Quote :

"humandrive: If there are physical differences why would there not be mental differences? Really explain why there would be no differences?"

Those physical differences that we notice between the "races" are controlled by a very small number of genes, and the differences are not nearly as significant as society has made them. To be clear, a tall white man likely would have more in common genetically with a tall black man than he would a short white man. Junk DNA (mtDNA?) that is passed on but not expressed can be used to reliably determine a person's ancestry and thus their "race," but again, that's DNA, not genes.

This is my very basic understanding of race and genetics, and for me, it's enough to lay the "mental differences" debate to rest. People in the genetics field come out with new discoveries every day, and it's tough to undersand and keep up with it. Probably one of the more frustrating things I've encountered are people who misrespresent their information with the knowledge that most people can't call them out on it because they don't know much about genetics.

Quote :

"McDanger: I'm not even making any valuations about who has the "better" brain. I'm just saying that if we see tons of other physical differences, why is intelligence (or even conditional intelligence) suddenly off limits to study and discussion? OH MY GAWRSH SOMEBODY MIGHT GET SAD"

You know why "race" and "intelligence" are off limits. And it doesn't have much to do with people getting sad. 1) We're not even sure how we want to define intelligence. 2) The "Then what?" factor. What if we discovered that Asians are smarter than blacks, and blacks are smarter than whites...what would we do with that information? How would it benefit us? I don't want to be forcibly sterilized...do you? 3) There have been so many racist "scientists" that have straight lied to reach the conclusions they want and, to a lesser extent, believe are right. Nobody wants to be lumped in with those fuckers. Why focus and race/intelligence when you could focus on race/medicine? 4) Also most scientists believe there are no mental differences...so why would they want to study that?

Quote :

"Prawn Star: Read "The Bell Curve" if you really want to get into it. Sure, it's a racially insensitive book by nature, but the research and analysis is very solid."

They fucked up so bad with that book that I can't trust what's inside. The book and research were partially funded by a racist "science" group; some of the research was done by people who favored eugenics. One of the authors had a background in political science, not psychology. And nevermind that the book itself comes off as pop science--a bunch of simple and intriguing conclusions for the average white man to read on the toilet and feel valiated by.

11/21/2006 4:12:18 PM

Quote :

"To be clear, a tall white man likely would have more in common genetically with a tall black man than he would a short white man. "

This is just not true. It is hard to take your arguments seriously when you post stuff like this.

11/21/2006 6:08:29 PM

The book "The Bell Curve" has been debunked several times. I don't think anyone considers it actual science.

11/21/2006 6:18:20 PM

point taken.

However, the "genetic argument" that racial differences don't exist is laughable, and represents one of the most clear-cut examples of people believing what they want to believe when it suits their ideals, despite the obvious evidence to the contrary all around them.

11/21/2006 6:26:29 PM

It's not that it doesn't exist, it just doesn't exist in the form people think it exists. Genetically, people look VERY, VERY similar. Skin color is a pretty insignificant factor of our genes, but a big factor in how we perceive other people.

Take tiger woods for example, why is he commonly considered black instead of thai (which his mother is)? A researcher looking at Tiger Wood's genes would be more likely to peg him as some type of asian than as a black person. And most people don't have "pure" lineage, so picking a label based on their skin color or the nebulous term of "race" is pretty retarded when talking about things like genetics. It's retarded in every other sense too, but society has been built around the social construct of race (which should more aptly be called skin color the way it's used), and it shouldn't be views as anything more than that for the purposes of policy. Culture is a different issue though, which is far more concrete than race.

I wouldn't be surprised if most Americans today had some native american ancestry. I read somewhere that most Europeans have some middle-east ancestry. And Native Americans are supposedly the distant relatives of the people of China. Basically, we are all good and mixed up, and becoming more and more mixed up as time goes on (and people become less "racist").

[Edited on November 21, 2006 at 6:38 PM. Reason : ]

11/21/2006 6:34:17 PM

Race is based on a lot more than just skin color, as anyone can see. When looking at populations of races, clear patterns emerge which cannot be explained by cultural or societal effects.

11/21/2006 7:14:56 PM

Quote :

"Prawn Star: This is just not true. It is hard to take your arguments seriously when you post stuff like this."

No, it is true. The genes that determine height are more complicated and greater in number than those that determine the few qualities that society uses to determine race. So, yes, a tall black man would likely have more in common genetically with a tall white man than he would a short black man.

Quote :

"Prawn Star: Race is based on a lot more than just skin color, as anyone can see. When looking at populations of races, clear patterns emerge which cannot be explained by cultural or societal effects."

People have tackled this issue countless times. And every study leads to the same conclusion: So what? One study says whites are slightly less intelligent than Asians...so what?

[Edited on November 21, 2006 at 8:32 PM. Reason : sss]

11/21/2006 8:25:49 PM

I think the AZNs would take Tiger Woods in the racial draft

11/21/2006 8:27:16 PM

^ Dude, the blacks got him with the first overall.... get with the program!

People throughout all of history have tried to categorize certain cultures and races as "smarter" or "better." This hs happened to women, blacks, Native Americans, etc. This list goes on. To my knowledge none of it has ever been validated.

Take a hint. We're all in the same boat. Who the fuck cares about our skin tone?

11/21/2006 11:13:01 PM

To what bridget said, and I will post the evidence following lunch, race really has very little to do with genetic commonality. There are studies that prove that some groups in africa are more closely realted genetically to nords than other groups in africa.

Additionally, to tackle the subject of physical differences, a lot of that has to do with phenotype. To use that as a factor to assume mental differences is retarded. Phenotypes differ within the white race, would you say that those with big noses and tall are more intelligent than those who are short and have small noses, no.

11/22/2006 12:58:56 PM

^I thought that's what I said.

11/22/2006 4:20:42 PM

^it was all implied, I wanted to make it explicit. Which reminds me I need to find that study.

11/22/2006 4:34:56 PM

^^^Intelligence is a phenotype and it is a physical difference... We have a very limited understanding of genetics. To assert that intelligence is linked to "race" or is not is silly, we simply don't know enough. And there are a lot more physical differences between "races" that just skin color... An albino african or southeast asian would never be mistaken as being european now would they?

We know hardly anything about human genetics, and what we think is true changes everday. Article below basically says that individual genomes are about 3 times more different from others that we originally thought.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2466842,00.html

11/22/2006 7:10:34 PM

^

Given that intelligence can be observed using tests, I guess I could see it as a phenotype. But really don't see your albino comment as being necessary. I never asserted that skin color was the only difference. It was made clear by me, and others, that phenotype trait differences are clearly expressed. The point I was making was that its dumb to say that intelligence differs between races based on genetic variance. The was emphasised by the point that a nord is more closely related genetically to some africans than some european groups and vis versa.

11/22/2006 8:02:40 PM