they didnt absolutely have them...but they didnt absolutely not have them either

Quote :

"blatant evidence of non-confirmation"

again, not finding something is not evidence that something doesnt exist

one of the problems though is many people are stuck on the incorrect premise that the ONLY reason we went to war in Iraq was because Saddam had WMDs...there were 18 other resolutions that the large majority of Congress, both Democrat and Republican, voted on and passed

8/29/2006 3:58:04 PM

Quote :

"how come all the people who like to point out logical fallacies and strawmen and act like they have a good grasp of logic still dont understand the concept that just because you dont find something doesnt mean it doesnt exist"

like god?

8/29/2006 4:25:28 PM

yes God is another example of something that may or may not exist, that we can't prove exists, or can't prove doesn't exist

Just like whether or not Iraq had WMDs

thanks for helping make my point

8/29/2006 4:34:51 PM

I wouldn't declare war because somebody told me they thought another country might have god.

8/29/2006 4:57:55 PM

what if there was absolute proof that they did have a god 10 years ago and used some of that god to kill many of their people

8/29/2006 4:58:56 PM

areyou guys seriuos??

8/29/2006 5:03:51 PM

in these last few posts, god = wmd's

i'm trying to explain logic to the logic masters

8/29/2006 5:05:35 PM

Quote :

"what if there was absolute proof that they did have a god 10 years ago and used some of that god to kill many of their people"

And that "god" was provided by the US and used on Iranians with the understanding of the US!!!

Ha, talk about a u turn.

[Edited on August 29, 2006 at 8:27 PM. Reason : A lot more Iranians died from Iraqi "gods" than Iraq's own people.]

8/29/2006 8:27:04 PM

Quote :

"what if there was absolute proof that they did have a god 10 years ago and used some of that god to kill many of their people"

...and when exactly was god used to kill many of their people?

Because I'm assuming these people were Kurdish, and were attacked--in an open war--with the god we sold them well over 20 years ago.

8/30/2006 12:05:13 AM

so just because America sold them the weapons means its our fault that he uses them on his own people

brilliant

8/30/2006 9:52:44 AM

so it's ok for iran and syria to supply iraqi militants with munitions that they use on their own people?

and you're telling me that if we found out that iraq supplied any terrorist with supplies that you wouldn't trummpet it as "iraq supporting terrorists."

our hands are dirty over our support of iraq when they were fighting iran. we knew they were doing bad things, we just looked past it because we thought iran was the bigger threat. don't act like we didn't know this stuff was going on.

[Edited on August 30, 2006 at 9:56 AM. Reason : .]

8/30/2006 9:54:08 AM

so sarijoul, you are a supposed humanitarian because you care so much about the paki-americans who allegedly attended terrorist camps in pakistan...you care so much about their rights as the humanitarian you are...yet because "the US knew what was going on" you have no sympathy for the 10s of thousands of people saddam murdered with WMDs....right

8/30/2006 10:03:39 AM

wait. what?

where did i EVER even imply that it was ok?

i'm just comparing two similar examples. i care about the iraqis that were killed by saddam. i also think that america is partially responsible for supporting saddam while he was doing this and supplying him with the weapons and continuing to support him after this happened. certainly he bears the brunt of the responsibilty since it was his order. but it is a stain on our country's credibility to support people like this and then bring it up 20 years later as a war crime.

8/30/2006 10:07:01 AM

its always americas fault isnt it

8/30/2006 10:07:56 AM

^^so what would you have us to do??

or do you have anything to offer other than to blame america??

8/30/2006 10:08:40 AM

i think we shouldn't have gone to war in iraq in the first place. there are no good choices now. i don't envy anyone who has to make big decisions about the iraq war.

8/30/2006 10:12:25 AM

ok...so you have nothing to offer...

8/30/2006 10:16:43 AM

is that supposed to distract me from the fact that conservatives got us into this mess to begin with and could likely get us into similar messes in the future?

what is your answer? what should we do?

8/30/2006 11:23:17 AM

well saying you dont agree with the war in the first place helps and changes absolutely nothing

i can play monday morning 3 years later quarterback too

8/30/2006 11:28:08 AM

Quote :

"is that supposed to distract me from the fact that conservatives got us into this mess to begin with and could likely get us into similar messes in the future? what is your answer? what should we do? "

and: i was against this war before it ever started.

[Edited on August 30, 2006 at 11:29 AM. Reason : .]

8/30/2006 11:28:52 AM

what does you being against the war from the get go have to do with the current plan?

if you were trapped in a cave with minimalizing oxygen and trying to find a way out, would you waste all your time complaining about how you shouldnt have come into the cave in the first place?

8/30/2006 11:31:01 AM

^exactly

your insistence on hating conservatives and lack of offering anything constructive is pathetic...

1) "so what should we do?"
2) "YOU GOT US INTO THIS MESS!!!!!!"
1) "ok sooo...what should we do??"
2) "YOU FREAKIN FASCISTS!!!..THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT!!!"
1) "ok well...do you have any suggestions that we could consider??"
2) "DEATH TO BUSH!!!"

8/30/2006 11:32:21 AM

what should we do?

8/30/2006 11:34:52 AM

thats what im asking you??

8/30/2006 11:39:24 AM

how about maybe keep doing what we're doing? unless you think transforming a country from dictatorship to democracy is a process that only takes a couple years

8/30/2006 11:39:30 AM

8/30/2006 11:41:19 AM

8/30/2006 11:43:46 AM

NO WMDS BEFORE THE WAR...YEP

8/30/2006 11:48:15 AM

so show me a picture that's from some time between 1995 and 2003.

8/30/2006 11:50:16 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2941733.stm
^

Quote :

""Free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things," "

-Rumsfeld

Iraq has had elections, has a goverment and a Constitution. Mission Accomplished, time to leave.

8/30/2006 11:56:16 AM

Quote :

"so show me a picture that's from some time between 1995 and 2003"

yep...those dead kurds dont mean shit if they werent killed in a certain time frame

nice selective humanitarianism...you dont give a fuck about people in general

btw i'm 100% certain that those photos of kurds that SADDAM USED WMD'S ON were taken "before war" as the title of the thread reads

8/30/2006 11:56:26 AM

if you read the article, it clearly says:

Quote :

"Despite this, a Harris Poll released July 21 found that a full 50 percent of U.S. respondents -- up from 36 percent last year -- said they believe Iraq did have the forbidden arms when U.S. troops invaded in March 2003, an attack whose stated purpose was elimination of supposed WMD. Other polls also have found an enduring American faith in the WMD story. "

dont argue about a poor/vague thread title.

[Edited on August 30, 2006 at 11:59 AM. Reason : df]

8/30/2006 11:59:13 AM

apparently you dont give a fuck about all the dead Kurds Saddam's regime killed either...as long as they fell into a certain time/date slot!

us govt = BAD, saddam's iraq govt = GOOD

8/30/2006 12:00:28 PM

thats not true at all. im trying to keep in context with the actual topic, not what happened before the scope of the question.

if the actual question was "did Iraq ever have WMDs? , then your logic would be correct, but that wasnt the question being asked.

[Edited on August 30, 2006 at 12:03 PM. Reason : df]

8/30/2006 12:01:58 PM

Quote :

"not finding something is not evidence that something doesnt exist"

8/30/2006 12:06:03 PM

^still clinging to myth and Daddy George's kneecaps.

8/30/2006 12:07:53 PM

^^i agree, but it also doesn't prove that they did.

[Edited on August 30, 2006 at 12:09 PM. Reason : df]

8/30/2006 12:08:32 PM

yeah i said that in the first post of this page

so you're admitting that theres just as much proof that iraq didnt have WMDs at the start of the war as there is as much proof that they did have them

^^monica jealous that you're fellating her man?

8/30/2006 12:10:12 PM

^no fellating here...project much?

8/30/2006 12:14:29 PM

i havent said a single thing about proof. don't put words in my mouth.

i will say, however, that there is more evidence that shows that iraq didn't have WMDs at the start of the war.

in fact, the more i think about it, i dont agree with your statement. not finding something can be evidence that something doesn't exist, however, it doesnt prove that something doesnt exist. in this situation, not finding WMDs is evidence that they didnt exist, but it by no means proves that they didnt exist. there is no proof either way (imo, proof means fact), but there is very little, if any, evidence that shows that WMDs existed at the time the war started.

so to answer your assumption, i guess i dont believe that there is enough proof either way, but in this situation, there really isnt a way to prove that they didnt exist. you can only prove that they did exist...and thats if you find them. however, all the evidence points to no WMDs.



[Edited on August 30, 2006 at 12:20 PM. Reason : g]

8/30/2006 12:15:01 PM

Quote :

"there is more evidence that shows that iraq didn't have WMDs at the start of the war"

thats completely false...if i have money in my shoe, and somebody mugs me, and they dont see any money in my wallet, what evidence is there that i didnt have any money?

you just said yourself that not finding something doesnt mean that something doesnt exist...are you now rethinking your logic? cause you had it right the first time

^^what?

8/30/2006 12:26:43 PM

Japan attacked China and killed thousands of people.

I believe Japan has WMDs.

Let's invade Japan.

8/30/2006 12:35:34 PM

lets invade south carolina...er was it virginia?

8/30/2006 12:37:16 PM

i love how that little bastard randy never comes around anymore when you prove him wrong.

8/30/2006 3:51:04 PM

Quote :

"TreeTwista10: so just because America sold them the weapons means its our fault that he uses them on his own people"

And just what did we think he'd do with them? Decorate a fucking peace garden for the Kurds who were at war with him? Throw a tupperware party for them?

You've conjured up another poor excuse for logic in an attempt to equate criticism of policy with a callous indifference to suffering. Unless you've got some mindblowingly revolutionary way of demonstrating the chain of inference required to make leaps of faith (like the one above)--that you're willing to share--your line of questioning doesn't really deserve to be addressed.

Otherwise, I'll just declare the entire thing what I have from the start.

A false dichotomy.

Your argument here continues to boil down to this: (1) Support what happened in 2003 AND how its progressed, or (2) Don't consider the suffering of a the Kurdish people during their war with Saddam in the 80s.

Stop pretending that what you're explaining in any way resembles logic.

8/30/2006 6:12:59 PM

Quote :

"Japan attacked China and killed thousands of people. I believe Japan has WMDs. Let's invade Japan."

8/30/2006 6:15:50 PM

^^

Quote :

"And just what did we think he'd do with them?"

maybe....use them on...his enemies?

I guess by your logic you'd expect George Bush to use chemical weapons on the Americans who oppose him?

8/31/2006 11:40:24 AM

If a third of the nation opposed him? No.

If a third of the nation FIRED UPON THE REST IN A FIGHT FOR INDEPENDENCE? Yes.

Your insistent oversimplification of the state of Iraq in the 80s--something you recognize in reply to critics who post pics of Rumsfeld & Saddam, I might add--is going get you in trouble on this one.

[Edited on August 31, 2006 at 12:09 PM. Reason : ...]

8/31/2006 12:02:27 PM

These comparisons to Japan and states in the union are ludicrous. Saddam was a threat to his own citizenry and had no way of being brought down. When we first invaded, we were greeted as liberators, or have you forgotten the images of the happy Iraqi citizens in the streets after the toppling of the statue of Saddam? Unfortunately, terrorist groups saw the opportunity to sweep in and try to humiliate us as we attempted to finish what we started.

It is good that we invaded, and if you dont see that, you dont believe in the Iraqi people.

8/31/2006 12:20:19 PM

Quote :

"Randy: Saddam was a threat to his own citizenry and had no way of being brought down."

Motherfucker sounds immortal...

8/31/2006 12:31:42 PM