people have been calling New Jersey "New Jerusalem" for mad years

7/27/2006 11:48:03 AM

^ yes,

it was written

it was meant to be

7/27/2006 11:49:51 AM

there's a good number of old jews in florida too, hell it's getting taken over by hispanics anyway, might as well let the jews try to fight them out

7/27/2006 11:52:23 AM

Quote :

"even if they didn't want new jersey, I don't think many people would have a problem with them taking one of those big square states out west"

nah, we need a win-win situation here, lets get them close to Wall Street

Quote :

"well maybe the indians, but fuck them"

obviously that's feathers not dots...speaking of which, NJ is full of dots

7/27/2006 11:53:27 AM

Quote :

"even if they didn't want new jersey, I don't think many people would have a problem with them taking one of those big square states out west"

Utah.

the Mormons have already fuckered it all up, anyway.

7/27/2006 12:15:07 PM

mmmmm

7/27/2006 12:19:11 PM

Quote :

"ok, how would you solve the palestinian problem, which is the main issue here? [Edited on July 27, 2006 at 12:08 AM. Reason : "thousands of Israeli civilians" as opposed to tens of thousands of arab civilians?]"

I would have the Palestinians fold into Israel and operate within the country as a political party or parties. Israel has a very strong democratic republic and it would end up giving the Palestinians much more representation and sway to be within the Israeli government. They would make up a substantial party in parliament.

And there is no way you can argue substantially more innocents have died on either side of the battle. To do so would be completely ignorant, because reported numbers are subjective at best and no one really has any idea how many have died since 1948. Both sides have suppressed many massive death tolls to appear stronger or less affected during various conflicts.

7/27/2006 1:38:15 PM

Quote :

"Quote : "Everyone is always so quick to blame Israel for bombings and killing civilians and bloodshed and violence" Well, they are kind of you know, doing it, so who else should we blame? Quote : "but SO QUICK TO FORGET the thousands of Israeli civilians who have died as a result of terrorism over the past 3 decades, all because their neighbors cannot or will not stop the organizations responsible" I think that's terrible too, but just the killing of innocent civilians doesn't justify killing more innocent civilians."

More innocent people are dying EVERY DAY in Iraq due to sectarian violence, but no one gives a shit about them. But when Israel moves on a MILITARY offensive, and civilians who were warned to leave are hurt and killed, the whole fucking world gets a stick up their asses

7/27/2006 1:40:47 PM

Quote :

"More innocent people are dying EVERY DAY in Iraq due to sectarian violence, but no one gives a shit about them."

Agian, innocent people dying somewhere else doesn't justify killing further innocents.

Quote :

"But when Israel moves on a MILITARY offensive, and civilians who were warned to leave are hurt and killed, the whole fucking world gets a stick up their asses"

That's because it's still wrong to kill innocents. They want to have a war, fine. They want to go in and take out military targets, fine. They want to level an entire civilian structure just because there might be a few military targets inside? NOT OK.

7/27/2006 1:51:52 PM

I didn't say it's okay, I said it's fucking hypocritical to BLAME them SOLELY, like Israel is the source of all loss of life. if you are going to get all uppity about Israel killing civilians, you had better put the other 100 or so areas in the world where FAR more people are killed and injured daily.

And the latter part of your statement is just called reality. People die everyday when they shouldn't and don't deserve to. It happens, they try their best to minimize it, but it happens. It also doesn't help that hezbollah sets up innocents to get killed in order to spread their influence and make Israel look careless, same shit happened in Iraq. Same shit happens in every conflict with non-sovreign powers.

[Edited on July 27, 2006 at 2:39 PM. Reason : .]

7/27/2006 2:38:13 PM

Quote :

"I didn't say it's okay, I said it's fucking hypocritical to BLAME them SOLELY, like Israel is the source of all loss of life."

I'm not blaming them solely, I'm blaming them for killing the innocent people they killed. Our arguement is something like this:
Me: Israel shouldn't have killed innocents
You: HEZBOLLAH KILLS INNOCENTS!
Me: Ok, they still shouldn't have killed those innocents
You: YOU BLAME EVERYTHING ON ISRAEL

Quote :

"It happens, they try their best to minimize it, but it happens."

Hezbollah could use that same defense. Killing innocent people is wrong. Israel claims itself to be a civilized government, thus they must be held up to the standards of a civilized government. This includes not killing innocents. THEY LEVEL ENTIRE BUILDINGS, that's not minimizing casualties. If they really want this war, they're going to have to do the same thing we had to do, which is go in with ground troops and manually take out the military targets, not just level city streets with rocket fire.

7/27/2006 3:00:20 PM

Quote :

"If they really want this war, they're going to have to do the same thing we had to do, which is go in with ground troops and manually take out the military targets, not just level city streets with rocket fire."

If you talking about Iraq, we killed plenty of noncombatants over there, too.

7/27/2006 3:21:51 PM

It's still better than just launching rockets

7/27/2006 3:22:50 PM

Quote :

"Hezbollah could use that same defense. Killing innocent people is wrong. Israel claims itself to be a civilized government, thus they must be held up to the standards of a civilized government. This includes not killing innocents. THEY LEVEL ENTIRE BUILDINGS, that's not minimizing casualties. If they really want this war, they're going to have to do the same thing we had to do, which is go in with ground troops and manually take out the military targets, not just level city streets with rocket fire. "

They have allegiance to their own citizens safety and well being before that of neighboring countries. That's what a military does. Being a civilized government has nothing to do with collateral damage during a war.


And the point you still seem to miss, is that you are making the point about Israel at all. if you want to make the point that killing civilians is bad, then leave the "israel kills civilians" out of it, and just make your general point. Otherwise you are intimating that somehow the bystanders that Israel kills are somehow different or worse than any other.

^You mean like hezbollah and the PLO have been doing for decades?

[Edited on July 27, 2006 at 3:53 PM. Reason : .]

7/27/2006 3:53:02 PM

Why you should support Israel

7/27/2006 5:29:04 PM

Quote :

"Being a civilized government has nothing to do with collateral damage during a war."

People being killed inside a building leveled by rocket fire is not just "collateral damage". Suppose I had three people. I know one of them is a terrorist, but I don't know which one. I machinegun all three, where the other three collateral damage?

Quote :

"is that you are making the point about Israel at all"

Well didn't they kill them? Obviously I need to point it out seeing as how you seem to get extremely offended when I point it out.

Quote :

"if you want to make the point that killing civilians is bad, then leave the "israel kills civilians" out of it, and just make your general point. Otherwise you are intimating that somehow the bystanders that Israel kills are somehow different or worse than any other."

Because israel being a civilized government MUST be held to higher standards. They know better. We could expect little more from terrorists and guerillas, but an organized government is required to act better than indiscrimantly killing innocent civilians.

7/27/2006 5:35:49 PM

so if you're a civilized govt you should essentially try harder to not kill civilians

yet the terrorists and guerillas shouldnt try harder to be civilized

7/27/2006 5:38:48 PM

do you think if we asked them to be more civilized it would do any good?

7/27/2006 5:42:04 PM

certainly not

and i agree with you that a more civilized country/govt should be more responsible than the terrorists as far as killing civilians, etc

but i dunno, it just seems like some of the ways in which civilized countries and govts handle their business in war time inevitably get thrown out the window when fighting against more uncivilized, less conventional enemies

7/27/2006 5:47:19 PM

Quote :

"t just seems like some of the ways in which civilized countries and govts handle their business in war time inevitably get thrown out the window when fighting against more uncivilized, less conventional enemies"

That just puts them on equal moral footing as the terrorists, and justifies the terrorists cause.

7/27/2006 5:50:46 PM

no, you just have to adapt your strategy based on your enemies

7/27/2006 5:54:29 PM

killing civilians is not a strategy

it is not acceptable, ever

7/27/2006 5:58:27 PM

cept when we need to do it to kill the bad guys

7/27/2006 5:59:03 PM

but being a terrorist that kills civilians for fun is acceptable ever?

7/27/2006 6:16:44 PM

Again Kris, this is reality, not some fantasy land. If you have three people in a room, one of which is a terrorist, you dont machinegun all three, you interrogate them to find the terrorist and release the other two.

In the case of Lebanon, Israel did the responsible thing, which has probably cost them dearly in taking out hezbollah. They warned the inhabitants of southern lebanon for nearly a week to LEAVE, they announced the bombardments. The dropped tens of thousands of leaflets announcing it.

The people who stayed are no longer innocent civilians. There were given a choice, they made that choice and must live with the consequences. Same shit here when they tell people to evacuate for hurricanes. Some people stay, it's not the fault of the city or state that they die or get hurt.

I will restate, I agree that it's important to avoid as much innocent bloodshed as is possible. But in reality it's impossible to avoid it entirely.

7/27/2006 6:40:05 PM

no, it makes you an animal

7/27/2006 6:40:50 PM

well then Kris, how do you fight animals and win while remaining civil?

7/27/2006 6:54:18 PM

Quote :

"The people who stayed are no longer innocent civilians."

They're still most certainly noncombatants. And Israel also bombed the roads and shit, which makes leaving rather hard.

Quote :

"Same shit here when they tell people to evacuate for hurricanes. Some people stay, it's not the fault of the city or state that they die or get hurt."

But it is the fucking hurricane's fault, bub.

7/27/2006 8:00:06 PM

Doesnt matter who's fault it is. If someone tells me my town is gonna get bombed next week Id WALK the fuck out of there if I had to.

They may be non-combatants, but they made the choice to stay and risk life and limb.

7/27/2006 10:30:15 PM

Quote :

"The people who stayed are no longer innocent civilians. "

wow.

that's a very cold and cruel statement.

Quote :

"I would have the Palestinians fold into Israel and operate within the country as a political party or parties. Israel has a very strong democratic republic and it would end up giving the Palestinians much more representation and sway to be within the Israeli government. They would make up a substantial party in parliament."

You have to be joking, right? If you are going to suggest that, then you have no idea about Israelis, do you?

Israel WOULD never allow that, ever. Because it would compromise the "Jewish character" of Israel. Israel wants to remain significantly Jewish. That's why they have never agreed to the Palestnian demand of "Right of Return", which would to be allow the return of the millions of Palestinian refugees outside of Palestine (mainly in Lebanon and Jordan). Even if they don't return, there already nearly as many Palestinians living in Palestine as Jews in Israel. If you make it one big country, soon, the Jews will be a minority. How could any Zionist allow that?

And BTW, it is interesting that you don't support the Palestinian's right to have their own land, land which they have been living on and cultivating for 1000+ years. WHY shouldn't they have their own country?

7/27/2006 10:35:40 PM

Quote :

"well then Kris, how do you fight animals and win while remaining civil?"

By only killing the animals and not killing the innocent people.

7/27/2006 10:51:26 PM

^And you tell the difference how?

^^Israel doesnt want the entire Palestinian population to come back because it would decimate the economy. The Zionist movement worked en-mass because the immigrants had resources to contribute to the new state and goverment. If you bring in millions of refugees immediately into a small country, it would be impossible to deal with their welfare. I definitely think that there should be immagration in a more regulated way over time to let the palestinians return.

Zionism was not started as a military movement. The jews moved into uninhabited land and built their own state. It was only when Palestine rejected the formation of a dual state and attacked Israel that the conflict began. As early as the 1930's, quite a few prominent jewish figures supported folding palestinians into Israel as a single democratic state. The Zionist movement is strictly a notion (im talking about the major majority here, not the small spinoffs of zionism) to give Jews the opportunity to be on equal footing. Equal rights, opportunity, a fair and democratic government. Not to mention that Zionism has never been agreed with or supported by all jews or even an overwhelming majority. It seems so easy to forget that the Jew's as a people have been 2nd class citizens for most of recorded history.

Quote :

"Israel WOULD never allow that, ever. Because it would compromise the "Jewish character" of Israel. Israel wants to remain significantly Jewish. That's why they have never agreed to the Palestnian demand of "Right of Return", which would to be allow the return of the millions of Palestinian refugees outside of Palestine (mainly in Lebanon and Jordan). Even if they don't return, there already nearly as many Palestinians living in Palestine as Jews in Israel. If you make it one big country, soon, the Jews will be a minority. How could any Zionist allow that? "

Israel wants to ensure it's people are treated fairly and justly. If you had a staggered return of Palestinians, it would be fairly well balanced in terms of population. There would probably remain a majority of jews in government, but again this is nothing new. The US is still struggling to have equal representation of African Americans and dozens of other countries have similar racial and ethnic imbalance in government that is slowly settling out.

Quote :

"And BTW, it is interesting that you don't support the Palestinian's right to have their own land, land which they have been living on and cultivating for 1000+ years. WHY shouldn't they have their own country? "

The American Indians were on this land for 10,000 years, Aztecs and Mayans about as long, the Celt's in Britannia and Germany, and what about the Kurds, or the aboriginees? While it would be nice to let everyone have their land back, it's not how the world works (I agree it's unfortunate). If people could actually get along and settle their differences, then there wouldnt need to be country borders at all.

[Edited on July 28, 2006 at 1:26 AM. Reason : .]

7/28/2006 1:23:25 AM

is it possible to support israel killing hezbollah and not be a zionist?

7/28/2006 1:26:33 AM

Quote :

"The jews moved into uninhabited land and built their own state. It was only when Palestine rejected the formation of a dual state and attacked Israel that the conflict began."

Uh, the conflict started years before that. There was violence there back in the '30s.

7/28/2006 1:50:13 AM

Quote :

"And you tell the difference how?"

It's not easy, but it can be done, additionally, it must be done.

Quote :

"Israel doesnt want the entire Palestinian population to come back because it would decimate the economy."

WW2 germans could have used the same excuse for locking the jews up. Israel is being ethnically cleansed. They just do it with rockets and bulldozers rather than gas chambers and crematories.

Quote :

"If you bring in millions of refugees immediately into a small country, it would be impossible to deal with their welfare."

Perhaps they shouldn't have been kicked off their native land to begin with. Perhaps their house shouldn't have been bulldozed down to make room for more jewish homes.
Hell you guys get up in arms about eminent domain, at least that's your government taking your land away from you, and at least they pay you for it. This is a foreign power that these people didn't vote for, taking the land that was rightfully theirs.

Quote :

"The jews moved into uninhabited land and built their own state. It was only when Palestine rejected the formation of a dual state and attacked Israel that the conflict began."

There were numerous jewish terrorist groups attacking both the innecent native palestinians as well as the british peacekeepers.

Quote :

"It seems so easy to forget that the Jew's as a people have been 2nd class citizens for most of recorded history"

That doesn't give them the right to further oppress another people.

Quote :

"The American Indians were on this land for 10,000 years, Aztecs and Mayans about as long, the Celt's in Britannia and Germany, and what about the Kurds, or the aboriginees? While it would be nice to let everyone have their land back, it's not how the world works (I agree it's unfortunate)."

The problem is that this whole israel thing not only happened after we knew that colonializm was a bad thing, but it's still going on today. Let's say your great great grandfather owned black slaves, yeah it sucked, nothing we can do about it now. Now let's say you owned a slave right now. Then it's a problem. We know slavery is wrong, even without the law in place.

7/28/2006 9:28:09 AM

"It's not easy, but it can be done, additionally, it must be done."

This is not an answer

7/28/2006 9:41:26 AM

i wonder if the jews are gonna vote primarily republican in the 08 elections since they primarily have voted democrat in recent elections but the republicans are the ones who seem to actually care about israel

7/28/2006 9:41:26 AM

^doubt it.

7/28/2006 10:04:38 AM

^^probably

7/28/2006 10:19:55 AM

uh no

there may be a little swing, but nothing too drastic

i mean, look at the history....

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jewvote.html

oh and

Quote :

"but the republicans are the ones who seem to actually care about israel"

[Edited on July 28, 2006 at 10:44 AM. Reason : /]

7/28/2006 10:41:46 AM

Quote :

"It's not easy, but it can be done, additionally, it must be done."

That's a worthless statement. If you dont have a specific rationale and methodology to identify the difference, then you are just blowing hot air out your ass. It's pretty apparent that you have no idea of the basic precepts of war, reading some Art of War should shed some light for you on the reasons it's almost impossible to differentiate between civilians and terrorist militants.

This is a guerilla war and it has to be fought as such. You speak of civilized nations and responsibility, but when your enemy will not face you directly and hides behind the bodies of innocents and propoganda, you cannot take a civilized path to defeat them.

Quote :

"WW2 germans could have used the same excuse for locking the jews up. Israel is being ethnically cleansed. They just do it with rockets and bulldozers rather than gas chambers and crematories."

Except Israel has no plans to rule the world, they have never shown any desire to ethnically cleanse any group of people. They want, and rightfully so, freedom and equality for their people. Something they have had for only about 50 years, after thousands of years of oppression.

Quote :

"Perhaps they shouldn't have been kicked off their native land to begin with. Perhaps their house shouldn't have been bulldozed down to make room for more jewish homes. Hell you guys get up in arms about eminent domain, at least that's your government taking your land away from you, and at least they pay you for it. This is a foreign power that these people didn't vote for, taking the land that was rightfully theirs."

They were the ones who rejected peaceful cohabitation, don't forget that. Had Palestine accepted the Jews as immigrants, and folded them into an equal rights representative government, none of this would have been an issue. However what happened was what has happened for millenia, they rejected the Jews as outcasts, and wanted to REMOVE THEM BY FORCE. You speak of ethnic cleansing, well now you know the position of Palestine and Syria. This is what Israel has to deal with.

As for the land being "rightfully theirs", of any area on earth, Israel has the least rightful owners. Dozens of civilizations have claimed Israel, lived and prospered there, and lost their claims to another power. As much as I'm sure it hurts your bleeding liberal heart, the right to land is based on military might. It has been since the beginning of human history and until the whole world wakes the hell up, it will remain so. You can dream about what you want, but the REALITY is that the person who can defend their land from invasion is the one with the rightful claim to it.

Quote :

"There were numerous jewish terrorist groups attacking both the innecent native palestinians as well as the british peacekeepers. "

The violence started long after Israel was granted a "home" within Palestine. You are getting your timelines mixed up.

Quote :

"That doesn't give them the right to further oppress another people."

Israel is not oppressing Palestine. Palestine refuses to recognize Israel, or deal with them peacefully. You need to look up the definition of the term.

Quote :

"The problem is that this whole israel thing not only happened after we knew that colonializm was a bad thing, but it's still going on today. Let's say your great great grandfather owned black slaves, yeah it sucked, nothing we can do about it now. Now let's say you owned a slave right now. Then it's a problem. We know slavery is wrong, even without the law in place."

The difference is, slaves are individuals. You are proposing that the Jews LEAVE Israel. There is no where to go. You can't displace one population in the name of another. Your analogy isn't applicable. And colonialism did not happen here. Again you need to look up some definitions. Britain didn't back Israel, did not provide them support or aid, beyond the initial borders that were put in place (which I agree did really fuck things up proper, but again not the fault at all of Israel)

^^^I doubt anyone is going to vote republican in this next election.

7/28/2006 10:47:39 AM

Quote :

"They were the ones who rejected peaceful cohabitation, don't forget that. Had Palestine accepted the Jews as immigrants, and folded them into an equal rights representative government, none of this would have been an issue."

It's a lot more complicated than that. Some Zionists, at least, really wanted to kick all the non-Jews out. The buying of land from absentee landlords left poorer Arabs homeless, though the landlords were as much to blame for that as the Zionists. Either way, as I understand it, the Arabs wanted the immigration to stop, but the didn't want to kick out the Jews that had already come.

The Arab reaction certainly could have been better, but if a bunch of Mexicans tried to reclaim the Southwest for la raza, you know Americans would get pissed.

7/28/2006 12:02:01 PM

Quote :

"Had Palestine accepted the Jews as immigrants, and folded them into an equal rights representative government, none of this would have been an issue."

That is an outright lie. The Jews were accepted as immigrants. The Arabs had no problem with the Jews immigrating and living there, until they realized that they had plans to create their own state and displace the Arabs there in doing so. I'd be pretty fucking angry myself, if the illegal immigrants all congregated together and tried to form their own state kicking me off my land in the process.

Quote :

"Israel is not oppressing Palestine. Palestine refuses to recognize Israel, or deal with them peacefully. You need to look up the definition of the term."

And I don't blame them. I wouldn't accept peace until every piece of land that was stolen from me was back in my possesion.

Quote :

"You are proposing that the Jews LEAVE Israel. There is no where to go"

Lies. There are plenty of places to go. If the US cares about the Jews so much, why don't they give them land here? Oh yeah, i know why: cause that would require that Americans give up something of their own, which most are unwilling to do. But this country has ZERO problem asking/forcing others to give of themselves.

7/28/2006 12:06:43 PM

Quote :

"but the republicans are the ones who seem to actually care about israel"

you deny this jwb? cause i dont recall clinton doing much in the way of supporting the israeli military when they were getting hit with rockets from lebanon during his administration...the bush administration especially and most republican administrations clearly have firmer stances on terrorism than most democrat administrations...i think you're arguing just because you like arguing

7/28/2006 12:52:47 PM

again,

no, i dont DENY that republicans support israel.

you seem to be the one who wants to DENY that democrats and independents support israel also.

AMERICA supports israel, by and large

7/28/2006 1:00:09 PM

so which party, the democrats or the republicans, has more widespread backing for militarily supporting israel? cause you didnt answer the question i asked...big surprise

sounds to me like you're trying to convince me, to put it simply, that democrats support war more than republicans which is retarded, even by your standards

7/28/2006 1:04:49 PM

Quote :

"you deny this jwb?"

Quote :

"no, i dont DENY that republicans support israel."

there is your question, and the answer

Quote :

"sounds to me like you're trying to convince me, to put it simply, that democrats support war more than republicans which is retarded, even by your standards"

what in the blue fuck are you talking about? actually, forget it, dont even try to explain where your getting this shit. i'm not going to read it anyway.

[Edited on July 28, 2006 at 1:08 PM. Reason : .]

7/28/2006 1:08:14 PM

i already clarified my question but you want to go back to what you perceived to be the first question, then ignore me...that a way, you show me who's boss!

7/28/2006 1:09:43 PM

I don't give a shit if this sounds stupid or ignorant, so here's my solution:

1) Let every last one of those guys over there bomb the hell out of each other (nuking is acceptable, but not preferred due to the resulting radioactive contamination). Just let them completely annihilate each other and leave nobody alive, or at the very least leave no viable government or military infrastructure left intact. Afterwards, send relief workers and supplies to help any civilian survivors (assuming they exist). But no more of this pro-western, "democracy" building bullshit.

2) Move in and grab all the oil fields.

3) Profit.

That may sound stupid and uneducated and racist or whatever else you wanna call it, but everybody knows it's coming. Everybody knows that those mother fuckers are going to wind up kill each other anyway. There's no way that Jewish Israel and Islamic Middle East will ever get along peacefully, they've been at each other's throats since Israel's conception. Peace between them is a naive dream, and it doesn't help that both come from stubbornly religious backgrounds. So I say that we just go ahead and let them kill each other.

7/28/2006 1:13:03 PM

treefucktard.

you said:

Quote :

"the republicans are the ones who seem to actually care about israel"

i disagreed with your tired black and white analysis, saying:

Quote :

"AMERICA (read: democrats AND republicans AND independents) supports israel, by and large"

whatever other bullshit you've vomitted onto the screen i am ignoring

[Edited on July 28, 2006 at 1:16 PM. Reason : /.]

7/28/2006 1:13:51 PM