Quote :

"The Saints went 3-13 last year. This year they are 3-0. What do you want from the guy?""

not having a home field might have had a little bit more to do with the 3-13 than the lack of Reggie Bush did. When over half of your players and coaching staff are displaced from their homes for a year, it's kind of hard to focus on football.

10/8/2006 8:42:04 PM

I don't mean that Bush is 100% of the reason for their turnaround.

I just mean he's a good player.

He's doing well.

He's not doing quite as well as I thought he'd do, but they're using him in a different role than I thought they would.

TD's are a ridiculously poor way to solely measure someone's value.

[Edited on October 8, 2006 at 8:44 PM. Reason : a]

10/8/2006 8:44:02 PM

I don't think Bush will ever have the durability to be a true running back in the NFL. He'll make a great all-purpose player for kickoff and punt returns, or for using as a slot receiver in circumstances against prevent defenses. As far as being being a 1500 yard season running back, New Orleans would have to restructure their offense to do so. Right now I don't think they have enough speed on the O-line to make Bush as much as an outside threat as he has the potential to be. He never was an up-the-gut running back against defenses with a solid front line and linebacker core even in college, and that is going to be even more of an issue at the pro level.

If New Orleans could acquire some smaller and faster offensive linemen that excel at pulling blocks, similar to what is seen by Denver and Atlanta, I think they could turn him into a very formiddable weapon. However, it will take a few years to do this. Until then, it will be kind of hard to judge how good of a player Bush can be.

10/8/2006 8:56:34 PM

Like I said before, people are so obsessed with defined roles that they can't see that he doesn't NEED to be the protypical halfback. He is incredibly versatile and can disrupt an defense just as much as a 1500 yard rusher can...

It's just like Vick. People think he is a horrible player because he doesn't sit back there and throw for 300 yards a game...

10/8/2006 8:58:37 PM

This thread isn't called

"BUSH = NO PRO NFL PLAYER"

It's very clearly called

"Bush = No pro RB" (I even copied & pasted this to ensure accuracy)

And until the NFL makes a position called GC (for gamechanger), I'm going to continue to hold my stance that Bush is an inadequate National Football League halfback.

Vick would be better served as a RB, Bush as a WR. Both would be better served by their teams if they were paid less (to address some concerns, like Vick's current WRs and Bush's current OL).

10/8/2006 9:18:27 PM

Quote :

"Vick would be better served as a RB"

Okay now you're just being silly.


I can see the Falcons now saying hey lets take one of the top QB's in the game and turn him into a RB where he won't be effective and will get hurt immediately.


What makes Vick so dangerous is that he's a quarterback that can beat you with his arm or destroy you with his legs.

If you take away his arm you take away his gamebreaking ability and turn him into an RB that cant stay healthy.

10/8/2006 9:22:19 PM

that is partially true... he is definately a quarterback that can destroy you with his legs, but i have never seen him do too much damage with his arm.... most of the RB's in the nfl could probably be as affective

10/8/2006 9:24:19 PM

^^^ Again, falling into defined roles.

Fine, Bush isn't a pro HB. He is a pro RB/WR and a good one; a game changing one.

Fine, Vick isn't a QB. He is a pro QB/RB and a good one; a game changing one.

There ya go..

it's like saying jordan wasn't an adequate 2 since he didn't have the best jumper in the game (in an extreme sense)

Quote :

"Both would be better served by their teams if they were paid less"

And the Mets would be better off without paying Beltran as much, and the Yankees with Jeter, and the [insert team] without paying [insert name] as much.

[Edited on October 8, 2006 at 9:26 PM. Reason : x]

10/8/2006 9:24:37 PM

right...

MJ was a horrible 3 point shooter so i guess he was a bad Shooting guard since Shooting Guards are supposed to "Shoot"


Kevin Greene was a horrible linebacker because he was a horrible tackler and LB's are supposed to "tackle"

Lawrence Taylor was a horrible LB by this logic too.


Bush plays the position of RB and he does a good job of it. He's still learning but he's been effective so far.

10/8/2006 9:28:33 PM

The role of a pro RB

run the ball in all areas effectively; no. not at all. the main aspect
catch the ball; he does very well
block; not a very good blocker

So he is 1 for 3. I always supported him being a playermaker. I just recognized his weaknesses in college, when everyone else was blind to the fact. Now, they're like "ohhhhh I see".

^ you make the worst comparisons I have ever seen on this board!!
Please leave other people out of this argument. Those people have already proved themselves, bush hasn't done so. They have professional credits supporting them. Besides, all those individuals you mentioned have "done something" in their position to separate them from the rest. I don't see bush doing this at the Rb position.



[Edited on October 8, 2006 at 9:35 PM. Reason : .]

10/8/2006 9:29:28 PM

Quote :

"What makes Vick so dangerous is that he's a quarterback that can beat you with his arm or destroy you with his legs."

Yeah, 53 percent of the time... I'll grant you the stricken text.

Quote :

"Again, falling into defined roles. Fine, Bush isn't a pro HB. He is a pro RB/WR and a good one; a game changing one. Fine, Vick isn't a QB. He is a pro QB/RB and a good one; a game changing one."

I could name many other RBs that are very good at both running and catching.

I could name many other QBs that are very good at both passing and running (or at worst, scrambling effectively).

It's not anywhere near ideal to have a running back who is held to 3.5 ypc against limited run blitzing. I sure as hell wouldn't give this guy $62 million.

It's not anywhere near ideal to have a quarterback who is held to 53% completions despite defenses stacking the box and daring him to beat you by air. I sure as hell wouldn't give this guy $100 million.

Take the names Reggie Bush and Michael Vick - and thus, the resulting media slobberfest - away from these guys, and you're stuck with two overpaid players with better options at their respective positions on the same roster.


Or I could put on my media badge, bind these overpaid players most closely (if not entirely) to their team's success, and just completely overlook the deficiencies.



Why were people crying BUST about Mario Williams six months ago again?

10/8/2006 9:40:21 PM

Quote :

"Like I said before, people are so obsessed with defined roles that they can't see that he doesn't NEED to be the protypical halfback. He is incredibly versatile and can disrupt an defense just as much as a 1500 yard rusher can... It's just like Vick. People think he is a horrible player because he doesn't sit back there and throw for 300 yards a game..."

the problem with Bush is similar to the problem with Vick. To make his as effective as you possibly can, you have to design an offense primarily around him. Once you have the rest of your offensive players developed into a system that makes the most of Bush, you leave yourself incredibly vulnerable to losing everything if and when Bush ever has a serious injury. You also put yourself at the mercy of a player who is not easily replaceable, because there are very few players in the NFL that have the same characteristics of speed and agility as Bush demonstrates. Should he happen to suffer a career ending injury or death in some unforseen accident, you could be left with an unbalanced offense with little to no production in your hands.

10/8/2006 10:05:12 PM

Dude thats the whole point. The saints wouldn't miss Bush. They've had punt returners before him. Now the falcons would be heartbroken. So...

He has yet to do anything to earn the "premiere" label in the NFL. As long as Deuce is there, he will never be a starting Rb.

[Edited on October 8, 2006 at 10:10 PM. Reason : .]

10/8/2006 10:08:52 PM

if I were in charge of the saints, I would try to hype up Bush as much as possible this year. Then come draft time, I would offer him to someone in the AFC that is stupid enough to give up first round draft picks for the next couple of years for him.

10/8/2006 10:13:06 PM

^ like the Dolphins?

[Edited on October 8, 2006 at 10:13 PM. Reason : p]

10/8/2006 10:13:10 PM

Quote :

"What makes Vick so dangerous is that he's a quarterback that can beat you with his arm"

10/8/2006 10:16:33 PM

bush=jj

10/8/2006 11:14:01 PM

Ok, lets put it this way: Reggie Bush is a product of media hype. Why do you think the fact that he scored his first touchdown (5 games into the regular season) is plastered all across the internet and television media outlets. There was a rb drafted in the fifth round who in week one scored his first touchdown four games before Reggie Bush. Why was'nt that front page news? The fact is that he has made exactly one play this year that had any meaningful effect on a game (and lets not forget that he got some outstanding blocking on that play). He's a mediocre rb as of right now, there are about thirty guys in the NFL who can do what he's doing. Today he averaged 2.5 yards a carry and less than six yards a catch. Anyone other rb puting up these numbers would be having a bad day, Bush is being called a "game changer." And please don't talk about him being a returner as if that justifies the Messiah status he is given. Nobody pays 8.5 Mil a year for a punt returner. Reggie Bush is a Running Back, he should be treated like one. As for the success of the Saints' success as a team, lets not forget that they feature Drew Brees, Deuce McAllister (a real rb), Joe Horn, and Marques Colston on Offense. And lets also not forget that their 4-1 record (and Bush's less than stellar performance) comes against 5 teams with a combined record of 8-15. I'm not trying to hate on Bush but my point is he has a long way to go before he proves he's an NFL rb worth 51 Mil.

10/8/2006 11:18:12 PM

break that into paragraphs and I will consider reading it.

10/8/2006 11:24:47 PM

Jesus christ do you not understand that Bush's receiving yards are basically rushing yards?

They are throwing him screen passes that are completed at a very high rate.

They are using Deuce as their primary running back and Bush as their primary receiving back.

I dont know if it's working or not... i have no idea... the team is 4-1... they are one of the worst franchises in the history of the NFL.... its tough to tell if they are getting any better.... its hard to tell if if winning 80% of their games is better than winning 20% of them like they did last year.

Its really hard for me to say if that punt return won the game for them today. I know they were down late in the 4th quarter and that punt return gave them the lead. But who is to say that Tampa wouldnt have fumbled a snap and New Orleans D wouldnt have returned the fumble for 80 yards. You really cant say. I guess we should just pretend the game winning punt return TD was meaningless since we cant really say for sure if it mattered or not...

10/8/2006 11:29:13 PM

Quote :

" Its really hard for me to say if that punt return won the game for them today. I know they were down late in the 4th quarter and that punt return gave them the lead. But who is to say that Tampa wouldnt have fumbled a snap and New Orleans D wouldnt have returned the fumble for 80 yards. You really cant say. I guess we should just pretend the game winning punt return TD was meaningless since we cant really say for sure if it mattered or not..."

What are you talking about? "But who is to say that Tampa wouldnt have fumbled a snap and New Orleans D wouldnt have returned the fumble for 80 yards."

It was a PUNT RETURN, meaning that even if he didn't return it they had the ball with 4 min. You are right that that was the play that won them the game.

But to pretend like that was the only way that they could have won is retarded, especially with Brees and Colston, who have shown many times they are capable of winning games.

[Edited on October 8, 2006 at 11:46 PM. Reason : and both are bigger reasons for the NO turnaround than Bush]

10/8/2006 11:45:14 PM

the line today said something like "R. Bush game winning 85-yd punt return TD"

damn that kid is fast

and when that ankle/heel is 100%

god damn





:edit: ^^ hahahaha i just read that shit

we are winning this thread

[Edited on October 9, 2006 at 2:52 AM. Reason : lawl]

10/9/2006 2:49:32 AM

WHAT IS THIS THREAD FOR?!?!?!



Douchebag 1: "I think Reggie Bush is great. In fact, I'll suck his dick via message board"
Douchebag 2: "Bush sucks. Fuck you."
Douchebag 1: "Nuh uh, Bush is great. He can run fast and stuff."
Douchebag 2: "Bush sucks. Fuck you."

10/9/2006 3:34:42 AM

Quote :

"we are winning this thread"

You can't ride Rally's back on this thread. And he wins most threads up until he says that Vick can beat you with his arm...

10/9/2006 7:32:43 AM

I could tear apart your screen PASS=run arguement, but that would be to easy. As for headlines, look past them to where Bush is ranked 36 in the NFL in yards per carry. The fact of the matter is that there are plenty of guys in the NFL who can catch screen passes, none make 51 mil. Thats because it's only a small part of being a good NFL back.

As for the Saints last year, where do I begin? Oh, yeah, 1. Deuce injured 2. Aaron Brooks (need I say more) 3.HURRICANE KATRINA! Keep in mind that their records the three prior years were 8-8, 8-8, 9-7(and I can't remember but I think they won their first playoff game that year). These aren't GREAT records but they were winning games. With their off season moves on Offense, Defense, and in the coaching staff, and with their schedual so far, they would be 4-1 regaurdless of Bush.

Yes, his punt return was the game winning play, I don't dispute that. That was the one meaningful play I spoke of earlier. But had he not scored on it they would have had the ball anyway with plenty of time and good field position. And did anyone by chance catch the sound bite where Bush gives most of the credit to his teammates (which I like about him). And, not to marginalize the play (it was exciting) but it did come against a winless team.

The real question is why was the game that close against a winless team with a rookie qb making his first start with a depleted offensive line to boot.

Bush will have his chances to prove himself with Philladelphia and Chicago comming up, and to be honest I hope he does. Again, I'm not trying to hate on him, but as of right now he's not living up to what he is payed as an rb.

10/9/2006 1:02:44 PM

Quote :

"Once I turned that corner I was just trying to turn on the jets. It was so wide open the slowest guy in the world probably could have scored that touchdown. The monkey's off my back now."

- Reggie Bush

10/9/2006 1:20:28 PM

Exactly. Bush didn't do anything great on that punt return. The glory should have gone to his blockers, who did a GREAT job making room for him to run.

10/9/2006 1:22:19 PM

For AndyMac:

Quote :

"Ok, lets put it this way: Reggie Bush is a product of media hype. Why do you think the fact that he scored his first touchdown (5 games into the regular season) is plastered all across the internet and television media outlets. There was a rb drafted in the fifth round who in week one scored his first touchdown four games before Reggie Bush. Why was'nt that front page news? The fact is that he has made exactly one play this year that had any meaningful effect on a game (and lets not forget that he got some outstanding blocking on that play). He's a mediocre rb as of right now, there are about thirty guys in the NFL who can do what he's doing. Today he averaged 2.5 yards a carry and less than six yards a catch. Anyone other rb puting up these numbers would be having a bad day, Bush is being called a "game changer." And please don't talk about him being a returner as if that justifies the Messiah status he is given. Nobody pays 8.5 Mil a year for a punt returner. Reggie Bush is a Running Back, he should be treated like one. As for the success of the Saints' success as a team, lets not forget that they feature Drew Brees, Deuce McAllister (a real rb), Joe Horn, and Marques Colston on Offense. And lets also not forget that their 4-1 record (and Bush's less than stellar performance) comes against 5 teams with a combined record of 8-15. I'm not trying to hate on Bush but my point is he has a long way to go before he proves he's an NFL rb worth 51 Mil."

[Edited on October 9, 2006 at 1:26 PM. Reason : @]

10/9/2006 1:25:48 PM

ahahahaha another gem, this one from Elias Sports Bureau:

Quote :

"• Reggie Bush became the first rookie in NFL history to score a game-winning touchdown on a punt return in the final five minutes of the fourth quarter or in overtime. Bush scored on a 65-yard punt return with 4:17 remaining in the Saints' 24-21 win over the Bucs. (Honorable mention to Tamarick Vanover, who scored a game-winning punt-return TD in 1995, his first season in the NFL. But Vanover was not a rookie because he had played in the CFL.) • Bush caught 11 passes against the Bucs on Sunday. The only other player ever to catch at least 10 passes and score on a punt return in the same game was Rod Smith of the Broncos (2003 vs. Chargers)."

People will find ANYTHING to celebrate about this guy.

Pretty soon it'll be "first player to score his second touchdown 11 games into his rookie season with 5:47 to go in the third quarter and the wind at his back."

10/9/2006 1:29:32 PM

So basically he's the first rookie ever to win a game on a punt return TD.

And the first player ever to catch a lot of passes and score on a punt return.


Doesn't look like they were reaching that hard to me.


And its the Elias stats bureau. They get paid for releasing noteworthy statistical achievements.

10/9/2006 3:44:57 PM

^^^ Thx

Quote :

"And the first player ever to catch a lot of passes and score on a punt return."

Second player ever, he shares that honor with the great Rod Smith. Soon Reggie and Rod will get a spot in the fabled "Recievers who are also pretty good at special teams" section of the hall of fame.

10/9/2006 3:55:26 PM

Quote :

""Once I turned that corner I was just trying to turn on the jets. It was so wide open the slowest guy in the world probably could have scored that touchdown. The monkey's off my back now.""

AND SCREW HIM FOR BEING HUMBLE ABOUT SOMETHING PEOPLE HAVE BEEN HARPING ON HIM ABOUT!

10/9/2006 4:22:42 PM

Apparently according to the ATH "experts" Bush had a better game than Leinart because his team won.


AND THE ESPN HYPE MACHINE ROLLS ON!

10/9/2006 5:19:07 PM

^^ I'm not harping on him about that.

If anything, I posted that quote because EVERY sports show I've watched today conveniently left off that part of the postgame interview. Reggie readily admits that Lance Moore, Terrance Copper, Aaron Stecker, or Aaron Brooks could've been back there... yet all the credit goes squarely to Bush. While taking a shit, I heard somebody say that Reggie Bush had an amazing game. While brushing my teeth, I heard someone suggest rookie of the year. While posting on thewolfweb...

[Edited on October 9, 2006 at 5:30 PM. Reason : .]

10/9/2006 5:29:49 PM

Quote :

"They get paid for releasing noteworthy statistical achievements."

Yeah, but how many guys score game-winning touchdowns in, say, the 2nd quarter just before the half? It's like they went for as many variables as possible JUST to champion him in some way.

Where was Mario Williams' first consecutive sack and a half on consecutive plays against a black quarterback while playing for a franchise less than 10 years old in a non-night game?

[Edited on October 9, 2006 at 6:02 PM. Reason : _]

10/9/2006 6:01:30 PM

Quote :

"You can't ride Rally's back on this thread"

ahahahaha

nobodys riding anyones back

i just dont care as much

if this was about tiki barber i would be running it by now

10/9/2006 6:10:37 PM

^^ Dude Elias is as impartial as they come. They do stats for everyone and everything. Blame the ones who report the Elias stats..

[Edited on October 9, 2006 at 7:00 PM. Reason : x]

10/9/2006 7:00:29 PM

Sleik is just mad that his team is actually good for a change.

He's so bewildered that he's taking it out on Reggie Bush.

10/10/2006 2:11:16 AM

aha

10/10/2006 3:42:18 AM

Yup, that's what it is


It has nothing to do with a little tempered enthusiasm, or counterbalancing all the "all Reggie Bush has to do is take the field for 16 games and he's rookie of the year" talk


Since, you know, I was a Saints fan during the whole Ricky Williams fiasco, and thus had to endure the whole "let's-wear-fake-dreads-c'mon-it'll-be-cool" level of blind fanaticism

10/10/2006 5:28:57 PM

Tempered enthusiasm? Dude, you're like one more Reggie Bush fumble away from sliting your wrists.

You're acting like a Lions/Raiders fan.

10/10/2006 5:50:12 PM

...

10/10/2006 6:13:37 PM

Not that it says much but Bush is leading the NFL with 34 receptions.. he's my #2 RB behind LT and has been doing fine for me...

10/10/2006 10:27:00 PM

^^^ hahaha

10/10/2006 10:38:30 PM

Reggie Bush: The Next Gale Sayers Dante Hall

10/11/2006 10:33:59 AM

ESPN turned down the Reggie Bush Media Machine dial a few notches this morning on sportscenter, citing Drew Brees, and not Reggie Bush, as the difference maker in N.O this season.

I concur.

10/11/2006 12:27:14 PM

I'm listening to a podcast of The Herd, this guy is talking about Reggie Bush like he's reaching orgasm after every word

Right at the 4 minute mark is when it starts, insiders can check out this link:

http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/sportindex?sport=radio

Just search "Texans" on the page, and listen... this guy makes the worst comparisons ever.

10/12/2006 10:06:55 PM

Bump for the weekly Bush hatefest!

[Edited on October 15, 2006 at 1:27 PM. Reason : looks like he is getting more touches this week..]

10/15/2006 1:22:39 PM

He already gets more touches than any WR in football

10/15/2006 1:32:55 PM

wow, you watch the pregame shows too?

10/15/2006 1:52:03 PM