^ Finding it hard to contain my disgust

9/4/2010 11:29:18 AM

Quote :

"the second scenario there could be an Arkansas state law the prohibits third party recording or his actions might fall under a disorderly conduct statute."

Arkansas has no such statute. There are only 2 or 3 states in the country that have dual party consent for recording, Arkansas is not one of them. I suppose you might be able to convolute it into disorderly conduct, save for the fact that he was standing on his own fucking porch and was not being disorderly.

I'm just going to ignore your assertion that you see nothing wrong with a man for whom paramedics were called being tased 3 times in his own home after telling the police to leave his property. Again, not only are both of these cases clearly morally unconscionable, they're also quite clearly gross violations of citizens civil rights that will result in significant legal damages being paid. If you can't see that and see why behavior like this by law enforcement needs to have major repercussions then you're too far removed from reality to have a rational discussion with.

9/5/2010 11:05:33 AM

^ Could not have said it better myself

9/5/2010 11:22:07 AM

After watching the video again, it appears the officers where there in reference a suicidal subject who made threats to shoot himself in the head. At this point, officers have the right to take a person in to custody (even without a commitment order); while not under arrest, you can use force to take that person into custody.

The subject was repeatedly told to place his hands behind his back; he passively resists by sitting on the couch (a no tase situation). When he keeps refusing and then stands up and says "fuck you," you are now actively assaultive. Bear in mind that an assault does not have to be physical force, it can be the the threat of physical violence.

While a level of force against another has to be reasonable; because someone is handcuffed does not mean that force cannot be used. In the video, the man, even handcuffed is able to freely kick potentially put EMS and others in danger of being assaulted. If you believe that a handcuffed person, kicking with 2 taser probes in him cannot harm you, you are mistaken.

I also believe there is no case for civil liability. Graham v. Connor created the reasonable officer standard. Given the totality of the circumstances, you have to balance to the reasonableness of the seizure (threats to kill himself, actively resisting) v. the states stake (threat to himself or others) in claims of excessive force.

Again, its a reasonable, trained officer not that of a reasonable person.

Lastly, if law enforcement has a reasonable and articulable right to be on ones own private property (i.e. a 911 call) you cannot make the leave. LE has the right to check the welfare of the parties involved and to determine that no threat to public safety exists.

9/5/2010 6:20:56 PM

Quote :

"After watching the video again, it appears the officers where there in reference a suicidal subject who made threats to shoot himself in the head."

You've never said "Why don't I just shoot myself in the head?" in a way that wasn't a declaration of intent to commit suicide? lol

I think the old guy was clearly just frustrated with the entire scenario but the cops wouldn't back down. They had no common sense.

9/5/2010 6:26:27 PM

Quote :

"Again, not only are both of these cases clearly morally unconscionable, they're also quite clearly gross violations of citizens civil rights that will result in significant legal damages being paid."

Kurtis636

I especially liked this part. I, too, believe that the citizens will win when/if these cases are taken to court--the Taser case, in particular.

Let me reiterate, I am a law-and-order guy and I don't like that we've become on overly litigious society (or at least an often frivolously litigious society, it seems), but law enforcement officers must be continually reminded that their positions exist only to protect and serve the people--not to pump up their egos, deliver "street justice" or enforce their personal morality, or take sadistic pleasure in inflicting pain on suspects.

We give law enforcement officers a great deal of power in our society--and we should expect more of them. To support these high expectations of law enforcement officers, we should increase education and training requirements; increase funding for equipment and supplies; increase training with, development of, and use of less-than-lethal weapons; and increase salaries. These changes could--and I hope would--improve law enforcement-citizen interactions.

Quote :

"While a level of force against another has to be reasonable; because someone is handcuffed does not mean that force cannot be used. In the video, the man, even handcuffed is able to freely kick potentially put EMS and others in danger of being assaulted."

Restricted

My understanding is that the man at issue had already been treated for his minor scraped knee wound or refused treatment, which is his right. Why couldn't those around him--while he was lying handcuffed on the floor--simply have backed up a little?

Quote :

"Lastly, if law enforcement has a reasonable and articulable right to be on ones own private property (i.e. a 911 call) you cannot make the leave. LE has the right to check the welfare of the parties involved and to determine that no threat to public safety exists."

Restricted

And there are various ways to accomplish welfare checks. If law enforcement is concerned about their liability in a situation like the one at issue, simply have the guy and/or his wife sign a form stating that they had been offered and encouraged to seek medical care but they refused. I don't think the soundness of mind of the man's wife was in question--surely she could have signed such a liability release form, right?

And another often ignored fact is that law enforcement officers use these encounters to check into people's lives and get into their homes. It establishes probable cause for all sorts of intrusions. Now, I'm not suggesting that nothing good ever came out of this--killers have been caught for having a tail light out and so on--but a lot of undesirable outcomes also occur from such an approach.

9/5/2010 7:19:29 PM