NBA. I

f he tried that shit on the street courts, niggaz would like it at first, then they'd stab his ass.

6/30/2006 2:43:19 PM

maybe wade averaged 1.5 more apg than kobe in the playoffs because his team was much better

6/30/2006 2:51:16 PM

^how bout he scored 1.5 points more than him because if he didnt the heat were fucking done

7/5/2006 5:45:55 PM

I am blown away by the fact that all these names are mentioned and IT TOOK UNTIL PAGE 3 for someone to even mention SHAQ (except in reference to Kobe and Wade).

If you want to win, you'll go where Shaq is (see Jason Williams, Antoine Walker, and Gary Payton).
While he may be on the decline (due solely to age) he is still dominant. He still requires a double team and still MAKES HIS TEAMMATES better. He is the reason everyone is hyping DWade and he is OK with that role.

You guys are so freakin' guard oriented. Let us think OUTSIDE the ESPN box for a moment and consider someone who can RULE THE PAINT (Shaq, Garnett, Duncan, *and Dirk is working on that aspect)

Given those big men, I still think James tops them in future+current ability. If I were drafting a team or buying out a contract this is my order of BEST PLAYER IN THE NBA:
1) James
2) Shaq
3) Duncan
4) DWade
5) Dirk (though my favorite, he isn't ready to carry a team: see Champ series, games 3-6)
6) Garnett

7/6/2006 1:10:02 AM

^i respect your differing opinion...but there is no way shaq is anywhere near the 2nd best player in the league. i wouldn't put him in the top 10.

7/6/2006 5:47:11 PM

you are nuts if you think Shaq is better than Duncan at this stage of his career.

Duncan had a bad season this year because of his foot, but when healthy you can certainly argue he's still the best player in the league...

I just think he's got a lot of mileage on him at this point and don't see him being able to carry a team to a championship anymore (they rode Ginobili in '05)... although he was damn close this year...

And Garnett better than Lebron? That's silly.

[Edited on July 6, 2006 at 5:52 PM. Reason : a]

7/6/2006 5:52:05 PM

Again, Kobe is the best all around player in the nba, no debate about it!

7/6/2006 6:16:42 PM

no, he isnt

a great offensive game does not equal the best all around player in the league

7/6/2006 6:26:23 PM

There is certainly a debate right now between three players.

Lebron, D.Wade, and Kobe.


Lebron makes a strong argument because he's so dominant offensively. He can single handedly carry an offense (as he proved this year). He also makes his presence felt on the glass. He gets points off for not being THAT clutch yet and being an average defender at best.

Wade makes a strong argument because he's such an efficient offensive player. His ability to get to the line (even though some of this is ridiculous) makes him borderline unstoppable. He's a pretty good defender and he's proven to be clutch. He gets points off for being an inconsistent jump shooter and he has to prove himself without Shaq...

Kobe makes a strong argument because he's the best all around scorer in the game. He's one of the most lethal jump shooters in the league and he's one of the few guys in the league with a complete offensive package. He's also a good (not great as he's often believed) defender. He gets steals and uses his quickness well, but he isn't a shutdown defender like Jordan was due to his lack of size...


You can argue all day over the three...

7/6/2006 6:28:25 PM

great players dont vag out in big games like kobe did this past season

7/6/2006 8:10:55 PM

Kobe did vag out in game 7... he shoulda gone balls to the wall but my god... i dont think his supporting cast could have played ANY worse...

their inability to defend Phoenix was unbelievable really... its game fucking seven, they should have known what to expect by then...

7/6/2006 8:23:18 PM

nonetheless, three shots in the second half lf a game 7 instantly takes you out of the running for best player in the NBA.

I TiVo'ed that game and watched it 3 times, he literally just fucking stood there to prove his point when the critics were bashing him.

7/6/2006 8:55:13 PM

^5 you are aware that kobe has been an all NBA defensive teamer about every year he has been in the league right?

7/6/2006 11:26:54 PM

steve kerr

7/6/2006 11:28:08 PM

^^ i dont care about awards... Kobe is not a shutdown defender. He's not Jordan, he's not Bruce Bowen, he's not even Raja Bell. He's not a guy who can LOCK DOWN.

He is a guy who can put up steals & blocks and make flashy plays... he is a guy who competes on both ends... he's a GOOD defender.

7/7/2006 1:58:50 AM

I've seen too many games where Kobe completely shuts down the all star on the opposing team. He's done it and continues to do it. A small example is vs Dallas 2003, December. The Mavs were up by 26 in the fourth quarter when Kobe was asked to guard Nash who was killing them with scoring and distributing. Nash had about two points and no assists in the final quarter while being guarded by Kobe whereas Kobe scored 21 in that quarter alone with the game winning shot.

He also did the same to T-Mac while Kobe had a shoulder injury. T-Mac was so frustrated he actually shoved Kobe where he later admitted after the game that he lost control and that him and Kobe are buddies.

Those are just a couple on memory.

7/7/2006 2:22:43 AM

#13, pg for phoenix

7/7/2006 2:32:56 AM

Take your pick

7/7/2006 2:42:11 AM

^guy holding the ball

7/7/2006 3:23:22 AM

^^^^ okay, just from memory i'll refer to the game this year where Lebron scored all over Kobe in the post and on the perimeter.

Kobe isn't a lockdown defender. He's a good defender, but he's not MJ yet or even close.

7/7/2006 4:02:55 AM

you guys are acting like wade and lebron are some kind of lockdown defenders?

and please tell me how the fuck duncan is better than dirk?

Quote :

"If you want to win, you'll go where Shaq is (see Jason Williams, Antoine Walker, and Gary Payton). "

yeah it only took Payton following Shaq to two teams to win him a title...how'd that theory work out for Karl Malone?

7/7/2006 10:13:37 AM

^ In the year the Lakers got to the finals vs Detroit. Shaq, Payton and Malone (mostly injured) were complete shit.

7/7/2006 10:52:10 AM

more like Payton and Malone were complete shit and still are

7/7/2006 11:00:03 AM

Was this originally a Jim Rome attempt? He's always calling Kobe #24.

7/7/2006 11:01:55 AM

^^^^^ I am not sure if Kobe was guarding Lebron or not, but just to remind you. They split the 2 games.

Lebron had 28 and 29 PPG with 7 and 5 turnovers per game, Kobe had 27 and 38 PPG with 5 and 3 turnovers.

Again, I don't remember any guarding each other but Flip Murray was the difference in that game the Cavs won scoring 14 of 21 points in the fourth quarter. Also, Ilgauskas shot 10 of 16 from the field. Now if Kobe were to guard James, it would be in the fourth quarter and that would mean he held him to 5 points and 1 assist while James' team did most of the shit.

When the lakers won, it was all Kobe hitting all the clutch shots also shutting down Lebron on the final shot.

[Edited on July 7, 2006 at 11:12 AM. Reason : .]

7/7/2006 11:12:00 AM

^^hehe, ^^^ Payton did hook Miami up in the finals with a huge shot and huge layup which is usually why they bring him. In the finals against Detroit, the Lakers whole team was horrible. Wallace and Wallace killed Shaq and Malone who didn't play much anyways. Billups owned Payton and Kobe tried to come up with something. The rest of the players were worthless as well.

[Edited on July 7, 2006 at 11:15 AM. Reason : .]

7/7/2006 11:15:19 AM

yeah i was just addressing the earlier comment about players who want to win go where Shaq is...like they just forgot the two Lakers years when DET and SAS won the finals

7/7/2006 11:19:42 AM

^ the funniest thing about all this is the other day when they had a finals highlight recap or whatever (I think on sports center). And they showed how Miami always did better offensively AND defensively when Shaq was off the floor. I did notice this during the games, but right on confirmation from espn.

7/7/2006 11:23:36 AM

Zo was a helluva defensive center during the limited minutes he gave the Heat

7/7/2006 11:42:25 AM

Last game, Zo had an incedible dunk in transistion that killed any hopes of the Mavs coming back.

7/7/2006 11:44:43 AM

Karl Malone hurt his knee against Minnesota in the W.Conference Finals.

The Lakers would have been bounced in the 2nd round that year if Karl Malone hadn't shut down Tim Duncan for four consecutive games. He also did a pretty good job on Garnett before he got hurt.

I loathe Karl Malone but he was the key to the Lakers making the Finals that year.


and yes, Kobe was guarding Lebron for much of that game...


Kobe is the best defender of the three, but he's not one of the top 5 in the game... "awards" are given by sportswriters who are too busy eating the postgame buffets and ogling naked athletes in the lockerroom to actually watch the games.

7/7/2006 1:55:23 PM

A friend of mine had those games recorded and I just watched most of them. Kobe guarded Lebron only about 25% of the time in those games. Basically when it really mattered in the clutch. And in the clutch, Lebron did nothing whereas Kobe hit incredible shots and for the shot he missed in Cleveland, he was guarded by Snow (their best perimeter defender) and another guy.

7/7/2006 2:34:43 PM

If Derek Fisher wouldnt have hit that shot, they wouldnt have made it out of the Spurs series ^^

7/7/2006 2:36:46 PM

Quote :

"And Garnett better than Lebron? That's silly."

If that is in reference to my list, I have Lebron 1st and Garnett at the bottom.

I agree to an extent with your argument about Duncan and Shaq. I love Tim Duncan but I also know that there is NO ONE in the league that can stop Shaq, except his teammates.

7/7/2006 10:24:05 PM

I remember watching the whole Lebron vs. Kobe matchup a little while back.

Kobe did do a pretty good job of playing defense on Lebron. Lebron is Lebron though, and I knew that he would get his points, regardless of who was guarding him. I noticed that a lot of Lebron's points didn't happen when he was 1 on 1 with Kobe. Someone would set a screen and Lebron would shake loose and get the dunk/layup or the easy jumper. It's what every smart team does to a good defender.

I'm going to need to watch some Bulls highlights to see if Jordan was really as good a defender as everyone made him out to be. I always thought Pippen was about the D, and that Jordan just did well enough.

7/7/2006 11:42:56 PM

^ Pippen is the man and Jordan couldn't do it without him. He did basically have the toughest defensive tasks.
Just remember when he stepped up and shut down Magic Johnson to go on and win the finals.

7/7/2006 11:56:53 PM

Scottie Pippen is probably the most underrated basketball player that will ever live.

You cant be an all around better player than Scottie Pippen was during his prime.

7/8/2006 2:54:56 AM

^Amen!

7/8/2006 3:43:24 AM

Kobe plays at about 215, 220

Jordan never played over 210 until he came back with the Wizards

7/8/2006 10:20:41 PM