How are we going to cut our dependence on foreign energy sources if our population keeps growing towards half a billion? Also with all the water shortages how is adding even more people to the population even a good idea? I would rather be called a racist and be able to take baths and use electricity than to go without them and not be called a racist.

11/16/2007 7:56:07 PM

We are not even close to this country's carrying capacity, nor will we get close to it via immigration

11/16/2007 9:41:35 PM

Quote :

"I would be in favor of letting them get driver's licenses for the simple purpose of safety. "

This seems to be the main argument in favor of giving licenses to illegals. May I remind all that Mohamed Atta was stopped by a traffic cop but was not detained because he showed a valid Virgina driver's license. He was an illegal alien with expired visa. But he had a driver's license which made it able for him to rent housing, open bank accounts, and board a airliner.

Why on earth would you give a legal document to someone who broke into our country? Talk about safety.

Giving licenses to illegals will only encourage more illegals to swarm in. It is the magic document that opens many doors to services and opportunities.

11/17/2007 12:06:23 PM

^^Nobody wants to live in North Dakota though.

11/17/2007 3:14:56 PM

Grumpy

I don't have the time or energy right now to argue it

but your continued assertion that western societies

and the Earth in general

aren't already overpopulated

is absolutely incorrect



I know that this negates much of your political standing, but it's better that you accept it now

rather than later when the impact would have more damage to your health

please, man

you need to understand that you are wrong

I'll argue later if I need to

11/17/2007 4:13:20 PM

Quote :

""Spitzers plan would give them a license to able to be used for only driving (not a valid ID for flying or traveling or any other federal purpose)" if there are no other benefits of this license besides driving...ie you dont get citizenship...you cant use it as federal ID for other things...no benefits aside from being able to legally drive...why would illegals even want this license? seriously dont you think many illegals would view it as some "come on...i promise if you put your guns down we wont shoot you..." type of trap? "

That's exactly what they are thinking, I think.

It would explain why there is such poor support across the board for Spitzer's plan, even among latinos.

Quote :

" I would rather be called a racist and be able to take baths and use electricity than to go without them and not be called a racist."

What an insanely ridiculous false dilemma.

I don't get where this pathological fear is coming from with the anti-immigration types. It's astounding.

[Edited on November 18, 2007 at 2:39 AM. Reason : ]

11/18/2007 2:34:33 AM

Quote :

"This seems to be the main argument in favor of giving licenses to illegals. May I remind all that Mohamed Atta was stopped by a traffic cop but was not detained because he showed a valid Virgina driver's license. He was an illegal alien with expired visa. But he had a driver's license which made it able for him to rent housing, open bank accounts, and board a airliner. Why on earth would you give a legal document to someone who broke into our country? Talk about safety. Giving licenses to illegals will only encourage more illegals to swarm in. It is the magic document that opens many doors to services and opportunities."

your logic is flawed. The traffic cops job is to not investigate into illegal immigrants or foreign citizens who come over and have their visa expire. The INS dropped the ball. He most likely also got the D.L before his Visa expires so your anecdote really does not carry much weight in this thread.

Many of you act like providing a D.L is the same as giving them a SSN card; and immigration papers. Your xenophobia and hatred for jose' 'tukken err jerbs' is clouding your judgement. How will this encourage illegals to swarm in??? IF they have a car and need to drive some where they will. The D.L. does NOTHING except get their name at least in they system which could help out the INS or police investigating crimes, promotes better driving, and protects American motorists from getting fucked by someone with no insurance when Pedro hits them

11/18/2007 2:21:14 PM

Quote :

"The traffic cops job is to not investigate into illegal immigrants "

It damn well should be. At least report them to INS.

Quote :

"Your xenophobia and hatred for jose' 'tukken err jerbs' is clouding your judgement. "

Protecting your borders from law-breakers is not xenophobic. I have no hate or fear of foreigners. I just want immigrants to enter our country legally.

Quote :

"The D.L. does NOTHING except get their name at least in they system which could help out the INS or police investigating crimes, promotes better driving, and protects American motorists from getting fucked by someone with no insurance when Pedro hits them "

What makes you think these people who stole their way into the country are going to follow something as mundane as traffic laws? What makes you think they're even going to give their correct name for the license? If you're here illegally, what do you care about getting insurance?

The Driver's License is the de-facto ID card in the US. While a D.L. may not be as golden as a fake SS card or birth certificate..it's right up there. A license becomes a breeder document which allows the person to obtain additional documents, based upon the false premise that he is a U.S. citizen. He can open banks accounts, rent housing, board planes.. all of which have nothing to do with the "safer roads" argument.

Criminals have no right to move around freely in our country.

Quote :

"The INS dropped the ball."

Well.. we sure agree here.

11/18/2007 10:41:26 PM

Quote :

"What makes you think these people who stole their way into the country are going to follow something as mundane as traffic laws?"

Because if they don't, they'll get a ticket, and they're paranoid they'll go to jail/get deported for driving without a license/whatever. Plus, it's a LOT safer to drive around when you know and are following the traffic laws.

Quote :

"What makes you think they're even going to give their correct name for the license? If you're here illegally, what do you care about getting insurance?"

You obviously didn't read my link, under Spitzer's plan, you have to have a passport to get the license. So they'd have to forge a passport with a false name to get a license. You're as likely as any illegal immigrant to want a fake passport with a fake name.

Quote :

"The Driver's License is the de-facto ID card in the US. While a D.L. may not be as golden as a fake SS card or birth certificate..it's right up there. A license becomes a breeder document which allows the person to obtain additional documents, based upon the false premise that he is a U.S. citizen. "

You clearly are unaware of what Spitzer's plan actually was. I'm surprised you have the balls to argue so adamantly against something you know nothing about. The drivers license he was going to give out was required to be clearly labelled that it wasn't a federally valid ID, which is a very strong indicator that the holder of that license wasn't a legal citizen (one of the reasons his plan failed). So your argument that he would be able to do things based on the false premise of being a citizen is flawed.

Quote :

"He can open banks accounts, rent housing, board planes.. all of which have nothing to do with the "safer roads" argument. "

Some of these things can already be done without a driver's license, and the 3rd tier license definitely wouldn't have been able to be used to board an airplane.

Quote :

"Criminals have no right to move around freely in our country. "

This is a fun thing to say, but it's not always true, is it? At one point, it was illegal to be a black person roaming around, or to have alcohol, yet if people viewed it as absolutely illegal, things would have never changed. It's flawed to use a circular statement as a basis of your argument.

[Edited on November 18, 2007 at 11:03 PM. Reason : ]

11/18/2007 11:03:29 PM

Quote :

"your logic is flawed."

HUR

As I've indicated before, he's obviously studying at the McDouche School for Advanced Asshattery.

Quote :

"The D.L. does NOTHING except get their name at least in they system which could help out the INS or police investigating crimes, promotes better driving, and protects American motorists from getting fucked by someone with no insurance when Pedro hits them"

HUR

Yeah, and which name would that be? "Pedro"? And my name is "Smith."

Workers Answer to Multiple Names

Quote :

"GEORGETOWN, Del. – The Delaware State Police trooper understands the name game well. 'Is that you?' he asks, comparing the picture identification card from the poultry plant with the person in front of him. Invariably, the first answer is a firm 'Yes.' Cpl. Edwin Justiniano keeps asking, knowing a perfect match between the person and the picture is often an imperfect science here. 'Is that you?' the trooper, Puerto Rican by way of Brooklyn, N.Y., presses on in Spanish. 'Yes,' is the answer again. But this time, the delivery is less certain. Doubt has crept in. The declaration comes with a key modification: 'Yes, it is, because that is who I am when I am working.'"

Quote :

"The assumption by the INS is that the practice carries nationwide. One indicator, officials said, is the occasional case involving a worker in Delaware who is cited by the Internal Revenue Service for failing to report income earned in a state the worker had never visited, much less worked in."

Quote :

"Inside the plants, some people know the name game and even play along. Workers joke about the multiple identities of some of their colleagues. Samantha Jones, who has worked at five plants on the Eastern Shore and is now at the Perdue plant in Showell, Md., said people come on the line, leave a short time later and suddenly show up again with a new name. One woman, Jones said, has worked as Sable, Mercedes, Alicia and, finally, Brenda. She has a physical disability, one leg shorter than the other, so her colleagues know it is her. 'Sometimes we'll call her Alicia,' Jones said. 'Me Brenda,' the woman reminds them."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=metro&contentId=A59795-1999Nov29

11/18/2007 11:09:58 PM

^ Why did you post an article about the poultry industries and its workers in a thread about NY driver's licenses?

11/18/2007 11:23:52 PM

^

1.

Quote :

"The D.L. does NOTHING except get their name at least in they system which could help out the INS or police investigating crimes, promotes better driving, and protects American motorists from getting fucked by someone with no insurance when Pedro hits them"

HUR

2.

Quote :

"Yeah, and which name would that be?"

hooksaw

3. Workers Answer to Multiple Names

Quote :

"The assumption by the INS is that the practice carries nationwide. One indicator, officials said, is the occasional case involving a worker in Delaware who is cited by the Internal Revenue Service for failing to report income earned in a state the worker had never visited, much less worked in."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=metro&contentId=A59795-1999Nov29

Are you on medication or something?

[Edited on November 19, 2007 at 12:16 AM. Reason : .]

11/19/2007 12:14:48 AM

Quote :

" It damn well should be. At least report them to INS."

While inherently wrong; wake the fuck up and be realistic. If city cops were responsible
for finding and apprehending every illegal Mexican that jumps the border our police force
instead of nailing the real criminals would spend most of their time raiding Bojangles and loading
up the patty wagon w/ 100's of illegals every day.

Quote :

"What makes you think these people who stole their way into the country are going to follow something as mundane as traffic laws?"

ummmm... b.c they will get pulled by law enforcement and ticketed for traffic violation. Following your view
that cops should be INS informants as well illegals would be at risk of deportation of breaking traffic laws.

Quote :

"correct name for the license"

Usually they have to provide some kind of physical evidence establishing identity. This is easy for US citizens; but for
maybe the illegals a Mexico birth certificate or something. Yeah this would be a barrier but this topic
is merely about whether or not they should be able to not IF they would apply for a D.L. if given the opportunity.

Quote :

"If you're here illegally, what do you care about getting insurance?"

lawsuits and being ABSOLUTELY FUCKED if you are responsible for an accident. Some Mexicans might also have morales about
fucking over an individual after causing an accident while not having the cash or insurance to pay for it.
Just b.c someone came here illegally does not mean that they are inhumane. Using this logic we could debate "should
someone who got caught with a gram of weed be allowed to have a drivers liscense?"; "if they broke the drug
laws why should we expect them to not break the traffic laws"

Quote :

"A license becomes a breeder document which allows the person to obtain additional documents"

Source!?!?!?! EVERY SINGLE JOB i applied for required something beyond just a D.L. in order to prove
work elidgeability. I apologize btw for the mexican that took your dish washing job at Gumby's.

Quote :

"He can open banks accounts, rent housing, board planes.. all of which have nothing to do with the "safer roads" argument. "

you are really losing me here. Why don't we just get the Hitler SS INS to just round
up all the illegals take them to some field and blow them away with M16's. Fuck the illegals you should write a book
Mein Kampf to inform us of your struggle and the US's downfall b.c of illegal immigrants.

BTW i am sure illegals are already renting housing and have bank accounts even w/o a D.L. I am sure not every guy
jumping the border lives in a box next to hillsbourgh street.

Quote :

" Criminals have no right to move around freely in our country."

maybe you are right...
have you every drove 80 in a 65
smoked a joint
drank a beer underage
got into a physical confrontation in a public place
urinated in the woods at some frat party when the line for the bathroom was 10 people long

damn fuck those criminals, to the gas chamber they should go....

maybe we should ban all felons once out of prison from driving as well.

hooksaw made me chuckle out his attempt to combat my argument as well as troll the thread. normal guys fuck their girls or wank it b4 bed; hooksaw blows his load and sleeps soundly every night after trolling a thread.

[Edited on November 19, 2007 at 12:22 AM. Reason : l]

11/19/2007 12:21:31 AM

^ You're a left-wing buffoon, and you're dead wrong on this issue. Time will show you.

And, yes, I want local and state law enforcement agencies across the country to be in the business of helping to deport illegal aliens--a growing number of North Carolina agencies agree because they're already doing it:

Traffic charges can bring deportation

Quote :

"GRAHAM - Some illegal immigrants in North Carolina are being deported after being jailed for traffic violations."

Quote :

"Mecklenburg, Alamance, Cabarrus and Gaston counties participate in the program, in which local jailers find illegal immigrants already in custody and cooperate with federal officials to deport them. Wake County commissioners designated more than $600,000 last week to bring the program to Wake County in the next six months."

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/immigration/story/773448.html

Sheriffs help feds deport illegal aliens

Quote :

"GRAHAM - Sheriff Terry Johnson's new jail has all the amenities: electronic locks, thick steel doors and a high-tech surveillance system. Soon, he hopes, it will be full of illegal immigrants on their way to deportation. The Alamance County Sheriff's Department, which Johnson has run since 2002, recently became one of only a dozen local law enforcement agencies nationwide to sign up for a program that allows them to enforce federal immigration laws. Three of the 12 are in North Carolina. Sheriff's departments in Mecklenburg, Gaston and Alamance counties are now checking the immigration status of every foreign person they arrest -- whether for running a stop sign or selling drugs -- and starting deportation of those in the United States illegally. In Mecklenburg County, which has been using the program for less than a year, nearly 1,000 people have been deported. Once a little-used program, local immigration enforcement is gaining popularity. Wake County Sheriff Donnie Harrison said he is considering it."

http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/566759.html

Wank on that, douche bag.

[Edited on November 19, 2007 at 1:05 AM. Reason : .]

11/19/2007 1:03:27 AM

Quote :

"1. Quote : "The D.L. does NOTHING except get their name at least in they system which could help out the INS or police investigating crimes, promotes better driving, and protects American motorists from getting fucked by someone with no insurance when Pedro hits them" HUR 2. Quote : "Yeah, and which name would that be?" hooksaw 3. Workers Answer to Multiple Names Quote : "The assumption by the INS is that the practice carries nationwide. One indicator, officials said, is the occasional case involving a worker in Delaware who is cited by the Internal Revenue Service for failing to report income earned in a state the worker had never visited, much less worked in." http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=metro&contentId=A59795-1999Nov29 Are you on medication or something? "

non sequitor

the medication only helps. You should try it.

^ and what exactly are you trying to show or prove there?

[Edited on November 19, 2007 at 1:42 AM. Reason : ]

11/19/2007 1:41:02 AM

Quote :

"one point, it was illegal to be a black person roaming around,"

Come on..you're relating border-jumping on the same level as slavery?

Let me ask you this. Suppose an illegal alien emerges from Hillary's shadows and takes the driver's test and fails...what then? Is this law-breaker going to stop driving? Doubtful.

And what if she later gets stopped by a cop. He sees that she doesn't have a license and arrests her. Later they find out at the station that she's here illegally...you want the local cops chasing the "real" criminals, right? So after prosecuting her for no DL, you let her go? Do you think that will stop her driving some more? I feel safer already.

And speaking of local cops. Some of the FBI's Most Wanted were caught by local cops on routine traffic stops. Now why were those cops messing around in federal affairs? A criminal is up for grabs..any law enforcer can catch them as far as I'm concerned.

Why do we have borders? What not let everyone in who wants to come in. Don't check to see if they have communicable disease. Don't check to see if they are convicted murderers, rapists, pedophiles, fans of "Ellen". Let 'em all in. If they go on welfare ..that's OK. IF they're terrorists hiding under multiple names...what's the problem.

Unchecked, uninspected, unfiltered illegal immigration is a blessing.

11/19/2007 1:57:55 AM

^^ It's actually non sequitur--not "non sequitor" (sic). (1) It's nothing of the sort, and (2) if you're going to use Latin words, you should learn how to spell them correctly. Your medication obviously doesn't help with spelling or definitions.

If states succeed in giving drivers' licenses to intentionally misidentified illegal aliens, those states have succeeded only in furthering the illegal activities of those individuals. In addition, law-abiding citizens will not be safer, because many of the illegal aliens will simply jump from one used up alias to another to avoid prosecution, insurance liability, and deportation.

And what I'm "trying to show or prove there" ^^^ is that not only can other-than-federal law enforcement agencies help deport illegal aliens, they increasingly are helping to do just that. But the answer is self-evident, and you are being purposely obtuse.

[Edited on November 19, 2007 at 2:16 AM. Reason : .]

11/19/2007 2:16:12 AM

Quote :

"It's actually non sequitur--not "non sequitor" (sic). (1) It's nothing of the sort, and (2) if you're going to use Latin words, you should learn how to spell them correctly. Your medication obviously doesn't help with spelling or definitions. "

I was close enough on the spelling, and dead on with the meaning. You were trying to rebut the idea that NY would have been handing out fake DLs like candy with an article from 1999 about workers in a meat plant responding to different names. Realistically, forging a fake passport, and then attempting to use that passport to get a crippled drivers license, or forging a fake AND plausible social security card to get a normal drivers license is a MUCH more difficult and complex task than telling someone your name is Alice when it's really Mary. I can't tell if you think HUR is that dumb to buy that line of reasoning, or if you're as much of a simpleton to swallow it yourself.

Quote :

"And what I'm "trying to show or prove there" ^^^ is that not only can other-than-federal law enforcement agencies help deport illegal aliens, they increasingly are helping to do just that. But the answer is self-evident, and you are being purposely obtuse. "

So you think HURs arguments was that police physically couldn't actually do it? Really? Wow.

11/19/2007 3:14:57 AM

Further, while that program surely is grabbing a lot of illegals, there's not a lot of data to show if it has any positive effect or not (there's not a lot of data period).

However, Florida's hispanic population has been growing at a fairly steady rate since 2002 (the year the program was implemented): http://edr.state.fl.us/population.htm From these numbers, it would seem that Florida police aren't really interested in cracking down on illegals, or that the program doesn't work. Perhaps it would require too much precious police resources to really process all of them? IIRC, Florida only has either 60 or 80 officers working on it.

And the crime rate has been dropping steadily since about 2000, with no inflections at 2002 that would correlate to more illegals being nabbed: http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/fsac/Crime_Trends/index.asp

It seems if we really want to get rid of illegals, we'll have to put full-blown, well-funded Immigration enforcement officials around the country, that did nothing but find illegals. But, would this really be worth it?

Considering that a study by FAIR (an anti-immigration group) says that:

Quote :

" And while illegal aliens represent just under three percent of the overall United States population, they represent over four and a half percent of the overall prison population, the FAIR spokesman points out. "

http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/03/illegal_aliens_have_higher_inc.php

It would be a pathetic waste of money to implement such a program to, at absolute best, reduce the prison population by 4.5%.

And considering that it's even possible that:

Quote :

"It may be surprising, then, to find agreement among several leading criminologists that immigration does not cause crime-and may even reduce it. "

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2006/01/01/good_waves/

and that

Quote :

" immigrant kids were less likely than peers of similar socioeconomic backgrounds to participate in everything from gang fights to arson to purse snatchings. Not only that, but even nonimmigrant kids who happened to live in immigrant neighborhoods were less likely than otherwise to be involved in violence...."

Why would we want to pick on immigrants? Isn't our time and money better spent else where?

Illegal immigrants that commit violent crimes absolutely should be deported, but the problem is no where near as bad as certain people make it out to be.

11/19/2007 4:17:08 AM

Quote :

"You're a left-wing buffoon,"

Excellent supporting evidence.

you must be the left-wing buffoon since the republican leadership is generally more lax on illegal immigration than the liberals. Yeah, many of the republican congressman may flap their lips in order to appease the "Gitt URrr Dun" common people republican voters; but we all know that generally what is said is not always what actually gets done.

[Edited on November 19, 2007 at 8:25 AM. Reason : l]

11/19/2007 8:24:40 AM

^ You "wank" to ""Gitt URrr Dun," "DEY TUK URR JOBS," and "turrists," don't you?

11/19/2007 3:28:00 PM

Quote :

"May I remind all that Mohamed Atta was stopped by a traffic cop but was not detained because he showed a valid Virgina driver's license. He was an illegal alien with expired visa. But he had a driver's license which made it able for him to rent housing, open bank accounts, and board a airliner."

Oh, OK. Something like 3,000 people died on 9/11, right? Give or take.

Quote :

"Between 1993 and 1997, some 42,049 people died because someone who did not hold a valid driver's license climbed behind the wheel of a vehicle and drove anyway, according to a recent report."

http://www.autotrader.com/research/car-safety/article-3196/AAA-Fingers-Unlicensed-Drivers-in-Deaths.jsp?restype=used

According to the rest of that article, around half of those 10,000+ deaths a year were caused by people who had previously been licensed but fucked up, got their license revoked, but continued driving anyway. Meaning very roughly 5,000 people a year are killed by drivers who have just never had a valid US drivers license.

Even if illegal aliens represent only a relatively small fraction of that part, they've managed to kill substantially more people in this country in recent years than terrorists can claim.

Again, offering licenses won't make the problem go away, but it can help ameliorate it. Yes, there are benefits that come with a drivers' license -- although not so many as you seem to imply -- but these serve primarily as motivation for the illegals to get the licenses and, as a result, the at least bare amount of testing and certification that has the potential to drastically reduce their negative impact.

Quote :

"Giving licenses to illegals will only encourage more illegals to swarm in."

So if we polled Mexicans right now and asked, "Why haven't you tried to cross the border yet?," you honestly think that a number of them would answer, "Well, I would, but without the driver's license it's just not worth the trouble."?

Quote :

"but your continued assertion that western societies and the Earth in general aren't already overpopulated is absolutely incorrect"

Well, your so far unsupported assertion to the contrary ain't gonna sway me, no matter how passionately you implore me to think of my health, so I guess you better get to arguing it.

Gotta go, I'll deal with the rest later.

11/19/2007 5:15:21 PM

Quote :

"aaronburro did some Mexican take your lawn mowing job growing up or something??? If nothing else Mexicans come here work hard, open up nice mexican restaurants so i can get my tacos, they do not turn everything in a racial issue, for the most part to not expect free handouts, and to be nearly tied for the largest minority population are statistically much less likely to be the ones breaking into my car stealing my stereo while parked at the mall. If you want to be mad at anyone for [quote]DEY TUK URR JOBS"

. Blame George W who made it more profitable for companies to move their manufacturing over seas. I'm not quite sure yet how i feel about free trade but thats another issue. The outsourcing of jobs and increased competitiveness of foreign companies in the US consumer markets are more to blame then the Mexican coming over to scrub dishes for your job loss.
[/quote]


I agree with everything in this post. Only uneducated racist redneck idiots are saying OMG THEY ARE TAKING OUR JOOOOBS!!! Drive around NC and look for the dozens if not hundreds of boarded up manufacturing and textile plants. Then look at all the empty storefronts and boarded up businesses that surround them. That is a situation where jobs were taken. People who move here to work, don't steal jobs in most cases they create them.

You cannot live somewhere without spending money and contributing to its economy. Immigrants rent apartments, buy cars, cell phones, clothes, food, patronize restaurants, retailers, and entertainment venues. The wave of people coming here just to send money back to Mexico is coming to a close, people are starting families here with kids who are American citizens.

Many American industries have said plainly they could not survive without their immigrant work force.

11/25/2007 4:08:44 PM

dey tukk errr jerbs!!!!

11/25/2007 7:11:48 PM