^^ and im still waiting for a REASON that you say that. i never said you were 100% wrong, i just said that it depends on the situation heavily.

my assertion:
the cover letter is there to flesh out the information on your resume and apply it to the job at hand. it isnt likely to be your primary attention grabber.

ex) ive got dem skills holmes. i did X at Y (in the resume) which directly applies to the position at hand. expound on x a bit.

my reasoning:
-multiple professionals have told me so, including a professional writing professor with many years of HR experience
-it makes logical sense that if someone isnt going to read a resume very thoroughly then they arent going to read a cover letter, which is more wordy, beforehand
-the general form of a cover letter seems to suggest reinforcing your resume not adding a great deal of new information (this form being suggested by most books/sites ive read and both professors ive had for resume-writing style courses)


[Edited on October 27, 2006 at 9:53 AM. Reason : the bigger the company, the more true my point is]

10/27/2006 9:50:00 AM

I have to agree with crayon on this one.

Now that I think about it, I've never once used a cover letter.

10/27/2006 10:15:50 AM

im on the job search right now. i've gotten 4 interviews so far, 3 of which were companies that did not have a cover letter from me.

10/27/2006 10:18:59 AM

are you supposed to send thank you letters/emails after interviews? what if its a phone interview (45 minutes in length)?

10/27/2006 11:00:08 AM

I always send e-mails thanking them for their time afterwards.

10/27/2006 11:11:23 AM

Just got through another round of interviews (at UIUC). Some of this is more interview related than resume related.

Some observations:

- The people who put Windows, Word, Excel, Access,etc. on their resume did so because they didn't have any legitimate technical skills. I called two out on having Access. They figured that it was part of office and no one would bring it up, but none of them had actually ever used it. no hire.

- Only one guy had a two page resume. His second page consisted of a list of industry publications. So, no ding on him for that. hire.

- A guy with a glowing resume had absolutely dismal communication skills. Technically speaking, he was above the curve, but I've met homeless people who could articulate better. no hire.

- Do some research on the company you're hiring. I asked one candidate what he knew about the company, and all he could come up with is that he knew it was the best one in the industry, which did not win him any points. He was another one who listed Windows 9x/NT/ME/2000/XP as a technical skill. no hire.

- Being able to show initiative and confidence go a long way. One candidate had a 2.8 GPA, no relevant work experience, and not much in the way of technical skills as shown on his resume. However, he was very articulate, confident, and expressed a willingness to learn. I gave him a quick chalk talk on some basic networking concepts, went through some other questions, and came back to what I had taught him, and had him apply those concepts to a problem. He nailed it. hire.

- Don't talk shit about a previous employer. We will always assume that you were the problem.

10/27/2006 11:24:46 AM

Quote :

"The people who put Windows, Word, Excel, Access,etc. on their resume did so because they didn't have any legitimate technical skills. I called two out on having Access."

the times i did put those on there (usually for more non-technical jobs) i never added access for that reason.

10/27/2006 11:38:55 AM

Quote :

"Don't talk shit about a previous employer. We will always assume that you were the problem."

People actually do that???

10/27/2006 11:53:02 AM

Quote :

"some basic networking concepts"

not to go off topic, but I'm curious what basic concept questions you asked him. thx

10/27/2006 11:57:10 AM

Quote :

"Goddamnit! You print two pages--you just put the two pages on ONE SHEET OF QUALITY PAPER! You get the best of both worlds. And I don't give a shit what "crayon" says, the primary purpose of a cover letter--if one is needed and included--is to get the hiring official to LOOK at the resume."

I've got to disagree with both points here. When I screen applications, I always look at the resumes first, because they are a nicely formatted slate of basic info that lets you quickly and coarsely separate most of the chaff from the wheat. If a resume looks promising, I'll then go back to their cover letter--at this point, the main things I look for in the cover letter are (a) good prose communications skills and eloquence, (b) evidence that the candidate understands something about the job/company and has done some homework beyond just scanning job titles on career websites, and (c) a better sense of the candidate's demeanor than I can glean from a resume (does he focus on elaborating on his wonderful accomplishments? does he focus on what he wants to get out of the job and what he brings to the table beyond what he's done in the past? can I tell if he is looking for a career here, or is he just using this job as a stepping stone? etc).

And while I wouldn't just chuck a two-page resume that's double-sided on a single sheet of paper, it would make me do a double-take. Might be an attention getter, but probably not a good one... resumes are often copied and distributed to multiple readers, and since it's not a standard/accepted practice in most business places, it would be very easy for the second page to get overlooked when copying and cause confusion. Maybe that says something about the general competence of the people screening resumes if that happened, but hey, it's still a fact of life.

10/27/2006 4:32:38 PM

I'm amazed at how much of this is common sense.

Things like:
- Never flat out lie and never overstate your knowledge
- Do a little research
- Confidence and assertiveness count

It's basic bull-slinging.

10/27/2006 4:35:44 PM

My position on the cover letter comes from (1) years of hiring and job-searching experience. And (2) the strict advice from one of my English professors, Dr. Robert J. Stubblefield. He is a published author and teaches Business Communication-ENG 304 at North Carolina Wesleyan College, among other courses.

I want to emphasize that I am talking about (1) a traditional resume delivered on paper. But the same principle may apply to many electronically submitted resumes, too. And (2) that a cover letter is desired by or has been specifically requested by the potential employers. Okay?

First, what are hiring officials most likely to see first? The cover letter, of course. If said hiring officials do not like what they see on the cover letter, the RESUME will never be read. That is why one should continually and interestingly reference the resume in the cover letter--think of it as getting to second base if that helps.

Second, of course one will "flesh out" certain points about one's education, experience, and training more in the cover letter--it is a letter, for God's sake! As opposed to a document filled with bulleted comments concerning one's professional life, however, the cover letter can and should be more focused to highlight and explain targeted areas of the resume.

Third, the following is the definition of cover letter from Dictionary.com: "a letter that accompanies another letter, a package, or the like, to explain, commend, etc." Just let me have this one, okay? Trust me--I'm right. And this time, at least, we may all benefit from me being right.

10/28/2006 1:55:59 AM

i had to get an unofficial copy of my transcript to get the grade I am at.

10/28/2006 4:59:09 PM

I saw a resume that had 4 pages...and there was even a chart in it...

10/28/2006 5:36:36 PM

^ It was probably a chart of how many combos said applicant had been "upselling" from medium to large.

10/29/2006 1:36:52 AM

What's everyone's stance on writing samples? Is this a fairly new requirement when it comes to job hirings? I'm applying for an internship next summer w/ ExxonMobil. When you upload a document, they have a pulldown menu to describe what the document concerns. While they don't mention anywhere you have to include a writing sample with your resume/cover letter/transcripts, I'm including one for the hell of it.

Are writing samples usually reserved for college grads who will be submitting a copy of a published thesis? I'll be submitting a coop work report...

[Edited on October 29, 2006 at 5:23 PM. Reason : goddamnit p]

10/29/2006 5:20:44 PM

I take my portfolio with me to interviews but I've also emailed writing samples to my interviewer afterwards.

10/29/2006 7:33:59 PM

I have a nearly 20 page philosophy research paper thats going to be published in the URJ in the spring. I should just haul that around with me to interviews.

10/31/2006 11:43:21 AM

^What's it about?

10/31/2006 1:10:00 PM

Quote :

"- The people who put Windows, Word, Excel, Access,etc. on their resume did so because they didn't have any legitimate technical skills. I called two out on having Access. They figured that it was part of office and no one would bring it up, but none of them had actually ever used it. no hire."

I know how to use access!! I wish I had to interview with you....I put it on my resume! But, my
jobs are non technical!!

10/31/2006 1:33:54 PM

Your resume is not your entire history of your life. It's a brief representation of you and things your have accomplished in your career and life. It's only to be used for you to get your foot in the door. Your “Cover Letter” is actually read more than the resume and is a good summary of you.

My resume is 2 pages and the first page has most of the important stuff including a brief summary of what I am looking for and of myself. Most managers flip through a resume by looking at key points such as skills, job history such as length, companies worked for, projects, etc. and then schooling. Make it as easy to read as possible but professional and try to keep it short but sweet and skew it towards the job you are applying for. Present key areas that are related to the job that would spark an interest for an interview.

Most managers rarely read them and if they were to read anything it would be the cover letter. If they deem you as a candidate for the job then you just filtered down say 100 possible candidates to maybe 10 for the job that would get interviewed. I know this because I’ve filtered job applicants for my managers many a times and been the interviewee as well as the interviewer.

The interview is more important IMO. If you come prepared, well dressed, and with a portfolio and can speak whole sentences without having empty air space in between you can usually get the job. The portfolio is where you can go more in to detail about yourself…such as accomplishments like Presidential/ Dean’s List, awards, or screen shots of something you made such as a program.

The candidates I have interviewed I was most impressed with are those that come in with confidence. Can answer almost all questions long enough or satisfactorily enough to deem them capable of fulfilling the job. And those that come prepared.

I’ve worked for several large companies and most do not care about your school you went to but your experience and what you have done recently that make you most noteworthy and remember able after the interview.

Lastly relax and good luck. Think of it like asking someone out for the first time...nerve racking at first but then you get the hang of it and understand it's just a stepping stone in your life of your career. What's really hard is deciding on accepting an offer and counteroffering...that's hard to do but stick to your guns!

10/31/2006 2:48:14 PM

Quote :

""- The people who put Windows, Word, Excel, Access,etc. on their resume did so because they didn't have any legitimate technical skills. I called two out on having Access. They figured that it was part of office and no one would bring it up, but none of them had actually ever used it. no hire.""

I have this on my resume. It was only a line and I figured it wasn't that important, so I almost took it off - then I recently had an interview where the interviewer said: "Good, glad to see you know how to use word and power point." And the interviewer actually meant it. I was surprised - considering this was for a software development position, I figured knowing how to use office was required.

10/31/2006 4:30:01 PM

^Sounds like a lame interviewer and company.

10/31/2006 7:11:43 PM

Even though I'm sure it's expected, I'm not going to take my computer skills/competency off my resume because of what someone said on a message board.

10/31/2006 7:47:11 PM

Quote :

""Good, glad to see you know how to use word and power point." "

Was there sarcasm involved?

10/31/2006 8:08:26 PM

must be hard reading a few more words of that post eh?!?!?! see, that was sarcasm.

10/31/2006 8:15:22 PM

I don't understand. Wouldn't it be easy to read a few more words of the post.

10/31/2006 8:46:26 PM

Quote :

"bullshit--- Unless you have cured cancer or have some extraordinary circumstance(example: not another recent college graduate), you should not have a resume more than one page."

This is not a standard practice. You would be surprised at the number of undergraduates who have had 4+ internships, in which case they would easily go over page 1.

When I interned at a IT headhunter's office last summer length was of no concern EXCEPT when a candidate was attempting to pad their resume. As long as the work was professional work and not that they were the head of key club in High School going over page one or two was legit.


[Edited on November 1, 2006 at 10:12 AM. Reason : .]

11/1/2006 10:11:51 AM

Being someone who actually now reviews resumes- I have to say, limit the amount of information you put into your first job's resume.

if you want to send me yours I would be happy to take a look and offer advice.

11/1/2006 4:14:32 PM

I may take you up on that once I update mine.

11/1/2006 4:34:49 PM

^^Nice.

11/2/2006 12:41:22 PM

I'm eyeing a new job. I currently have three, but job #2 (9hrs/wk)has me job hunting, and I won't continue to work that one. Job #3 (3.75hrs/wk) fills space between two classes, and job #1 (6hrs/wk) is one evening a week (if that) and maybe 6-15 hours on weekends over the course of a month.

I'm thinking that for a PT semi-professional (compared to my current jobs) job (12hrs/wk) I'm going for, I can drop my HS/freshman year of college retail job in order to fit job #3 onto my resume, and keep everything to one page.

Yes/no/your two cents?

1/29/2007 3:35:37 PM

The reason why perfectly good people "overstate their knowledge" on a resume is because it's one of the main drivers of success once you get the job.

I'd wager that at least 7 outta 10 people in high-ranking positions got there not by their knowledge, but what they were able to BS their way through.

So it makes sense to BS up your resume a bit.

1/29/2007 3:38:23 PM

Mine is 1.5 pages now

It goes:
Name
Professional Experience
Education

I've cut it down to the essentials on all full-time and conulting jobs of real importance (post-grad only), but I leave them all on there for the wow factor.

If you have anything other than that you're wasting the hiring manager's time.

[Edited on January 30, 2007 at 1:06 PM. Reason : ff]

1/30/2007 1:05:10 PM

Quote :

" I'm thinking that for a PT semi-professional (compared to my current jobs) job (12hrs/wk) I'm going for, I can drop my HS/freshman year of college retail job in order to fit job #3 onto my resume, and keep everything to one page. Yes/no/your two cents?"

If the retail job is a generic job that has no relevancy to professionalism or the job you're pursuing (sales associate at Hot Topic) then yes, drop it. I've dropped my Andy's job from my resume and my Lowe's Delivery job because even though I did well in both they have no relevancy really.

1/30/2007 1:48:49 PM

why bother trying to add one accent on the last "e", if you are going to leave it off the first.

1/30/2007 2:36:41 PM

bttt

6/15/2008 9:08:02 PM

If you have enough to fill 2-3 pages on a resume, I think it's time to start thinking about what is genuinely important to the position you want. There are MANY people who hand me multiple page resumes.... but they're usually boring, and include information that only your mama would care about.

Keep it consise & simple... At the age of most of the people on this board (notice *most*) anything beyond the first page is simply filler to make you feel special. If you graduated college, I don't care if you were part of the FFA in high school.

Please.... save both of us the time. And BTW - please don't lie. It's really uncomfortable for everyone involved.

6/15/2008 11:55:27 PM

Take your resume to a job fair, and when you hand it to the people look at what they circle. A few times in my earlier interviews they would just look through and tell me point blank that they don't care about this and this, or that they liked this. After the first couple redo it to emphasize useful stuff and nix the meh stuff, or shorten it. My biggie was I had a bunch of classes listed that had anything to do with my degree, which I just cut down to the 400's I chose, instead of typing out that I took calculus, statistics, java and such. I replaced them with more details from my one job as a TA in college, which was always talked about in interviews. Or you could go get it critiqued.

6/16/2008 12:15:03 AM

I've always heard 1. Mine is one, but I don't have a TON of job experience or internships, etc. But I was about to be 1.5 pages, and my former manager at IBM said just extend the margins..saying, "DO NOT GO OVER ONE PAGE." So I dunno. Blah.

6/16/2008 1:24:08 AM

This thread has prompted me to try to shrink my resume down.

Now I'm summarizing what skills/experience I was exposed to at each job and then providing a one or two sentence summary of what the job basically consisted of and why it was beneficial/why I felt like mentioning it.

I think this will let me cut out all the tedious bullshit that is taking up space like how I restocked boxes and such at one job and will let me mention the more important stuff like how I put together a proposal for a computer service department.

I think that it removes the clutter and makes it easier for them to pick out the information. I'm still going to add in something about my activities and such, if I can. I'm also going to bullet out any basic skills or design experience I have, as with a CE degree it's not easy to tell what courses I have taken.

How does this mesh with the cranky HR people who have posted in here so far? Would something like this that easily highlights what I've done be preferred to the standard "four bullets of crap" layout suggested to us in E101?

6/16/2008 1:39:17 AM

My CV is almost 4 pages at this point.

My resumes are 1 pagers, always. And yes you should have multiple resumes unless you are pigeon-holed into a single industry position.

For each position I've ever applied to, I've also spent another 30 minutes or so making sure the resume fit the job description and qualifications, to keep it pertinent and targeted.

To people who have a "one resume to rule them all": hiring managers can tell this immediately. Just like the cover letter, you should put the time and effort into your resume as well.

Just be glad most of you don't have to put together a portfolio as well. There's 4-6 months of full time work putting one together, and a week or more for each job that wants it in a different format or different focus.

6/16/2008 3:17:31 AM

Quote :

"Well cut some stuff out, or something."

not if it's relevant to the job/school you're applying to.

6/16/2008 6:14:11 AM

just finished updating mine and it was 1.5 pages

none of it's filler and i even extended the margins to try to keep it on one page

To keep my resume on one page, I would have had to leave out one of my work experiences and all of them were relevant to the job I was applying to.

Under education, I used only two lines listing relevant 400+ level in major courses and technical engineering electives I took.

Under education, I also included a short two bullet point explanation of my senior design project and the student reactor operator training class I took. I'm applying to an operator job so i figured both were relevant.



I sent my resume to the Operations Manager last Tuesday and he hasn't responded yet. How long should I wait to talk to him? How should I approach him and what should I say (something like "did you get a chance to look over my resume?") I currently work as an engineering intern at the plant where I am applying for the operations job. Should I e-mail him again or walk over to his office?

[Edited on June 16, 2008 at 7:35 AM. Reason : yo]

6/16/2008 7:34:17 AM

Quote :

"Under education, I used only two lines listing relevant 400+ level in major courses and technical engineering elective I took. Under education, I also included a short two bullet point explanation of my senior design project and the student reactor operator training class I took. I'm applying to an operator job so i figured both were relevant."

In my very limited experience of applying for summer internships, I'm usually asked stuff like this during the interview if they're interested. Just a thought if you're trying to cut it down.

6/16/2008 7:44:18 AM

Quote :

" To people who have a "one resume to rule them all": hiring managers can tell this immediately. Just like the cover letter, you should put the time and effort into your resume as well."

This is usually a good sign of if the person just wants A job, or wants the job you are offering. Good point worth mentioning.

I had a girl - about 2 months ago - hand me a resume with all her journalist background info, and on the formal application listed all of her sales experience. She outright said "I can change the resume if it matters".... My question was why she would have EVER handed me a non relevant resume in the first place.
Meh?!?

6/16/2008 11:34:28 AM

you should have asked why she handed that to you

6/16/2008 11:40:32 AM

Fear not - I did

6/16/2008 11:46:00 AM

Quote :

"I sent my resume to the Operations Manager last Tuesday and he hasn't responded yet. How long should I wait to talk to him again? How should I approach him and what should I say (something like "did you get a chance to look over my resume?") I currently work as an engineering intern at the plant where I am applying for the operations job. Should I e-mail him again or walk over to his office? (his office is in the building next to the building I am in)"

just reposting my question because it will soon get buried by other posts

6/16/2008 12:22:40 PM

^I think you should shoot him an email probably tomorrow (after it's been a week) and say something like "Just wanted to make sure you got my resume. I'm really interested in the job and welcome any opportunity to meet with you to further discuss what I could offer [company name]."

I should write courtesy notes for people for a living. hah.

6/16/2008 3:12:25 PM