You know its the end of a just society when people argue against righteousness and civility

12/11/2007 2:24:22 AM

Is any society truly just to begin with?

12/11/2007 2:26:41 AM

No... but its something to work towards

12/11/2007 2:27:34 AM

Federal budget:


HHS budget (see page 2)
http://www.hhs.gov/budget/08budget/2008BudgetInBrief.pdf

Medicare expenditures by age

Quote :

"In 1999, of the entire Medicare population, 81.2% were White, 9% were Black, and 7.3% were Hispanic. (Kaiser, Medicare Chart Book (2001), p. 81) ... Among those who were eligible for Medicare by disability in 1999, 69.6% were White, 17.3% were Black, and 10.9% were Hispanic. "

Medicaid has similar statistics of usability, in terms of representation of the population.

From those statistics, it's pretty clear that people who are pushing for reduce taxation by cutting social services are barking up the wrong tree. If you presume that ALL social services to the poor are wasteful, at a MAX you can save 15% of gov. costs. Realistically, not all social services are wasted, so that number plummets to maybe 5-10% savings by not helping poor people out.

If you really want the gov. to be able to cut taxes, it's pretty clear on what's the easiest programs to save money from.

Another interesting statistic, but unrelated to this thread, is that it seems for medicare at least (and in 1999), whites are overusing it compared to their eligibility, and blacks are underusing it. This certainly goes against the idea that eyedrb likes to paint of leeching poor minorities greedy for free healthcare.

[Edited on December 11, 2007 at 2:37 AM. Reason : labels]

12/11/2007 2:37:19 AM

Quote :

"moron: If you really want the gov. to be able to cut taxes, it's pretty clear on what's the easiest programs to save money from."

My main problem with cutting defense is that it shafts the people serving.

And folks who want to save money are down with cutting defense, but they really want to cut the social programs, even if it doesn't significantly affect the amount of taxes they have to pay. They genuinely believe this country would be better--for everybody, even the poor folks--without those programs. And, in some instances, they're just ugly, spiteful bastards that like to see people struggle unnecesarily.

12/11/2007 3:56:25 AM

Quote :

"You're right that they're economy isn't run well by the government, but that doesn't mean they have a bad or inefficient economy (come on, these are the Japanese here). If you take Dr. Flath's class on this (which I strongly recommend) you get the image of an economy that is very self organizing and doesn't need one strong central power. While there were mistakes and there was a huge recession starting with the 90s, most economists believe there was something inevitable about a slowing of growth at least. After you develop (or re-develop to some degree for the Japanese miracle) to the same level as the other top economic powers of the world and your workforce is shrinking and not expanding, where do you have left to go? The Japanese really do have a much more even wealth distribution than we do, and it's something you can see if you go there. They're not spotted with filthy rich and filthy poor neighborhoods. Most places are... about the same economically."

I'm graduated. In my job I work with Japanese customers on a daily basis.

Japanese society has two twin problems which threaten their country's future as an economic power:

1.) They don't make enough children. (for women, you either work or you raise kids, you can't do both; with a lot of women in the workforce now that means less babies being born)

2.) They're "ethnically proud". That's as nice as I can put it and I think you can figure out what that means. Not so much toward people of white/European stock, you'll notice any Japanese cartoon you've ever watched all the characters are white, but more towards other Asians and Africans.

Here's a conversation I had with someone that lived in Japan (married to a Korean, his description of how Korean culture works is hilarious) when we were discussing the Japanese psyche in sports. His belief is that when the generation that runs the country now passes on, Japan is going to severely decline. The older generation had to help rebuild their country in a long, drawn out process after what World War II did to them. The younger generations on the other hand have had everything given to them on a silver platter all their life and don't know the meaning of sacrifice. I suppose the same could be said about America, but we have 310 million people and Japan does not.

Quote :

"Japanese have a very delicate psyche, despite the talents they may have technically. Forgive this rambling basketball anecdote. I spent several years living in Japan. I played basketball at Komazawa park in Tokyo Saturday and Sunday every week and played against very skilled kids...I don't mean Venice/Rucker skilled, but very solid fundamentals, and natural athletic talent, quick, great dribbling, excellent shooting, and eventually kids who could dunk in a game. "On paper" these kids whould have wiped the floor with us old guys who maybe played HS ball in the states, maybe just park pickup games. It typically ended up a foreginer vs Japanese game, because they were trying to measure themselves (see a complex in the natural instincts to measure up yet?) I was teamed up with an American or two, and any African, Caribbean or non-Japanese asian who showed up to play. All you had to do was block a shot or steal a ball, and their confidence was crushed, and we'd go on to win the game. We'd go down a couple points, I'd swat some shot to the bleachers...I'd make eye contact with the Malawian kid on my team, we'd snicker, then we'd go on to win. I can't tell you how many times I saw that happen. I really liked these kids we were playing with, and they were among some of the best players in Japan, but they had zero ability to bounce back from adversity on the court. Every once in a while we'd find a guy with indomitable spirit but he'd be so atypical of the rest of the guys out there. Those kids were also outcasts and losers, they just didn't get along with other Japanese. It was very illustrative of Japanese thinking and sporting behavior. It has also informed me very well in my working life as to how to work with Japanese people (my work is with Japanese companies). "

I then brought up the World Baseball Classic victory for Japan. (We were talking about national diseases in soccer. Japan's is in the face of adversity they collapse and give up cheap goals.) Saying it was amazing cause in Round 1, they lost to South Korea at the Tokyo Dome. In Round 2, they lost to South Korea again and were almost bounced from the tournament. In Round 3, they finally beat the South Koreans, and would then go on to defeat Cuba to win the whole thing. Here was his response:

Quote :

"I hate baseball but watched that entire tournament for sociological reasons. Very interesting. The baseball generation (40+) are the occupation bred grind it out guys, born and raised on nothing and satisfied to eke out a meagre living, with pride and craftmanship in everything they do. Defeat to the South Koreans only made them stronger. This is the best that Japanese sporting can be, truly. It's very different than the 20-somethings born with a disposable spoon in their mouth, who have become the soccer (& basketball) generation. I suspect a lot of Japanese soccer coaches tried to use that to inspire their players/kids, but the players brushed it off with "baseball is for stodgy old losers". You'll note Australia's crushing of the Japanese spirit in the World Cup this summer. When that happened, I knew exactly what I'd seen because I'd seen it before. Don't you think Japan disintegrated to an "inferior" team? There is no yardstick for spirit. By the way, I think the Japanese GK is a baseball spirited guy. I got a lot of respect for him. The trade off between the baseball generation and the soccer generation is that the baseball guys are about teamwork, method and spirit overcoming individual streghts and weaknesses (quintessentially Japanese!), whereas soccer to Japanese players is more about individual creativity and freedom of expression, which up to recently has NOT been a hallmark of Japanese society, but is what everybody wishes they could be fortunate and wealthy enough to be able to afford. Yes, the Classic was totally fascinating to me."

[Edited on December 11, 2007 at 7:25 AM. Reason : /]

12/11/2007 7:05:19 AM

Quote :

"2.) They're "ethnically proud". That's as nice as I can put it and I think you can figure out what that means. Not so much toward people of white/European stock, you'll notice any Japanese cartoon you've ever watched all the characters are white, but more towards other Asians and Africans."

How on earth did you manage to leave out the Brazilians?

12/11/2007 12:10:56 PM

Quote :

"Scuba Steve: You know its the end of a just society when people argue against righteousness and civility"

Ok, you know what? I haven't even been here that long, and I'm already sick to death of this goddamend self-righteous attitude you cop with anyone who disagrees with you. Anyone who doesn't advocate forcible redistribution of wealth must be an advocate of immorality and incivility. Anyone who disagrees with your attitudes toward proper wealth distribution must be irrational, if not sociopathic.

You know what? Here's an idea: maybe somebody else has a different idea about how we can achieve similar ends of maximizing good in society. Maybe not everyone believes that your way is the One True Way to accomplish the end of a better society. And maybe everyone who disagrees with you isn't some shallow, self-centered, quasi-sociopathic plebeian.

In short, get off your damned high horse already.

[Edited on December 11, 2007 at 12:25 PM. Reason : .]

12/11/2007 12:23:56 PM

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"They don't make enough children. "

Well this is problem in our country too. The middle/professional/upper classes have a relatively low birth rate also. On the flip side the poor people are making lots of babies. I see this as a problem when it comes to raising future leaders , scholars, and professionals. At least we will have lots of NBA stars and country music singers. This is an issue because the homes of successful educated Americans are more likely to raise productive educated successful Americans. Yes everyone has the chances to get ahead or pull themselves out of poverty but statistically are less likely. This can be evidenced on the increasing pressure of socialists programs in this country as the lower classes carry more political weight.

[Edited on December 11, 2007 at 12:31 PM. Reason : a]

12/11/2007 12:28:11 PM

Quote :

"Car insurance is because you might get in a wreck. Home insurance is because you might have your house burn down. But you will need medical care at some point and usually much more frequently. The fact that we have allowed a basic necessity of life to be speculated out of the affordability of even the middle class is unconscionable. Not only must we be speculated on by the medical industry, we must be speculated on by an insurance industry that is predicated on maximizing profits by smoke and mirrors (i.e. deductibles, copays, claim refusal, approved treatments/procedures)"

Your care and home owners insurance would be just as expensive and just as crappy to deal with as health insurance if they had to pay out for every little repair, inspection and fuck up you caused.

12/11/2007 12:50:24 PM

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"If you don't understand how money influences politics then we don't need you here."

I think it is probably a mistake to think that money influences politics in the sense that money gets legislators and other politicians to support proposals that are more tilt more in favor of money interests than they would on their own.

In my limited experience most politicians vote for policies that are more socialist or economically populist than they personally believe are correct. However, this is a necessity of getting elected.

I think it looks like money has more influence than it does because politicians line up with monied interest more than the common person. This, however, is because once you become a politician your staff typically forces you to sit through dozens of presentations on how the economy works and this causes you to become more economically conservative.

The thing is most people can't act on this because they will get kicked out.

The reason Bill Clinton was such a successful centrist is because he was able to act on the advice of his staff while still smooth talking the public into believing he was more leftist than he really was.

12/12/2007 3:17:18 PM

Quote :

"I think it is probably a mistake to think that money influences politics in the sense that money gets legislators and other politicians to support proposals that are more tilt more in favor of money interests than they would on their own. In my limited experience most politicians vote for policies that are more socialist or economically populist than they personally believe are correct. However, this is a necessity of getting elected."

What fantasy land are you living in.

12/12/2007 3:28:44 PM

Yeah, 90% of the time the candidate with more campaign money wins.

12/12/2007 3:30:22 PM

here's to answering the thread's question:

Gates, Slim, and Ambani all have $60 billion and change right now. assuming either them or others of their caliber are good at what they do, they can grow their wealth at 10% a year. at that growth rate, we may see the first trillionaire in 2036 or 2037.

its a rough cut estimate with broad assumptions, just popped it into excel right quick, but it seems like we'll see the first trillionaire by 2040.

12/12/2007 3:41:14 PM

Quote :

"Yeah, 90% of the time the candidate with more campaign money wins."

A) I am not sure this is empirically true

B) You don't know if they win because they have money or if they have money because they are winning. No one wants to give money to someone who is sure to lose.

Quote :

"What fantasy land are you living in"

This is pure observation from experience with politicians. There are few that I have seen even on the left side of the isle who actually buy into what is probably mainstream liberal economic thinking but not many and the ones who do are for the most part not respected by their peers.

12/12/2007 9:07:37 PM

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"My main problem with cutting defense is that it shafts the people serving."

well there is a difference btw paying to have a standing army and paying to play nation building in the middle east.

12/12/2007 10:48:57 PM

Yes, lets blow up the entire country with million dollar missiles, then rebuild it all with private contractors at 20 or 30 times the original cost. Thats really sticking it to the troops.

12/12/2007 10:54:03 PM

yeah i agree. Iraq will probably hit the history books as the biggest boondoggle in american history surpassing Vietnam.


[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:59 PM. Reason : l]

12/12/2007 10:58:22 PM

I hope Bush is booed and cussed everywhere he goes when he leaves office. Maybe if he's not insulated by a culture of yes men, he can see how strongly people hate him.

12/12/2007 11:02:53 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/12/bush.war.funding/index.html

Work hard guys Bush is counting on you to earn income so he can have the tax revenue to keep funding his war. I surely hope Bush & Co. along w/ Halliburton are enjoy the windfall profits made from vested interest in companies profitting from this shit. Fuck Bin Laden and hope he rots in hell but even he in one of his videos called out Halliburton for exploiting the war for profits. Shit like this is what gives fucking towel heads like Bin Laden power and followers.

12/12/2007 11:12:14 PM

Quote :

"Your car and home owners insurance would be just as expensive and just as crappy to deal with as health insurance if they had to pay out for every little repair, inspection and fuck up you caused. "

You are dead on. However, people still wont understand your point. Its also amazing the amount of people that will do NOTHING to improve their own health, but rely on others to fix it for them. Sad

12/12/2007 11:23:29 PM

i continue to be amused by those that think that gates could not spend his money in his lifetime

12/15/2007 7:26:04 PM