So did they fix the pixel falling issue?

I would imagine so... but my dads early gen 42" Sony plasma he has at work has all kinds of pixel that have drooped to the bottom of the screen...

I'd worry about that more than Burn in...

11/29/2006 9:40:50 PM

Quote :

"Dude Before get completely fucking owned. and I mean really compeletely fucking owned Lets go ahead and establish that you are, in fact, claiming that an expensive cable provides better quality digital picture."

I can't imagine that a company selling a cable for $450 would even still be in business if the cable made no difference whatsoever over a $17 one... The fact of the matter is - it does make a difference. Let me tell you why. (I'm sure you'll tell me this is a load of crap, and we'll go back to the "is the difference worth it" story, yada, yada, yada, but I'll explain it anyway)

When digital signals are transferred, they are indeed as simple as "1"'s and "0"'s. From the limited knowledge I have of circuits, the way a zero or a one is perceived at the other end is based on the voltage on the line. The cable's impedence (or lack thereof) is what will ultimately determine said voltage over a given length. Typically, a lesser quality cable will have either a higher impedence, or an impedence that does not necessarily fall within the accepted standards of the protocol being transferred.

Now, here's where the quality of the transfer comes into play. It is true, to the best of my knowledge, that every digital device has some sort of error correction built-in - they almost have to, as a perfect transfer would indicate the ideal world (a world that does not exist). When a signal finds its way to the end of the path, and it is not correct for whatever reason, error correction kicks in. This correction not only slows down the processing of all the other signals, but sometimes may not be correct (ironic enough as it may seem).

Thus, the argument can absolutely be made that a higher end cable (with less impedence, or proper impedence, either way) will yield a better result to the end user (which is analog anyway you look at it)

...and I didn't get that from Tweeter.

11/29/2006 9:45:14 PM

you have been sold a product and bought into it.



i believe the cable shielding is more important than the impedance on a digital signal.
this however isn't true with an analog signal.

11/29/2006 9:49:04 PM

There is not a large enough buffer implemented so there is no time window for retransmission to occur. The entire point of TMDS signaling was for cheap cabling to be a priority. Once a bit is lost, its gone and wont get a "call me back" request. Sparkle Sparkle

the more you know *shooting star*

[Edited on November 29, 2006 at 9:54 PM. Reason : .]

11/29/2006 9:53:30 PM

^^^ Say you buy a no-name cable from cables-to-go or something. If 100% of the data transmitted over it is received and processed, then how is a $450 cable going to make a difference. You're assuming that off-brand cables automatically mean that you'll end up with lost bits. This MAY be true on long runs if the off-brand cable is also crappy. Generally though, there's no way for a consumer to justify paying 100+ bucks on a cable.

[Edited on November 29, 2006 at 9:54 PM. Reason : ]

11/29/2006 9:54:05 PM

I just want it on the record that im not endorsing cables from big lots and dollar tree. Im endorsing a 6ft monoprice cable.

If you want a 100$ audio interconnect thats fine. I just dont think its necessary to spend 100$ for an HDMI cable.

11/29/2006 9:58:11 PM

Yeah, obviously there are crappy off-brand cables as well as good off-brand cables, but if it's decently shielded and actually meets specs it'll look exactly the same pretty much all the time as a 100-400 dollar rip-off cable.

11/29/2006 10:01:00 PM

Quote :

"i believe the cable shielding is more important than the impedance on a digital signal. this however isn't true with an analog signal."

...and how do you think digital signals are transferred?

11/29/2006 10:02:02 PM

Quote :

"If you want a 100$ audio interconnect thats fine. I just dont think its necessary to spend 100$ for an HDMI cable. "

Why one cable and not the other? Do all cables not simply carry electrons from point A to point B?

[Edited on November 29, 2006 at 10:05 PM. Reason : .]

11/29/2006 10:05:06 PM

the audio interconnect would not be carrying differential signals over twisted pair. so no its not the same.

11/29/2006 10:05:48 PM

not taking a side on this, just wanted to see if there was going to be a place/time for the test. wouldn't mind seeing that in person.

11/29/2006 10:05:52 PM

i would really like to. i would offer my place, but dont want to drag consumer level shit into the debate. we're going high end or the highway!

11/29/2006 10:08:04 PM

and not to take this thing off topic or anything, but what exactly is wrong with 1080p DLP tvs? This one in particular?

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-HL-S5687W-1080p-DLP-HDTV/dp/B000F2P2XI/sr=8-1/qid=1164856162/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-9550047-9544466?ie=UTF8&s=electronics

I mean for the price, isn't this the best "bang for your buck"?

11/29/2006 10:11:10 PM

for that size? go for it. check reviews out first though to make sure that model doesn't have any odd quirks or bulb issues. also make sure the warranty is decent.

11/29/2006 10:13:12 PM

Quote :

"...and how do you think digital signals are transferred?"

digital = on/off in squenced patterns

analog = a voltage of 4.83V is a different signal from a voltage of 4.42V usually through a range of 0-5 or 0-10 volts..

11/29/2006 10:18:41 PM

Quote :

"analog = a voltage of 4.83V is a different signal from a voltage of 4.42V usually through a range of 0-5 or 0-10 volts.."

You are right. But to a "digital" receiver, how would you say a 2.01V signal is perceived when on=4V and off=0V? I would venture to guess that error correction would have to kick in...

11/29/2006 10:26:06 PM

ok so Emag transmission lines aren't the easiest thing in the world to understand...

but keep in mind "digital" is still a signal being sent down a wire... square waves are sinusoids built on each other...

still sinusoids... still have to make it down the wire... dielectric still matters... but twisted pair relies on the number of twists on 2 copper wires to actually maintain the relation... its done with teh actual e and h fields...

the purpose of twisted pair is common mode noise rejection... makes life easy... DSL is implemented on twisted pair...

... ah fsck it I don't feel like putting thought into this...

but twisted pair is hard to screw up...

and differential signaling is usually a swing of under 1v on a common mode point... TDMS is the encoding scheme which can essentially be considered an error correction method...


[Edited on November 29, 2006 at 10:36 PM. Reason : your a sales person arguing with engineers... ]

11/29/2006 10:32:16 PM

Again, I think we're getting a little off topic here.

Quinn, you wanna test me - fine. I'm not buying a cable to prove my point - that's on you.

SandSanta, I understand your argument that digital is one's and zero's, but it's a little more complicated than that. Dr. Tildon Glisson, Dr. Hatice Orun Ozturk and Dr. David Bradley convinced me a long time ago that it's more complicated than that...

Stein, none of the information you gave me can be found in an owner's manual, and therefore is not meant for end-user knowledge. Maybe a white screen here and there, but the true service menus are not accessible to the end user without research beyond the provided means.

Stein, your alusion to the fact that all salespeople are out to sell things that consumers don't need solely for the purpose of personal gain tells a lot about you. I sincerely hope that was a cheap stab meant to spark a reaction from your friends on the board. If not, you have quite a bit of growing up to do..

goFigure, thank you. Are you an Electrical Engineer?

Aficionado, again - sorry for the nerve.

Kiwi, buy whatever makes you happy. Spend as little or as much as you're comfortable with. I still think you should talk with a trained salesperson, as long as you're honest with him/her about your budget, expectations, etc.

11/29/2006 10:35:04 PM

Quote :

"I still think you should talk with a trained salesperson"

sales people don't know crap other than what the vendors spoon feed them...

I mean you can walk into a high end place and typically grill a sales person into tears...

anybody can quote stuff... but knowing "when it matters" is something that they usually can't tell

[Edited on November 29, 2006 at 10:45 PM. Reason : I've sold stuff and done plenty of shopping]

11/29/2006 10:40:40 PM

Quote :

"sales people don't know crap other than what the vendors spoon feed them..."

Please don't convince everyone here that that is actually the scenario. I will say that about 99% of salespeople fall into your stereotype, but there are some that will put you in your place.

While I was a salesman at Tweeter, I often had my knowledge challenged, and I was sometimes wrong, but 5 years of Electrical Engineering put me in a place to argue with the best of them, I don't care what anyone says. Sure, there's a level of bullshit that goes into any aspect of life, especially sales, but I make my living off of repeat business, and if I steer someone wrong for immediate personal gain, how sucessful do you think I'm going to be?

It's fun to fuck with salesmen - I know - I do it myself all the time. My wife won't talk to them at all - she sends me to buy anything we ever purchase. All I suggest is that you be willing to accept the fact that there are people out there that know more about it than you do, and your salesman may very well be one of those people Probably isn't, but it's possible...

11/29/2006 10:51:11 PM

Budget depends on how much I save. I'm looking at the 15 hundred to 2k end on a 42" plasma which I know can happen. I want a tv that looks crips, not with those fuzzy lines some of them have. I want vivid colors. I want a tv that will last a while this is not a purchase I can make every two years.

Advice!

11/29/2006 10:52:03 PM

Quote :

"Stein, none of the information you gave me can be found in an owner's manual, and therefore is not meant for end-user knowledge. Maybe a white screen here and there, but the true service menus are not accessible to the end user without research beyond the provided means."

Maybe that's because the service menus aren't meant for the end-user? I'm trying to figure out your point. You said it requires "proprietary software and interfaces" to access the service menu which is completely and utterly incorrect.

You've also yet to explain why it is my plasma is only "reputable" and not reputable in your eyes.

Quote :

"Stein, your alusion to the fact that all salespeople are out to sell things that consumers don't need solely for the purpose of personal gain tells a lot about you. I sincerely hope that was a cheap stab meant to spark a reaction from your friends on the board. If not, you have quite a bit of growing up to do.."

Dude, you're trying to sell people a $450 cable, which you can't in any way justify. Tell me why that particular cable is so much better.

On top of that, in another thread you were talking about how you'd rather sell one expensive TV rather than a bunch of cheap ones just because it makes you more money. So don't try and tell me you're not going to try and sell people the most expensive thing they'll buy.

11/29/2006 10:56:22 PM

Quote :

"You've also yet to explain why it is my plasma is only "reputable" and not reputable in your eyes."

I was quoting myself. Sorry for the confusion.

Quote :

"Dude, you're trying to sell people a $450 cable, which you can't in any way justify. Tell me why that particular cable is so much better."

I'm not trying to sell anyone on this board a $450 cable. I simply used it in the second half of the argument about how a $70 cable was not that expensive, relatively. Again, thanks for taking my words out of context.

Quote :

"On top of that, in another thread you were talking about how you'd rather sell one expensive TV rather than a bunch of cheap ones just because it makes you more money. So don't try and tell me you're not going to try and sell people the most expensive thing they'll buy."

You're very good at using one's words against them. As a commissioned salesman, why in the name of anything Holy would anyone assume responsibility for "30" plasmas (I'm quoting myself, in case you were wondering...) instead of "1" (again, quoting myself), when the one pays more than the thirty combined? Before you tell me that I'm being a self-centered salesman, why don't you try and convince me that the Pioneer Elite plasma doesn't look leagues beyond anything Panasonic has even tried to come out with? You might be surprised to know that many people that come in because of the ads in the paper for Black Friday are simply unaware of the nicer products, and are more than willing to purchase the higher quality goods. I guess if your argument was true, the world would stop developing newer, better technologies because they cost more and the cost cannot be afforded or justified by anyone...

11/29/2006 11:09:50 PM

and I hate UNC...

11/29/2006 11:15:01 PM

Quote :

"Please don't convince everyone here that that is actually the scenario. I will say that about 99% of salespeople fall into your stereotype, but there are some that will put you in your place."

to be fair you suggested she talk to a salesman, which you then said had a 99% chance of not knowing shit.

that and you are obviously trying to sell a 450 cable to someone. maybe not her, but enough ppl for it to happen often. i cant imagine that many people truly need it. bringing up a completely unnecessary cable as comparison doesnt really justify other consumer cables being 70 bucks. back to the car analogy. why not get a mercedes instead of a honda. sure it is expensive, but not in comparison to the lambo.

11/29/2006 11:33:55 PM

Quote :

"to be fair you suggested she talk to a salesman, which you then said had a 99% chance of not knowing shit."

To be fair, this is much more specifically, verbatim how I worded it. Please read the following quote (quoting myself, for those of you that aren't following along...) with just the slightest emphasis on the word "knowledgeable"...

Quote :

"However, I might recommend that you find a knowledgeable salesman to speak with at a locally owned specialty store, preferably one that is paid a commission (despite the stereotype, a commissioned salesman has no desire to sell you something you're not going to be happy with)."

11/29/2006 11:56:04 PM

Quote :

"Budget depends on how much I save. I'm looking at the 15 hundred to 2k end on a 42" plasma which I know can happen. I want a tv that looks crips, not with those fuzzy lines some of them have. I want vivid colors. I want a tv that will last a while this is not a purchase I can make every two years. Advice!"

11/30/2006 12:04:24 AM

Basic point

In a 1m max distance an expensive cable has no real advantage over an inexpensive one and the only reason you're selling 450$ cables is because people are dumb enough to buy them or have enough money not to care.

The only time I'd buy a good cable is if I was running some distance and worried about outside interference.

11/30/2006 12:15:51 AM

no test? i mean 1m of cable? $450 v. $17 dollar cables? Again, not taking sides on who is right here, but I would really like to see this with my own eyes. And I'm not trying to bust balls here customwired, but if you're selling these $450 cables, can't we just use one that you have? Why would Quinn have to buy a $450 cable to test this out? I'm really interested to see this....

11/30/2006 1:23:50 AM

nobody with a brain wants to foot that 450$ cable purchase.

11/30/2006 1:33:38 AM

Please read the thread before posting. I asked Quinn to purchase a $70 cable, and the $450 cable is 10ft long. Mathematically, that would make the 1M version of that cable a mere $150.

For the record / Officially / OMFG - I sell $450 HDMI cables to those that are purchasing deserving plasmas. I hardly ever sell any cable that is 1M long, as the way I run my wiring (please look at the gallery on my webpage before commenting) almost always requires a 2M cable. Sure, this may cost the client another $50 in cables, but since the systems I sell are often $10K or more, the cost of a better cable (not simply more expensive) is more than reasonable when compared to the overall budget.

If you do not agree with someone selling a higher end product to a client wanting a higher end system, that is your choice. I hold no grudge (well, maybe a small one ). Please don't try to make the argument that regardless of the situation, a $17 cable is just as good as a $450 one. It is not. Can the difference be discerened between you and I - who knows? Does it make certain people feel better to buy something with a name brand for a higher price than the alternative - absolutely. I tell every one of my clients that they can do the same thing for less, but it won't have quite the appeal of the more expensive option. My guess would be that if everyone on this forum that has posted negatively toward my advice and recommendation on cables had enough money to not worry about it, we wouldn't be having this conversation...

11/30/2006 1:44:02 AM

A $450 cable is ridiculous no matter how you cut it. However, some customers want that kind of thing for bragging rights to their friends, and in a case like that, a salesman is not going to argue with them.

Just don't delude yourself in to thinking it's actually $433 better than the $17. In the best case scenario, it's $30 better than the $17 cable. If you look at the cost the manufacture makes the various grades of cables, then compare that to the cost of what they sell the cable for, you will see it's primarily a money-making venture, rather than an image fidelity issue.

And there are rare issues in digital signal transmission (jitter and reflection) that better cables will improve upon, but as I just mentioned, that $450 cable is still a waste of money for that purpose.

11/30/2006 2:29:20 AM

If you knew anything at all about digital signals, you would know Quinn is 100% correct.

Quote :

"You are right. But to a "digital" receiver, how would you say a 2.01V signal is perceived when on=4V and off=0V? I would venture to guess that error correction would have to kick in... "

Digital systems have threshold ranges for converting line voltage into 0's and 1's.

If I am correct, I think HDMI's thresholds are 0-2V for a 0, and 2V-Vcc for a 1. (Pretty sure it is TTL and not CMOS, but even CMOS is 0-Vcc/2 for a 0 and Vcc/2 - Vcc for a 1).

What this means, is there is no difference between 2.25v and 4.5v, they both indicate a 1. I can promise you that any digital system will use GND and Vcc as thier digital signal levels (0v and Vcc respectively) which are so far away from the tolerances that a cable length even of several meters will give 100% transmission, barring any type of external interference (this is where the importance of shielding comes in).

This, as Quinn has stated, is TOTALLY different than analog (like speaker) cables. Where there is a difference between 4.4 and 4.5 volts. That difference has no impact on a digital signal however, which is the beauty of HDMI.

11/30/2006 3:42:22 AM

The cable most certainly matters once we get out to 30 ft and on up (closer to 50ft really), especially if you try and cram 1080p down it. But even the shittiest of Chinese made cables in runs less than 10 ft are going to work flawlessly on respectable source and destination equipment. It's as simple as that.

Mr sales person, your first mistake was dismissing everyone on this website as not knowledgeable without having nary a fucking clue what you were getting into. Sure there are dumb people here, just like dumb salespeople, but when you grouped the smart folks in with them, you fucked up.

11/30/2006 5:14:43 AM

you have to have some Really SHIIIIITTTTTYYYYYY Cable to drop 2-3 volts in 6' with next to no amperage

i mean like "look mah i dipped this yarn in conductive glue and made a cable"

11/30/2006 5:37:08 AM

Quote :

"If I am correct, I think HDMI's thresholds are 0-2V for a 0, and 2V-Vcc for a 1. (Pretty sure it is TTL and not CMOS, but even CMOS is 0-Vcc/2 for a 0 and Vcc/2 - Vcc for a 1)."

you would be correct if this was a <10MHz signal or <1994... but go look up differential signal swing...

lvpecl is a 1.2v swing absolute max...

LVDS is a 1-300mv swing standard...

so with a 300mv swing it becomes more important...

I don't mean to side with the guy... but I'm just saying there is SOME merit to a nicer cable expecially for a 3m length.

11/30/2006 6:46:11 AM

But TDMS is a different flavor of the both of those, and swing wise more closely resembles lvpecl.

11/30/2006 7:38:33 AM

Found the spec for TMDS and you are right, the swing is lower than i thought. For some reason, i thought HDMI/DVI were both LVTTL.

From the spec:

Quote :

"A normal signal swings +780 mV to -780 mV. The minimum positive signal swing is +200 mV and the minimum negative swing is -200 mV (total swing of 400 mV). "

At any rate, the argument is this specific $17 cable versus the $450 cable. I would be willing to bet at 3 meters, in a digital application, there is zero difference between them

[Edited on November 30, 2006 at 8:14 AM. Reason : found the spec]

11/30/2006 8:08:19 AM

my issue is less with his technical discussion and more with his suggestions/arguing at this point.

customwired - i know you said knowledgable. i can read. unfortunately if you, as a customer, arent knowledgable it is difficult to tell that 99% from the 1%.

11/30/2006 8:11:32 AM

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/truthcablesinterconnects.php

and besides monoprice.... try blue jeans cable

11/30/2006 9:25:42 AM

Quote :

"customwired - i know you said knowledgable. i can read. unfortunately if you, as a customer, arent knowledgable it is difficult to tell that 99% from the 1%. "

Fair enough.

Also, I don't recall dismissing anyone's knowledge on this board. I think everyone saw the "newb" posting and decided to take a stab. I'm absolutely certain, however, that someone will go grab a few of the statements that I have made, pul them out of context, assemble them to make the case, and post in just a little bit.

Wolfmarsh, my numbers were examples, not real world data that I went and looked up on the internet to prove my point. I really don't want to continue with this argument, but I am fairly argumentative by nature, and can't stand to see my meanings misconstrued. That being said, you cannot convince me that because a signal is digital, and a cable might be 1M long, that the transmission of signals at a cock speed like that of HDMI is flawless. If that were the case, I think we'd be working on the perpetual motion machine, not $17 HDMI cables... Does it make a difference in the picture? I don't know - I didn't build the plasmas, and I am unfamiliar with where the threshold is before error correction can be detected. I can say, however, that considering I'm looking at a little more than 1 billion colors, and only listening to about 18,000 Hz at best, that I would put a little thought into my video cables...

11/30/2006 10:34:55 AM

^i talked to carl yesterday

i would like to see the test as well (video or something)

11/30/2006 10:39:38 AM

Customwired, just a little clarification that I wanted to know. You are saying that a long(15-20ft) $450 dollar priced cable will be better than a long(15-20ft) $17 cable, but that it only really shows on the really high-end plasmas or other systems? If that's the case, can we setup the test to see that? I don't know if that's what Quinn was arguing too, but I'm really just interested in this test. I could care less who wins, just want to see what people can see, or rather, if you could distinguish between the two cables because that's what Quinn was arguing.

11/30/2006 10:47:30 AM

You are right, lets not argue numbers, because there is only one number that really matters: 450.

It matters because $450 for a video cable is asinine.

11/30/2006 11:01:28 AM

bluejeanscables' comes up alot in cable threads.

the only thing that pisses me off is their hdmi cable page basically uses the fact that since there is no retransmission window in HDMI/DVI in the event of a bit error to justify comparing the cable to that which carrys a purely analog signal.

i think its kind of lame, but im sure their products are fine.

11/30/2006 11:04:22 AM

I hear ya. It is simply to easy to get caught up in cables. One one hand someone spends $$$ for something and they want to believe it is doing the best it can. Cable come along and say hey, this is much better and will do all this amazing crap. The customer who probably hit their spending limit can justify $80 here and there instead of upgrading something else.

If your cables are a major percentage of what you paid for your home theater, just think of what you could have bought with some cheap cables. It all adds up but is easier to fit into the picture. In general cables will give you the least bang for your buck. Buy a $15 dollar HDMI cable instead of a $150 one and use the money for a larger sub or something.

And something like DVD essentials will probably help more than any cable ever could.

11/30/2006 11:35:11 AM

You said this assclown

Quote :

"t just pains me to see someone turn to a resource like this for advice, and the only thing I see is "Buy this really cheap piece of shit - it's the same as all of the "overpriced" pieces of shit you see in a store"

The only thing you see is "buy this really cheap peice of shit and it's the same as the overpriced ones"?

Clearly, you are being a dickhead as no one stated it in that way. Everyone has stated that the difference between a $17 cable and a $450 is nil, ESPECIALLY over the type of cable lengths we are talking, which is what really matters here. You're the shit for brains that got all fucked up on this point in the first place. We probably would have let it slide had you limited your argument to long cable runs might benefit from a better quality cable. Of course, we would have claimed it doesn't have to be a $450 variety, but at the very least, you wouldn't have come off as the "holier than thou I know all and you should listen to me" salesman that you came off in this thread. I'll put multiple Yen on Quinn handing you your ass in a gift wrapped plasma TV case with HDMI ribbon on top when it comes to this subject matter - which is mainly why he challenged you.

I hope this pisses you off. And I hope you huff and puff and take your pro audio/video knowledge back to where it came from, which is a place we don't give a shit about, and we certainly don't need it here.

11/30/2006 11:50:02 AM

Dont get me wrong if i was convinced by a customer they wanted a 450$ cable, i wouldnt go out of my way to stop them.

11/30/2006 4:24:04 PM

Blind Hate,

I'm not sure what I did to deserve the overly verbose lashing you just broke out on me. I appreciate you reiterating the initial argument that I've tried to bring back into view multiple times in this thread. All I've been trying to say is that a more expensive cable should at the very least be considered. No one has to buy it, and I never once encouraged a single person on this board to buy anything for $450 - not even the plasma itself.

On another note, Blind Hate, if you can't be remotely civil and even attempt to have a mature conversation with someone, it's going to make it very difficult to credit anything you say. I realize that it might seem like I'm just trying to barge in and impose my "holier than thou" viewpoint on everyone, but that's really not my position. I am very aware that there are plenty of people out there that know more about many things than I do, and I've even aluded to this earlier in this thread.

I apologize, once again, for anything I said that took you to the level of hatred you apparently now have for me. That doesn't change the fact that I think your opinions and words towards me are not only childish and immature, but uninformed as well.

11/30/2006 9:44:52 PM

test? let's work this out!

11/30/2006 9:49:16 PM