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5/11/2007 10:17:11 AM

Quote :

"Without innoculations or mom's breast milk for maternal antibodies/defenses that babies need their first 6 months, the little sucker probably would have died with his first cold."

Just FYI, kids don't need inoculations to survive...

5/11/2007 11:31:51 AM

Hence the "or mom's breast milk for maternal antibodies/defenses." Babies do need one or the other.

5/11/2007 11:54:57 AM

There is nothing wrong with Vegans. If they don't want to eat meat or anything that comes from animals thats fine by me. All that means is more meat and cheese for me.

5/11/2007 12:05:48 PM

^^not necessarily, babies do get some immunity from the mother that wears off somewhere around 9months, that comes through the placenta. So you wouldn't have to breastfeed to give your baby immunity. besides the baby wouldn't be old enough for immunizations, the first sets are usually given around 2 months.

[Edited on May 11, 2007 at 12:11 PM. Reason : .]

5/11/2007 12:11:13 PM

I think we have to admit this is pretty much just for the courts to figure out. There's potentially a lot of mitigating factors here.

- they may have intentionally given the kid soymilk instead of formula, trying to kill it under a "we're vegan" excuse

-they may have honestly misunderstood the difference between forumla and soymilk or thought it was negligible

-they might have mistakenly relied on a misleading pro-vegan publication saying "yes, my baby was a little thin on just soy when I first brought him home, but he certainly survived, he's 6'4" today a pro-vegan writer for twigs and berries weekly today!"

I mean, not all kids are gonna be equally resilient. Given the kinds of people who I've seen drift over into some questionable "all-natural" diets, there's no telling whether they were negligent and stupid or whether they thought "oh, we'll just risk it" and were reckless. I don't think it was straight murder though. Starving your infant to death? that's gotta be a tough way to do it if you've gone through having the kid and developed the resolve to kill it.

5/11/2007 1:03:04 PM

Quote :

"For someone who knows goldenviper, granted you aren't fat, but I'd be surprised if you could bench more than the bar when weightlifting. Get yourself some protein!"

I used to be able to bench more than the bar in my youth. It was pretty pathetic, but over a hundred pounds. I know we talked about this back in the day at the theater, and I don't remember you claiming to have benched any more. (Though in a leg press, I'm sure you'd beat me.) Most of the males at Galaxy are weak.

5/11/2007 1:51:31 PM

Dan, I don't think you read the whole article or law school has not crushed your belief in mankind.

The parents had a home birth with no prenatal care. They never took the baby to the doctor and they never registered his birth. He weighed 3 pounds at his death, 1/3 the size of a SMALL baby at his age. It was painfully obvious that something was wrong that the "reasonable man" would have seen. Those mitigating factors become harder to believe

Also, had they fed the kid the right amount of soy milk, he would still be alive and much larger than 3 pounds. He would have just been labeled "failure to thrive"


[Edited on May 11, 2007 at 2:29 PM. Reason : k]

5/11/2007 2:22:32 PM

^I stand corrected.... ya got me, btw. I usually pride myself on taking the time to read everyone's post, but I didn't here.

Also, reading over my previous post, I hope ppl understood that I was saying:
1. "There are potentially mitigating factors here"
and
2. "These are some scenarios that might have been possible"

because that first bullet I gave would definitely be the damning scenario without any mitigating factor at all...

BUT....(just can't help myself)... there are a lot people who are fantastic parents that have an aversion to doctors and give home births. I certainly don't back such decisions, but those alone aren't really conclusive...

but I can see how there's probably a "hey, maybe we should compromise a bit and go see a doc" when there's a 3 lb bag of skittles at BJ's that compares to the load of your kid... having recently fought my gfs cats (22 lbs, 12 lbs, 9 lbs) into their cages to move them to her new place, I guess the reasonable man std prob does apply to holding a kid!

Not related but amusing: the 9 lbs one was the toughest!

[Edited on May 11, 2007 at 3:13 PM. Reason : .]

5/11/2007 3:06:57 PM

are humans not considered animals. so by nature could the parents not argue that they could not use breast milk because it was the product of an animal. or for that matter, the kid itself was the product of an animal.... how does that work?

5/11/2007 3:14:54 PM

most vegans who are "reasonable" advocate only feeding a baby breast milk, because that is the purpose of human breast milk feeding human babies. the aversion to cow/other animal milk is because it "deprives" a animal baby of its mother's milk. These people just sound lazy to me and that the vegan line is a cop out.

5/11/2007 3:26:57 PM

Quote :

"BUT....(just can't help myself)... there are a lot people who are fantastic parents that have an aversion to doctors and give home births. I certainly don't back such decisions, but those alone aren't really conclusive... "

yeah, but they have midwives that check on the infant's progress, ESP. for the first 6 weeks

Quote :

"are humans not considered animals. so by nature could the parents not argue that they could not use breast milk because it was the product of an animal. or for that matter, the kid itself was the product of an animal.... how does that work?"

they could, but I don't think any lawyer would think twice about using such a moronic defense, as it would kill any credibility w/ the judge and their peers.

5/11/2007 3:28:55 PM

Quote :

"I used to be able to bench more than the bar in my youth. It was pretty pathetic, but over a hundred pounds. I know we talked about this back in the day at the theater, and I don't remember you claiming to have benched any more. (Though in a leg press, I'm sure you'd beat me.) Most of the males at Galaxy are weak."

yeah I suck, lol

5/11/2007 4:43:31 PM

What ever happened to 'crazy'

5/11/2007 4:52:25 PM

They should be force-fed sausage until they die.

5/11/2007 5:03:14 PM

life in prison?

what a joke

5/11/2007 5:47:53 PM

^^ actually, they should be given soy milk and organic apple juice for life.

^ too thick sarcasm in there... please elaborate. is that too light, or too heavy a punishment?

5/11/2007 6:06:33 PM

i guess in my opinion its insanely too severe

5/11/2007 6:42:06 PM

i agree... i commented the same earlier in the thread.

[Edited on May 11, 2007 at 6:43 PM. Reason : ]

5/11/2007 6:43:23 PM

i like to read the first post, skip 3 pages, and then just dump my opinion at the end

5/11/2007 6:43:52 PM

can't blame you at all!

5/11/2007 6:46:00 PM

^^you're not alone. I even did that this time.

5/11/2007 8:52:15 PM

Quote :

"There are 100's of other vegan couples who raise perfectly normal children."

Nope.

5/11/2007 11:56:47 PM

You're right, by saying "nope" you have brought my entire world crashing down around me. Gah, TWW is seriously bringing weak sauce lately.

5/12/2007 2:25:09 AM

many, many mothers can not breastfeed. its far more difficult than you non-mothers assume.

life imprisonment is ridiculously excessive. i hope they get a new trial.

yes the parents are stupid, yes they give respectable vegans a bad name, and yes they have no business raising children ....

... but the hell they're have to live with knowing they allowed their baby to die is the worst sort of hell anyone could ever endure. i wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy.

5/12/2007 2:54:27 AM

5/12/2007 3:27:25 AM

Quote :

"Without innoculations or mom's breast milk for maternal antibodies/defenses that babies need their first 6 months, the little sucker probably would have died with his first cold."

you're a goddamn retard if you really think this

innoculations are for diseases such as hepatitis and diptheria

http://www.drpaul.com/immunizations/immun-us.html

not for something like the common fucking cold....

breastmilk provides some active transfer resistance to everything the mother currently makes antibodies for... but by no means are any sort of replacement for the vaccine schedule.

Quote :

"people just weren't naturally meant to be vegans."

and how

your body is set up to process meat, fruit, nuts, and vegetables

[Edited on May 12, 2007 at 3:36 AM. Reason : s]

5/12/2007 3:36:07 AM

they should have to live off of apple juice and soy milk for a year as punishment

5/12/2007 10:53:24 AM

Here's what I want to know; all the ethical issues aside, is a vegetarian/vegan diet a much better diet for people to assume? Like, from a purely logical point of view would it make sense for people to be vegetarians?

There's always been something about vegetarianism that deep-down I disagree with, but at the same time it'd be ignorant of me to completely dismiss it out of hand. I've heard that there are distinct health benefits to not eating meat, as well as it being easier on the planet in terms of resource usage. Can anyone verify this? I'm pretty sure that it's at least possible to never eat meat, but does it make sense to? Is this something that all people should seriously consider?

5/12/2007 11:32:23 AM

if you're not an idiot about, it can be much, much healthier. obviously you'll be taking in more good fats and less bad fats, less cholesterol, etc, but you have to supplement the protein and other missing minerals with either really good food choices, other supplements, or both.

a really great handbook is still diet for a small planet
http://www.amazon.com/Diet-Small-Planet-20th-Anniversary/dp/0345321200

5/12/2007 11:37:05 AM

These people were obviously dumb and deserve to go to prison. Giving your child your breast milk is 100% natural and does no harm to anyone or anything (allergies and what not aside).

Yes, not eating meat is healthy. the only thing you get from meat is protein and you can get that SOOOOO many other ways. I've been a vegetarian for about 4 years (no fish or milk, either). Soy milk IS healthy for you, and more healthy than milk from an animal. These people were NOT feeding their kid like a vegan would...they fed him like a complete moron would. If I was a vegan, I'd be embarrassed b/c of them. There are plenty of people that raise their kids without meat.

5/12/2007 6:37:37 PM

Quote :

"the only thing you get from meat is protein "

no, protein is not the only thing.

Quote :

"Soy milk IS healthy for you, and more healthy than milk from an animal"

debatable, at best.

Quote :

"Yes, not eating meat is healthy"

define "meat". oily fish is healthier than almost anything you can eat.

5/12/2007 6:43:16 PM

^ Except when you get lead poisoned.

5/12/2007 6:44:27 PM

that's why you buy fish that is

1) small in size
2) from the deep oceans

yes, there is a risk of heavy metal poisoning from fish, esp Hg, but that is mainly from large fish, or from fish in polluted waters.

5/12/2007 6:48:29 PM

^ why small in size?

5/12/2007 7:27:36 PM

BABY NOT HUNGRY FOR MILK...HE HUNGRY FOR HOT POCKET

5/12/2007 7:29:01 PM

people are meant to eat meat.

5/12/2007 7:30:10 PM

HOTPOCKET COME IN BOTH MEAT AND NON MEAT VARIETY. SORRY NO VEGANS ALLOWED.

5/12/2007 7:31:10 PM

Quote :

"^ why small in size?"

for 2 reasons, which are intimately connected:

1) the longer time a fish has had for growing, the more heavy metals it has accumulated in its flesh.
2) and the larger the fish, the larger the fish it has eaten, and again, that means more accumulation of heavy metals (which can't be excreted).

that's why smaller fish is better to eat, and oily fish is better, from a nutritional standpoint, than white-fleshed fish (dry).

best: salmon, sardines, mackerel, herring, tuna (only small ones).

here are some lists of oily and non-oily fish, and some advice:

http://www.food.gov.uk/news/newsarchive/2004/jun/oilyfishdefinition
http://www.food.gov.uk/news/pressreleases/2004/jun/oilyfishadvice0604press
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oily_fish

5/12/2007 7:38:53 PM

my roomie freshman year was raised by Vegans, the poor guy couldn't really eat in clark without being sick for a week. And he didn't really believe the same things his parents did, but being raised in that house his body never got used to eating . . . well anything that tastes good.

and if you're gonna cut anything from your diet shouldn't it be high glycemic carbohydrates (at least when you are being a health nut). I mean the shit doesn't stay in you blood stream long enough to become anything but fat.

5/12/2007 8:01:46 PM

Did nobody notice the part where they didn't take the kid to the doctor because they didn't want to "over burden him." This sounds a lot like the way parents deal with their kids nowadays, giving in and putting them on crazy meds so they're not "over burdened."

5/12/2007 8:37:51 PM

Quote :

"no, protein is not the only thing."

You're right, but protein is the only significant source of nutrients. the fat, carbs, and other vitamins aren't exactly in such large quantities that you NEED to eat meat.

Quote :

"debatable, at best."

Ok. Soy milk contains the nutrients you'd get from milk. Milk from an animal, unless it's organic, includes all the hormones and unnatural crap given to the cow that was not meant for humans.

Quote :

"define "meat". oily fish is healthier than almost anything you can eat."

I never said it was UNhealthy to eat meat. I said NOT eating it IS healthy. And I agree, salmon and what not is extremely healthy/good for you.

Umm and keep in mind that I don't think there's anything wrong with anyone who eats meat. But people should know that someone who chooses to not eat meat isn't unhealthy or lacking their vitamins/nutrients. People who choose not to eat meat, and then choose not to diet properly do not go in the same category. For four years I've had no problems not eating meat, and the same goes for other vegetarians I know. And no, I do not support Peta or their message that meat is murder...just in case you're wondering.

5/13/2007 9:14:27 AM

are you spookyjon's younger sister?

5/13/2007 9:25:03 AM

ha. no.
spooky is an x-files reference.

[Edited on May 13, 2007 at 9:33 AM. Reason : ]

5/13/2007 9:32:41 AM

Quote :

"Giving your child your breast milk is 100% natural and does no harm to anyone or anything (allergies and what not aside). "

exactly. This story confuses me for that reason. Why not feed the baby that? Baby can't eat meat until a certain age anyways.

5/13/2007 10:18:09 AM

Quote :

"There's always been something about vegetarianism that deep-down I disagree with, but at the same time it'd be ignorant of me to completely dismiss it out of hand. I've heard that there are distinct health benefits to not eating meat, as well as it being easier on the planet in terms of resource usage. Can anyone verify this? I'm pretty sure that it's at least possible to never eat meat, but does it make sense to? Is this something that all people should seriously consider?"

really, eating healthy EITHER way is fine. if doing it for the health benefits, you could just put yourself on a regular diet unless you're really worried about the way meat is produced/harvested in the world.

eating shitty normally can dump you full of chemicals, cholesterol, and bad fats. eating shitty as a vegetarian can also fill you full of shitty fats (for example eating french fries and taco bell all day), or leave you malnourished. just be smart and you'll be fine.

i agree that are bodies were made to process meat so it isnt some obvious conclusion that we should all move towards. that said, i think it is a lot EASIER to just eat healthy normally than to be a healthy vegetarian. i've seen plenty people fail going veggie for long term.


[Edited on May 13, 2007 at 11:52 AM. Reason : .]

5/13/2007 11:50:52 AM

Quote :

"I never said it was UNhealthy to eat meat. I said NOT eating it IS healthy."

so what you're saying is that either is healthy. mankind has been eating meat for it entire existance, and they sure as hell didn't have soy-milk. So untill I die I will continue to eat meat, and if anyone tries to give me soy-milk I'll strangle them. you know how you can be more healthy, turn off the comp, and the tv and go the fuck outside.

5/13/2007 12:00:16 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soy#Soy_controversy

5/13/2007 12:38:34 PM

Quote :

"You're right, but protein is the only significant source of nutrients. the fat, carbs, and other vitamins aren't exactly in such large quantities that you NEED to eat meat. "

You are wrong, AND you misunderstood me. Do you think I was talking about carbs and fat from meat? Jesus, please educate yourself. There are no carbs in meat, and the fat, depends on what kind of "meat" you are talking about, but is usually mostly saturated, which is bad anyway. The sooner you define what you mean by "meat" the easier this will be. As far as the vitamins and minerals are concerned, you are flat out wrong. Even for protein you don't have to eat meat, let alone for the vitamins and minerals. BUT, beef is a VERY significant source of certain vitamins and minerals, which are hard to get from other sources.

Really, you need to learn about "meat", all kinds of meat. And if you have an issue with how meat is produced these days, that's another issue, but eating naturally produced beef/chicken is very healthy. And by that I mean organic, free-range, AND grass-fed.

And as I have said before, oily-fish, which is also "meat", is one of the healthiest foods on the planet. Tell me, where are you going to get your EPA and DHA from, if you don't eat oily-fish? Sure, you can get LA and ALA from flax seed and walnuts, but it takes 10 grams of LA/ALA to produce a gram of EPA/DHA in your body. And if you don't know what I am talking about, please look it up.

A pesci-vegetarian diet is several times healthier than a vegetarian diet. What about chicken eggs? One of the healthiest foods out there (esp the yolk), and again, I am referring to organic/free-range/naturally fed.

Quote :

"Ok. Soy milk contains the nutrients you'd get from milk. Milk from an animal, unless it's organic, includes all the hormones and unnatural crap given to the cow that was not meant for humans."

Really? Soy milk contains calcium? NO (unless it is fortified). And the quality of the protein? Milk and egg protein are of higher quality (for the human body) than soy protein.

Yes, soy products are good for you as several studies have borne out, but recently some controversy has also erupted. I suggest you look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soy#Soy_controversy

As for the hormones etc in milk, I agree with you, as I said earlier in this post. Animal products, as our hunter-ancestors used to eat, were VERY healthy. Not only were they lower in fat, but also had a smaller ratio of saturated fat as compared to today, and a higher than today ratio of monounsaturated fat, and even omega-3 fats (found in fish).

Quote :

"I never said it was UNhealthy to eat meat. I said NOT eating it IS healthy."

BOTH sentences are wrong. IF by eating a certain kind of meat, you could be healthIER, wouldn't that make your 2nd sentence wrong? Because you would be witholding something healthy from your body, and even if that's doesn't cause harm, you are still missing out on the benefits. So not only would that make your 2nd sentence wrong, but it would change it to "Not eating meat could be UNhealthy". That's assuming there IS such a meat. Yes, there is: oily fish. Again, the sooner you define "meat", the easier it will be. You can't talk about "meat" as one entity. There is a big difference in the healthiness or unhealthiness between different meats. Venison and ostrich is actually very good for you (again assuming from wild game). And liver, heart, brain, etc are some of the healthiest things on the planet, containing very high quantities of certain vitamins and minerals that are hard to obtain from other foods.

In today's world, with farm-raised animals, I would say that eating meat does more harm than benefit. In that case, a good vegetarian diet is definitely far healthier. But, a pesci-vegetarian diet is far healthier than a pure vegetarian diet (assuming it is wild fish from clean waters). And these are facts, backed up by countless studies.

However, if one is able to get their hands on wild game, or organic+free-range+grass-fed meat/dairy/eggs, or is able to go hunt themselves, then I believe that could be healthier than both options above, but this is my educated opinion, and is subject to a lot of debate and controversy in the medical and nutritional fields.

5/13/2007 3:04:33 PM

and http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1512419

5/13/2007 5:21:54 PM