Quote :

"legalizing all drugs (including heroin, coke, meth, pcp, etc) = less order in society"

Quote :

"I think an argument could be made that repealing current drug laws and putting place other laws which hold people responsible for their actions while on drugs could make for more order in society, and not less"

for instance, the overwhelming financial blow to gangs and terrorists were drugs made safe and legal

cops could actually focus on real crime

(there are many cops and retired cops that believe the entire drug war should be ended)

it seems that mostly uninformed, ignorant, fearful or bigoted people support it

as for drug dealers that are involved in other crimes, that spend their drug profits on executing those crimes,

they like the drug war, because it makes their entire existence possible




[Edited on May 8, 2008 at 1:27 PM. Reason : ]

5/8/2008 1:16:02 PM

5/8/2008 1:23:31 PM

"put the gangs out of business"

...while allowing the gang known as the US Government to make even more money

BRILLIANT

5/8/2008 1:23:59 PM

^^
uh...

^
haha yeah, that's a whole different issue right there



[Edited on May 8, 2008 at 1:29 PM. Reason : ]

5/8/2008 1:28:59 PM

its completely related to legalizing drugs

its not a separate issue at all

5/8/2008 1:29:25 PM

Quote :

"legalizing all drugs (including heroin, coke, meth, pcp, etc) = less order in society"

It would probably cause more individual harm, but societal is highly arguable. If smugglers and dealers couldn't make money selling, they would cease to exist, which would effectively eliminate most of the violence, theft, organized crime ect....associated with it.

personally, I think there should be much lighter penalties for possessing/using, and much harsher ones for any type of violence associated with drugs (including alcohol).

[Edited on May 8, 2008 at 1:31 PM. Reason : too late.]

5/8/2008 1:30:11 PM

thefts in order to feed the habit would rise dramatically along with violent crimes involving people on the substances.

5/8/2008 1:33:55 PM

Quote :

"I think an argument could be made that repealing current drug laws and putting place other laws which hold people responsible for their actions while on drugs could make for more order in society, and not less""

Quote :

"I think an argument could be made that repealing current drug laws and putting place other laws which hold people responsible for their actions while on drugs could make for more order in society, and not less""

Quote :

"I think an argument could be made that repealing current drug laws and putting place other laws which hold people responsible for their actions while on drugs could make for more order in society, and not less""

Exactly. Guns are dangerous and hurt people. However, i can legally possess a gun but if i use it to threaten/hurt/kill someone then i am breaking the law and will face the consequences.

Hypothetically even if we did keep the current status quo ban on drugs the current enforcement policy should be changed. Go after the drug dealers fine. They are evading taxes, selling merchandise without proper licenses, smuggling, and it could be argued that their distribution is "hurting" people. On that note however, there should be NO criminal penalty for personal consumption. If i want to shoot up all day the only i am hurting is myself. If i throw my life down the drain and rob a bank for drug money; then fine i get 40 years for robbing the bank. If i take a few lines then in my coke rage kill someone then I should get locked away for murder.

5/8/2008 1:46:56 PM

substances would cost dramatically less, so theft to support the habit wouldn't be nearly as big an issue as the violence associated with it now. How big a problem is violent theft to buy cigarettes or alcohol? The worst you might get is a panhandler or two.

and as covered earlier, penalties concerning violence associated with drug possession/use should be drastically harsher.

5/8/2008 1:49:39 PM

Quote :

"for instance, the overwhelming financial blow to gangs and terrorists were drugs made safe and legal cops could actually focus on real crime (there are many cops and retired cops that believe the entire drug war should be ended) it seems that mostly uninformed, ignorant, fearful or bigoted people support it as for drug dealers that are involved in other crimes, that spend their drug profits on executing those crimes, they like the drug war, because it makes their entire existence possible"

i love how you're totally incapable of single spacing your posts. or even actually contributing enough content so your posts extend most the way to the right, like this one.

5/8/2008 1:49:49 PM

^^
exactly

Quote :

"thefts in order to feed the habit would rise dramatically"

yeah right

just look at all the thefts to feed tobacco and alcohol addiction

legal [pure/regulated] drugs would be cheaper, or might even operate similar to the "methadone program"

(where addicts can buy methadone from a place safe from robbery, over-dose, and drug impurity)

thefts in order to feed the habit would rise fall dramatically

(get a clue)

Quote :

"...along with violent crimes involving people on the substances."

except that there's no reason to assume that many more people will be on the substances

as well as those that are on them now being more able to financially afford or tolerate the stigma of drug treatment

violent crimes involving people on the substances would fall dramatically

(again, get a clue)


besides

Quote :

"If i throw my life down the drain and rob a bank for drug money; then fine i get 40 years for robbing the bank. If i take a few lines then in my coke rage kill someone then I should get locked away for murder."

would still apply

Quote :

"i love hoe you're totally incapable of single spacing your posts. or even putting enough text on one line to extend all the way to the right...like this post"

I like the way that you, instead of contributing anything remotely relevant or useful, decided to, for some reason, point out how I use new-lines and commas interchangeably -- it should be pointed out, also, that in the event of a large picture "bomb", all of my posts remain easily readable. well, all of them except this one. OMG ONE LINE!





[Edited on May 8, 2008 at 1:59 PM. Reason : ^]

5/8/2008 1:50:09 PM

how does all this drug legalization fit into (many of your) grand liberal schemes of nationalized health care?

so we should allow people to do all the drugs and fucked up shit to their body they want, then raise the taxes of the rest of us to pay for their health care, which would be an obvious by-product of said legalization? Is it a coincedence that most (not all) who support complete drug legalization also support free nationalized health care?

Quote :

"either answer the many questions I've asked you that you haven't addressed"

I have already said that your blatent douchebaggary warrants no further encouragement from me. by your statements, trying to have a discussion with you on this subject is akin to beating one's head against the wall. further, I have also responded to your numerous and volumous rants on the subject in other places on TWW and really would rather converse with sane people from this point forward who have new opinions and ideas on the subject.



whoever brought up the point about Ritalin and children is also 100%. I am strongly against doping up elementary school kids in the manner that we do today. I believe it establishes reliance on drug use later life (legal or illegal).

5/8/2008 2:00:42 PM

kids wouldn't need ritalin if they got off the soda and actually went outside to play.

5/8/2008 2:02:05 PM

^^ WOW you are dead wrong; please refer to my other active thread.

My libertarian views while supporting one's rights to not use a seatbelt while driving, gamble their money away, or do lines in the bathroom at hi-5, does not support government involvement in one's economic activities. I stand firmly against universal health care; as i would rather not pay taxes to subsidizes someones liver failure due to alcoholism or heart failure from ODing on coke

[Edited on May 8, 2008 at 2:05 PM. Reason : a]

5/8/2008 2:04:55 PM

Quote :

"how does all this drug legalization fit into (many of your) grand liberal schemes of nationalized health care? "

yeah as HUR is pointing out. The majority of the people who are going to sit here and argue for the legalization of these substances are self-identified conservatives. Your connection to those who support universal health care and legalization of some substances is fallacious and arrive by the largest incomprehension of basic political ideals i have seen to date.

5/8/2008 2:11:26 PM

^^^
true

Quote :

"how does all this drug legalization fit into (many of your) grand liberal schemes of nationalized health care?"

good question

any liberals out there?

Quote :

"so we should allow people to do all the drugs and fucked up shit to their body they want, then raise the taxes of the rest of us to pay for their health care, which would be an obvious by-product of said legalization?"

of course not; if anything health care should reflect individual choices (addicts and fatties pay more)

legalization of drugs would be good for that, although, that may not be what some "free-lunch" liberals want

Quote :

"Is it a coincedence that most (not all) who support complete drug legalization also support free nationalized health care?"

I'm not sure that's the case....many (if not most) liberals only want certain drugs legalized (the ones they do)

mostly, it seems, only constitution nuts like me and ron paul want total legalization

Quote :

"trying to have a discussion with you on this subject is akin to beating one's head against the wall."

I'm sorry you feel that way

(I hope you understand that your failure to address my points may be viewed by some as you losing the argument)

Quote :

"whoever brought up the point about Ritalin and children is also 100%. I am strongly against doping up elementary school kids in the manner that we do today. I believe it establishes reliance on drug use later life (legal or illegal)."

I'm glad we can agree on that

I did ritalin long before any illegal drugs -- my parents and doctors taught me, as a child, how to alter my consciousness

5/8/2008 2:12:41 PM

^ agreed in response to "if you want legalized drugs you must want socialized health care."

I want nothing to do with socialized health care.

5/8/2008 2:21:43 PM

Quote :

"yeah as HUR is pointing out. The majority of the people who are going to sit here and argue for the legalization of these substances are self-identified conservatives. Your connection to those who support universal health care and legalization of some substances is fallacious and arrive by the largest incomprehension of basic political ideals i have seen to date."

I did say MOST. I, unlike a lot on this board, understand that you cannot paint entire parties with one broad brush, so I tried to qualify the statement.

I do recognize the libertarian (conservative) side of the pro-legalization and how that sect would be pro-legalization and anti-national health care. I consider myself to be the libertarian side of conservative, stopping just short of feeling the need for less drug legislation.

However, would you not agree that drug legalization is largely a liberal idea (as is universal health care) and largely does not fit it with the conservative platform? Thats what I meant.

5/8/2008 2:23:31 PM

I understand what you meant, and would like to hear someone on the liberal side of that issue respond, just wanted to qualify myself as not part of the socialized health care crowd.

5/8/2008 2:26:41 PM

That statement merely shows his ignorance and his closed box views fed by the establishment.

Ron Paul is self-described as having christian social values. However, he is smart enough to realize what a waste of time and money the war on drugs is. further he feels it is not the governments job to make sure Cheech and Chong are getting high.


The right wing christian conservative camp relies on propagating biased researched, use of outrageous claims in propaganda, spreading fear, and feeding off of peoples inherent racial tendencies in order to keep alive the current gov't policy on illegal drugs.

[Edited on May 8, 2008 at 2:32 PM. Reason : a]

[Edited on May 8, 2008 at 2:33 PM. Reason : a]

5/8/2008 2:28:40 PM

Quote :

"I did say MOST"

right, but it might not even be that many -- it might only be "some"

Quote :

"However, would you not agree that drug legalization is largely a liberal idea (as is universal health care)"

I'm not really sure why drug legalization (or even things like anarchy) got associated with liberalism

perhaps because they're viewed as so socially extreme, so anti-establishment

Quote :

"and largely does not fit it with the conservative platform?"

well, not with the neo-conservative platform

I think that most true [constitutional] conservatives eventually decide that total legalization is both logical and ethical




[Edited on May 8, 2008 at 2:35 PM. Reason : ]

5/8/2008 2:34:27 PM

I bet if Jesus were alive he would support legalizing marijuana. After all it comes from one of gods creations. Also, all the stoner hippies i know tend to be some of the must peace loving people i've met; unlike the enraged drunk meatheads i encounter at the bar.

5/8/2008 2:36:02 PM

Quote :

"That statement merely shows his ignorance and his closed box views fed by the establishment. Ron Paul is self-described as having christian social values. However, he is smart enough to realize what a waste of time and money the war on drugs is. further he feels it is not the governments job to make sure Cheech and Chong are getting high. The right wing christian conservative camp relies on propagating biased researched, use of outrageous claims in propaganda, spreading fear, and feeding off of peoples inherent racial tendencies in order to keep alive the current gov't policy on illegal drugs. "

haha ok man. because I hold an opinion that I hate drugs and dont think they should be legalized HAS to come from the 'establishment' and could not have come from personal experience.

its hilarious how the pro-drug crowd REFUSES to acknowledge any negative potential fallout from their rantings and views. the country we live in is already full of addicted, sick, unhealthy people. we want to encourage more??? I just cant wrap my mind around that.

btw, when did it ever switch from coke to pot? I have already said about hundred times in this thread that I really dont give a shit about pot.

[Edited on May 8, 2008 at 2:48 PM. Reason : .]

5/8/2008 2:42:48 PM

^^i bet he wouldnt support legalizing heroin!

[Edited on May 8, 2008 at 2:44 PM. Reason : ^^]

5/8/2008 2:43:59 PM

Quote :

"the country we live in is already full of addicted, sick, unhealthy people. we want to encourage more???"

I don't consider legalization as encouragement.

5/8/2008 2:44:09 PM

Quote :

"I bet if Jesus were alive he would support legalizing marijuana"

I would tend to agree

he may even have used cannabis (or as some biblical scholars cite from the bible as "sweet calamus")

hemp [possible hash] oil may have even been used as one of the oils that anointed the disciples

just saying though -- I'm not really a christianity buff

Quote :

"the stoner hippies i know tend to be some of the must peace loving people i've met; unlike the enraged drunk meatheads i encounter at the bar"

haha -- "the irony of it all" by the streets

Quote :

"we want to encourage more???"

[legal, or otherwise] recognition of a civil liberty is not an encouragement to practice that civil liberty

flag burning, for instance -- I support it as a civil liberty, but I would never do it

besides

legalization would reduce harms associated with drugs, not increase them

5/8/2008 2:47:14 PM

^^^ you are probably right b.c heroin is not one of god's creations. It is a bastardization of the opiate plant manipulated and altered by humans. Kinda like training dogs for dog fighting; or killing elephants to use their tusks for ivory.


[Edited on May 8, 2008 at 2:50 PM. Reason : a]

5/8/2008 2:49:13 PM

Quote :

"I don't consider legalization as encouragement. "

this is a point I had not considered.

my view is that it would easier to obtain and cheaper...therefore easier to become dependent. more would try drugs because the stigma would be lifted and more would become addicted (and I am NOT talking about pot).

Quote :

"legalization would reduce harms associated with drugs, not increase them "

I agree it would reduce street violence but what about domestic violence? we see what alcohol does with that? how about the beforementioned harms of addiction? more people would use, more would be addicted..would they not?

5/8/2008 2:51:36 PM

Quote :

"my view is that it would easier to obtain and cheaper...therefore easier to become dependent. more would try drugs because the stigma would be lifted and more would become addicted (and I am NOT talking about pot)."

Agreed, agreed, and agreed, except with regard to the stimga. More people probably would try it, those that are already addicted would have more access to it, but I think society would still treat drug addicts like drug addicts and the general public would still see the harm in being addicted to something so bad for you.

Still not the government's place to keep you off of it though.

5/8/2008 2:57:25 PM

Quote :

"legalization would reduce harms associated with drugs, not increase them"

when alcohol was illegal, the bootlegging industry was responsible for lots of problems...violence all over the place

alcohol was legalized...some people rob liquor stores but for the most part the violence amongst dealers doesnt exist (its handled by lobbyists in washington)

but there are still tons of problems with alcohol...drunk driving, domestic abuse, stupid fights, etc...legalization clearly didnt solve the problems related with alcohol consumption

5/8/2008 2:58:14 PM

^^^
domestic abuse isn't caused by alcohol, just made worse

Quote :

"more would try drugs because the stigma would be lifted and more would become addicted (and I am NOT talking about pot)."

sorry to quote myself (again?)

but

Quote :

"legalization wouldn't necessarily result in that much of an increase in use a zogby poll (10/24/07, ±3.1%) found that 99% of likely voters would not try heroin or cocaine if they were legalized only 0.6 percent said yes "

regardless

the main point remains:

Quote :

"Still not the government's place to keep you off of it though"

[Edited on May 8, 2008 at 3:01 PM. Reason : ]

5/8/2008 2:59:27 PM

Quote :

"alcohol was legalized...some people rob liquor stores but for the most part the violence amongst dealers doesnt exist (its handled by lobbyists in washington) but there are still tons of problems with alcohol...drunk driving, domestic abuse, stupid fights, etc...legalization clearly didnt solve the problems related with alcohol consumption "

But don't you think that all of the problems (runk driving, domestic abuse, stupid fights, etc) still happened when people were just secretly drinking alcohol?

5/8/2008 2:59:42 PM

Quote :

"drunk driving, domestic abuse, stupid fights, etc...legalization clearly didnt solve the problems related with alcohol consumption"

*HUR bangs head against monitor

5/8/2008 3:02:28 PM

^^
exactly

if anything, during prohibition was worse, cause you had to hide those issues for fear of getting busted for booze

kinda like now there are addicts facing many years in jail should they get one more drug conviction,

not calling to report a murder in their apartment building for fear of getting busted for drugs and torn from their family

5/8/2008 3:04:07 PM

Quote :

"But don't you think that all of the problems (runk driving, domestic abuse, stupid fights, etc) still happened when people were just secretly drinking alcohol?"

yeah but i dunno how much...there werent people getting wasted in an outdoor patio in public, they were kind of forced to keep things under wraps a little more in speakeasies or wherever...maybe if they knew alcohol was illegal they'd be less likely to go driving (maybe i'm reaching on that one)

5/8/2008 3:06:18 PM

Quote :

""legalization wouldn't necessarily result in that much of an increase in use a zogby poll (10/24/07, ±3.1%) found that 99% of likely voters would not try heroin or cocaine if they were legalized only 0.6 percent said yes ""

that poll was to people who have lived their entire lives with it being illegal...that has to have an affect on responses and I would expect those numbers. likely voters also means over the age of 18...I wonder what a similar pole done to ages 10-15 would say about drugs, but also alcohol and cigarettes.

Quote :

"Still not the government's place to keep you off of it though"

I dont disagree with the premise, I just disagree with the reality which is that some people have to be herded like sheep. They have to be told not to put the plastic bag over their head. We all would pay through the nose in healthcare and related costs if the idiots of the country did not have boundries.

5/8/2008 3:12:37 PM

^^ It is hard to say, I'll concede that there might have been less "effects of alcohol" problems when it was illegal due to having to keep it secret, but probably not very much less.

[Edited on May 8, 2008 at 3:14 PM. Reason : ]

5/8/2008 3:14:28 PM

Given the different points of view, this has been one of the more rational discussions in the SB in a while.

gg

5/8/2008 3:19:54 PM

^
are you sure?

I've been called a "nut" or something similar like a dozen times

(jk, I agree -- this is a good thread)

Quote :

"They have to be told not to put the plastic bag over their head."

well, I'm inclined to say that anyone [an adult of sound mind] that wants to put a plastic bag over their head should go for it

Quote :

"We all would pay through the nose in healthcare and related costs if the idiots of the country did not have boundries."

or we simply let them fail -- (watching others fail is a good incentive to be responsible yourself)

I don't, for a second, advocate that healthcare costs resulting from personal choices be pooled through taxes or otherwise

we don't have to have a healthcare system that operates like that



[Edited on May 8, 2008 at 3:25 PM. Reason : ]

5/8/2008 3:23:25 PM

Quote :

"They have to be told not to put the plastic bag over their head. "

Honestly; i think this is just Darwin in action

5/8/2008 3:23:43 PM

Quote :

"I dont disagree with the premise, I just disagree with the reality which is that some people have to be herded like sheep. They have to be told not to put the plastic bag over their head. We all would pay through the nose in healthcare and related costs if the idiots of the country did not have boundries."

I don't think people HAVE to be herded at all, I think for whatever reasons some people either need or want to herd them. Not that it is wrong to care about people in general, and not want them to drug their lives away, but do it at a personal level and not at a legislation level.

As far as health care, while I don't believe in the socialization of it, I believe the system is in need of reform. I don't have the answer for it though, and I won't claim to. I do think that health care wouldn't have to skyrocket due to the possibility of more people needing medical assistance due to drugs if a different system were in place.

5/8/2008 3:27:49 PM

i remember back in hs when i wanted drugs legalized....now i'm satisfied with the status quo

5/8/2008 3:31:34 PM

I agree that we shouldnt pay for the programs for people who are stupid. I also am a strong advocate of Darwinism.

HOWEVER...the realist side of me demands attention and he says if you legalize it, the bleeding hearts are going to force the rest of us to pay for the added health costs, rehabs, etc that will result....this is certainly almost a GIVEN, especially in today's political climate.

I would make a compromise....I would agree to the legalization of drugs if I could be guaranteed that my health care costs and taxes would be uneffected. We all know, even if it is deep down, that they would..possibly drastically.

5/8/2008 3:34:30 PM

^ Instead we just pay to imprison a large population of "felons" who are solely guilty of drug related crimes. This does not even count the loss in income/sales/other taxes these people would be paying if they were not rotting away in prison. Also, spending billions in tax payer dollars for the war on drugs which includes busting down the door of grandma's house who is using marijuana for medicinal purposes.

[Edited on May 8, 2008 at 3:44 PM. Reason : a]

5/8/2008 3:44:01 PM

The war on drugs probably does have a lot to do with the detriment of our society and standing in the world

5/8/2008 3:48:05 PM

Quote :

"I would agree to the legalization of drugs if I could be guaranteed that my health care costs and taxes would be uneffected."

that would be beautiful

(maybe possible, but yeah, doubtful)

Quote :

"This does not even count the loss in income/sales/other taxes these people would be paying if they were not rotting away in prison"

or hadn't lost their scholarship due to dirty pee

(hurting people's future as punishment for simply trying drugs is truly warped)

5/8/2008 3:49:22 PM

Quote :

"Also, spending billions in tax payer dollars for the war on drugs which includes busting down the door of grandma's house who is using marijuana for medicinal purposes. "

please tell me you have a link.

additionally, prisons are for those who break the law. I have no sympathy for them if they did and believe that they likely would break the law in some other fashion were drugs not involved. take all the illegals out of our prisons and there is plenty of room.

5/8/2008 3:51:08 PM

Quote :

"please tell me you have a link"

he'll find it -- it's happened (perhaps more than once)

Quote :

"prisons are for those who break the law"

right

but should the law be for those who may simply have an unfortunate medical issue? (addiction)

should the law be for those who are simply and responsibly experimenting with drugs? or self-medicating?

did you know they just released a bunch of convicted crack users from prison because of racially bigoted cocaine sentencing policies?



[Edited on May 8, 2008 at 4:06 PM. Reason : ]

5/8/2008 3:56:59 PM

Quote :

"but should the law be for those who may simply have an unfortunate medical issue? (addiction) "

this very much flies in the face of your 'personal accountability' statements made earlier.


I really cant speak on individual cases because I dont know anything about them.

5/8/2008 4:00:08 PM

Quote :

"or hadn't lost their scholarship due to dirty pee"

It is a shame that past violent criminal offenders can get financial aid but someone caught smoking a joint behind the dugout in 11th grade can not.

We sure taught them a lesson. NO EDUCATION FOR YOU!

[Edited on May 8, 2008 at 4:03 PM. Reason : a]

5/8/2008 4:01:22 PM