i don't think you can look at 11 throws and say he has no zip on his passes. not every throw requires "zip", in fact it's sometimes bad depending on the coverage/route. you saw him play for 4 years here at state, and he threw plenty of passes w/zip during that time. you think he lost that ability when he came to the pros?

9/13/2006 1:08:08 AM

actually arm strength has never been a relative strength of his.

His accuracy, vision, and composure were....

Marcus Stone has a much better arm than Philip... its just he has nothing else...

9/13/2006 1:11:31 AM

all im asking is that before you judge a 8-11 performance, wait until hes asked to be a leader instead of LT

9/13/2006 1:14:15 AM

Rally, you're like a broken record.

The concept that you are missing here is efficiency.

Rivers was (and always has been) efficient in the passing game. Vick was not, and he never has been for any significant stretch.

Vick's 50% completion percentage and poor decision-making makes him a liability in the passing game. His athleticism and legs make up for it, but don't act like he's a good passer. He's not. He is very tough to defend, but he's not a good passer. Don't compare his accuracy to McNabb's. McNabb led the league in completion percentage 2 years ago. Vick has never even sniffed 60% for a season.

I'll give Vick credit for being very difficult to defend. I'll give him credit for not turning the ball over too often. But he wasn't very good last year, and he wears down as the season goes on. We'll revisit this debate later on in the season, when he is forced to complete more than 10 passes in order to win a game.

The story of Sunday was Atlanta's ferocious defense. Vick looked good, but he's no golden god.

9/13/2006 1:15:05 AM

Quote :

"Marcus Stone has a much better arm than Philip... its just he has nothing else..."

Wow, thats really stupid.

Stone might have a stronger arm than Philip, but to call it "much better" is one of the dumbest comments in sports talk history. A good arm requires at least a semblance of accuracy.


Rivers had plenty of zip on the ball last night. He is probably in the middle of the NFL in armstrength, but his throwing motion prevents him from throwing a consistently accurate 40 yard strike. However, that same throwing motion allows him to get the ball off very quickly and does not hamper his velocity on shorter throws. He can throw the out patterns as well as anyone, and those throws are very reliant on armstrength.


[Edited on September 13, 2006 at 1:25 AM. Reason : 2]

9/13/2006 1:17:12 AM

yeah i mean his release is incredibly fast. the second he sees his man the ball is out. he doesn't wind up as much w/his throwing motion, so the velocity of the pass won't be as high, but it will be much harder for defenders to react to for the most part.

9/13/2006 1:41:26 AM

Quote :

"Rally, you're like a broken record. The concept that you are missing here is efficiency. Rivers was (and always has been) efficient in the passing game. Vick was not, and he never has been for any significant stretch. Vick's 50% completion percentage and poor decision-making makes him a liability in the passing game. His athleticism and legs make up for it, but don't act like he's a good passer. He's not. He is very tough to defend, but he's not a good passer. Don't compare his accuracy to McNabb's. McNabb led the league in completion percentage 2 years ago. Vick has never even sniffed 60% for a season. I'll give Vick credit for being very difficult to defend. I'll give him credit for not turning the ball over too often. But he wasn't very good last year, and he wears down as the season goes on. We'll revisit this debate later on in the season, when he is forced to complete more than 10 passes in order to win a game. The story of Sunday was Atlanta's ferocious defense. Vick looked good, but he's no golden god."

Quoted for accuracy

9/14/2006 12:41:37 AM

vick will never be the leader of a consistent offense year in and year out.

9/14/2006 12:43:13 AM

Quote :

"only throws for 110 yards"

Sorry to bring it up again but Rivers threw his yards in his first start in the NFL

Stone threw his yards where?

9/14/2006 6:09:10 AM

Quote :

" 4. Broadcasters are treating Michael Vick like he's Trent Dilfer rather than as one of the league's highest-paid players. Let me clear something up. Vick completed less than half of his passes and threw for just 140 yards in Atlanta's victory over Carolina. But you might not know this the way TV broadcasters gushed over Vick's performance. I guess Vick is the one NFL superstar quarterback we're supposed to judge on wins and losses alone. Sorry, I'm not going to do it. Vick is not Trent Dilfer. Vick is supposed to be a better version of Randall Cunningham. Dilfer won a Super Bowl and received his walking papers. Vick rides the Warrick Dunn bandwagon to a few regular-season victories and gets a $100 million contract. That ain't right."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/060914

9/15/2006 12:15:56 AM

bttt,


Im an idiot

What was I thinking saying Eli was a good QB?

What was I thinking saying Rivers was a good QB?

What was I thinking saying Vick was a great QB?


Oh wait, i was right.

[Edited on September 17, 2006 at 6:44 PM. Reason : a]

9/17/2006 6:43:57 PM

well you got one thing right

Quote :

"Im an idiot"

9/17/2006 6:50:34 PM

^^you might be right if you changed great to good.

i'm havin a hard time seein what vick has done better than rivers and eli so far this season to warrant a great rather than just a good.

[Edited on September 17, 2006 at 6:54 PM. Reason : .]

9/17/2006 6:53:37 PM

Dominated the Panthers and Bucs Defense???


Its just funny if Vick has an off game he gets eaten on here...

But when he absolutely wipes the fucking floor with two top defenses i hear silence...

9/17/2006 6:56:35 PM

are we judging the defenses he's faced based on the past or currently? cause so far, those d's have looked porous at best, especially the panthers.

9/17/2006 7:00:14 PM

jesus h christ would you shut the fuck up about vick????????


The reason people are on him so hard in the first place is because of people like you mouthifying his dick for no fucking reason at all except that he can outrun everyone in the league.


the sooner you get that through your thick skull the better off we'll all be. damn you're stupid.

9/17/2006 7:00:15 PM

i can accept good quarterback, but great quarterback is a bit of a stretch. he's done well so far with leadin the team. he's made plays when he's needed to. but its not as if he's lighting up the scoreboard, hittin receivers left and right for 300+ yds or anything.

9/17/2006 7:02:29 PM

^ thats jsut the thing, he DID light Tampa up today...

and nope i will not shut up about Vick because people had the audacity to say Brett Favre was a better QB than him.

People made arguments for Chad Pennington even...

When everyone admits they were retarded ill let it go.

You went ON AND ON AND ON about how bad he was...

In the meantime Vick is what Jesus would aspire to be if he played QB.

The Panthers D didnt look porous today they looked really good... they pretty much had their way with the Vikings...so that says even more about how Vick throttled us last week....

[Edited on September 17, 2006 at 7:10 PM. Reason : a]

9/17/2006 7:10:10 PM

somebody has a case of the sundays.

9/17/2006 7:10:30 PM

Quote :

"In the meantime Vick is what Jesus would aspire to be if he played QB. The Panthers D didnt look porous today they looked really good... they pretty much had their way with the Vikings...so that says even more about how Vick throttled us last week...."

now i know you're trolling/joking.

9/17/2006 7:12:01 PM

^ why? The Panthers D looked good today they shut down the run and were smoking Brad Johnson all afternoon...

We dont fumble the ball on a trick play and thats likely a 13-6 shutdown win...

9/17/2006 7:16:42 PM

allowing a 100+ yd rusher (who i'd never heard of til last week, but thats a different story) isnt really shutting down the run, and they did very poorly against the pass when the d-line allowed johnson to pass.

9/17/2006 7:18:25 PM

i strongly disagree.


First of all Chester Taylor is a quality RB. Just because you dont watch a lot of football and have never heard of a guy who has been a solid player for a few years now doesn't mean he isn't. Chester Taylor was held in check for most of the game. He put up a lot of stats in OT. But OT never happens if the Vikes dont score on a fake FG (thats special teams) and get the ball at the 20 on a trick play gone bad (thats special teams)

Brad Johnson got lit a bunch of times today. 5 sacks, 1 INT, and in general they couldnt move the ball against us.

We didnt allow a single offensive Touchdown....

defense looked strong...

9/17/2006 7:24:48 PM

well then, we disagree, and this is pointless.

9/17/2006 7:28:19 PM

they gave up two field goals in regulation and a FG in OT...

how can you say they didnt play well?

It wasnt dominant or anything but it should have been good enough to give us the win against a quality team on the road...

9/17/2006 7:56:20 PM

they played all right. run defense was all right for a middle of the road defense, but certainly not up to the hype that this front line had garnered. the secondary was shaky at best. i was arguing that they were not a top defense, as you had said. if you agree that they are not dominant, then maybe we dont disagree as much as i thought.

9/17/2006 8:27:40 PM

you're arguing about him calling the panthers D good?

you should be arguing about him calling the Tampa Bay "we let baltimore score 20" Bucs good.

9/17/2006 8:34:26 PM

well i've watched both panthers games. i have no idea how the ravens scored 27 or whatever. coulda been all defensive td's for all i know.

9/17/2006 8:37:02 PM

there was one defensive TD, that's why I said the TB D allowed 20 points.

9/17/2006 8:47:02 PM

Quote :

"but its not as if he's lighting up the scoreboard, hittin receivers left and right for 300+ yds or anything. "

Just to show you stats dont matter with Vick, fucking Simms through for over 300yds and couldn't even get a damn touchdown. Meanwhile, Vick had over 200 total yards, and had 2 TD's. Now which QB would you have rather had? I mean, it has to be Simms right since he had the more yards huh?

9/17/2006 8:51:36 PM

i'd say vick and pRiv are pretty much equal at this point

9/17/2006 8:53:36 PM

Nah, vick is much better at converting critical plays against big time opponents.

9/17/2006 8:54:46 PM

^^haha, yeah, I really hope you are fucking joking. Rivers has looked pretty good, but he walked into a stacked team and is pretty much just going through the motions. Vick had a shit team for years and was able to win with them over and over. And how about you let Rivers play atleast a season, before you even TRY and compare the two lol.

[Edited on September 17, 2006 at 8:57 PM. Reason : .]

9/17/2006 8:56:47 PM

guess that is like saying peyton is earning all that he brings to the table... he is on a pretty stacked team too, but we still call him a great QB...

That point doesnt go very far. You still have to be good for your team to win.

9/17/2006 9:00:23 PM

they are both 2-0 against winless teams.

neither has won anything significant

9/17/2006 9:00:59 PM

you conveniently left off the first part of what i said.

Quote :

"he's done well so far with leadin the team. he's made plays when he's needed to."

this is what simms is not doing. of the two, i'd take vick, as he has done 2 of the 3 qualifiers.

9/17/2006 9:01:19 PM

Quote :

"You still have to be good for your team to win."

So Trent Dilfer was a GOOD QB when he was on the Ravens SB team?

^But Simms has better stats!!!! How in the hell could you take Vick over him?!?!

[Edited on September 17, 2006 at 9:06 PM. Reason : .]

9/17/2006 9:06:05 PM

okay, thought you were having rational discussion, not trolling. my mistake.

9/17/2006 9:11:17 PM

http://mb15.scout.com/bohiostate

kindly leave, no one likes you

9/17/2006 9:13:39 PM

Im not trolling...

How is what I posted not rational?

Was Dilfer a great QB?

And almost everyone on here says that stats are all that matters.

[Edited on September 17, 2006 at 9:15 PM. Reason : .]

9/17/2006 9:13:51 PM

then perhaps you just innocently overlooked where i said:

Quote :

"you conveniently left off the first part of what i said. Quote : "he's done well so far with leadin the team. he's made plays when he's needed to." this is what simms is not doing. of the two, i'd take vick, as he has done 2 of the 3 qualifiers."

9/17/2006 9:15:45 PM

Oh, no, I remember that, and what I posted really wasnt directed at you totally. Its just that everyone on here knocks Vick for not having a ton of passing yards, I was just posting, once again, to show them that stats dont mean as much as they seem to want to think they do. They are so blinded by their hate for Vick, that they even ignore his ability to lead his team to victory.

9/17/2006 9:17:26 PM

After the first week Philip had #1 passer rating. I imagine this week didn't hurt.

Quote :

" Quarterback Passing Player Team G Att Att/G Cmp Pct Yds Yds/G Lng TDs Int Sck SckY Rate Philip Rivers SD 1 11 11.0 8 72.7 108 108.0 38 1 0 0 0 133.9 Charlie Batch PIT 1 25 25.0 15 60.0 209 209.0 87 3 0 3 13 126.5 Chad Pennington NYJ 1 33 33.0 24 72.7 319 319.0 41 2 0 2 17 123.2 Kurt Warner ARI 1 37 37.0 23 62.2 301 301.0 39 3 0 3 18 114.8 Donovan McNabb PHI 1 35 35.0 24 68.6 314 314.0 42 3 1 1 3 113.3 David Carr HOU 1 27 27.0 18 66.7 208 208.0 44 1 0 5 37 102.1 Rex Grossman CHI 1 26 26.0 18 69.2 262 262.0 49 1 1 1 6 98.6 Damon Huard KC 1 20 20.0 12 60.0 140 140.0 25 1 0 4 30 97.9 Michael Vick ATL 1 22 22.0 10 45.5 140 140.0 34 2 0 1 7 96.8 Matt Hasselbeck SEA 1 30 30.0 25 83.3 210 210.0 36 0 0 5 37 95.8 Steve McNair BAL 1 27 27.0 17 63.0 181 181.0 35 1 0 1 13 94.8 Eli Manning NYG 1 34 34.0 20 58.8 247 247.0 37 2 1 0 0 88.7 Brad Johnson MIN 1 30 30.0 16 53.3 223 223.0 46 1 0 1 0 88.6 Alex Smith SF 1 40 40.0 23 57.5 288 288.0 46 1 0 1 2 88.3 Carson Palmer CIN 1 19 19.0 13 68.4 127 127.0 30 0 0 1 7 87.0 J.P. Losman BUF 1 23 23.0 15 65.2 164 164.0 20 0 0 3 23 86.1 Byron Leftwich JAC 1 34 34.0 23 67.6 237 237.0 30 1 1 1 8 85.0 Tom Brady NE 1 23 23.0 11 47.8 163 163.0 34 2 1 3 27 82.3 Peyton Manning IND 1 41 41.0 25 61.0 276 276.0 34 1 1 1 4 78.9 Mark Brunell WAS 1 28 28.0 17 60.7 163 163.0 37 0 0 0 0 76.9 Jon Kitna DET 1 37 37.0 21 56.8 229 229.0 30 0 0 3 16 75.2 Marc Bulger STL 1 34 34.0 18 52.9 217 217.0 49 0 0 3 22 72.8 Drew Brees NO 1 30 30.0 16 53.3 170 170.0 20 1 1 0 0 67.4 Trent Green KC 1 15 15.0 11 73.3 90 90.0 15 0 1 3 24 60.4 Andrew Walter OAK 1 5 5.0 2 40.0 28 28.0 21 0 0 2 11 58.8 Aaron Brooks OAK 1 14 14.0 6 42.9 68 68.0 20 0 0 7 43 58.0 Jake Delhomme CAR 1 39 39.0 21 53.8 186 186.0 25 0 1 4 36 56.1 Charlie Frye CLE 1 27 27.0 16 59.3 132 132.0 18 1 2 5 31 53.3 Vince Young TEN 1 4 4.0 3 75.0 27 27.0 11 0 1 0 0 53.1 Daunte Culpepper MIA 1 37 37.0 18 48.6 262 262.0 52 0 2 3 22 49.6 Drew Bledsoe DAL 1 33 33.0 16 48.5 246 246.0 51 1 3 2 11 45.8 Kerry Collins TEN 1 38 38.0 17 44.7 223 223.0 25 0 2 2 8 41.9 Brett Favre GB 1 29 29.0 15 51.7 170 170.0 25 0 2 3 22 40.9 Bruce Gradkowski TB 1 5 5.0 1 20.0 4 4.0 4 0 0 1 1 39.6 Chris Simms TB 1 29 29.0 17 58.6 133 133.0 27 0 3 2 20 30.5 Jake Plummer DEN 1 26 26.0 13 50.0 138 138.0 19 0 3 4 40 26.3 "

9/17/2006 10:20:29 PM

Mac, the only thing you are proving is that you are a complete fucking idiot, stfu

9/17/2006 10:30:14 PM

I would love for the Panthers to have Philip or Vick.

9/17/2006 11:17:02 PM

Quote :

"After the first week Philip had #1 passer rating"

haha, thats because he only threw it a handful of times, the rest of the time he just handed it off to LT.

9/17/2006 11:32:50 PM

25/35 today though so its not like he can't do it. Its still early but you still have to give PR credit for managing the team without making mistakes. He's clearly not the stud of the team but the QB doesn't always have to be. He's clearly showing all the signs that he's more than capable of being a great QB. i He has a great grasp of the offense and never looks confused or overwhelmed. I won't get too excited until he actually is needed to win a game... can't ask for a better way to start the season for breaking a QB in though.

If Vick could get just an ounce of accuracy and touch he would be one of the top 3, without a doubt. His natural athletic ability suffices most of the time but as he ages and those knees start to go he's going to degrade as a QB quick. Atlanta needs to stop wasting time with the West Coast Offense and enjoy what he has to offer while Vick still has it. Of course if Vick does develop even mediocre touch and accuracy then he'll be fine, but I'm not holding m breath. I'd most definitely take him if I am starting a franchise though... he can do more for you than someone like Manning or Brady if your team lacks talent across the board. He is not a great traditional QB, but he has the ability to beat you through non-traditional methods so its pointless to even bring it up at this point in his career.

9/17/2006 11:51:31 PM

^People don't care if a QB is effective. They only care if he can put up huge fantasy numbers.

9/18/2006 12:14:13 AM

Quote :

"Rivers has completed 33 of 46 passes (71.7 percent) for 343 yards and two touchdowns"

from article about volek coming to san diego

9/19/2006 2:28:38 PM