three pages

OMG DOUBLE POST

5/22/2008 5:14:16 PM

how is it ignorance. they busted someone with pot and asked her to buy a fucking handgun

5/22/2008 5:15:44 PM

well, then i'll take the viewpoint that they're trying to keep people out of prison where their lives would be misery and are trying to give them a chance at doing something for the good of the community and putting their life back on track

i mean, really, let's spin it every which way so it seems like this is the only time this has ever happened and that the cops are big bad meanie heads!!!!1

simple version:
1.) chick got caught breaking a law
2.) chick was given a choice
3.) chick made a choice
4.) chick didn't follow the rules
5.) chick died
6.) TWW has multi-page debate about the evils of pot and cops

[Edited on May 22, 2008 at 5:18 PM. Reason : .]

5/22/2008 5:17:50 PM

Quote :

"i'm sorry that you're irritated by an attempt to protect people from others"

no, i don't like it when we're overly protected from ourselves. like i said, i don't smoke pot,.. have tried it in the past... its not for me. but if i were to want to come home and hit a bong while watching family guy to relax from a stressful day, then i should be able to. I am for harsh drug penalties for abuse and misuse.

Quote :

"move somewhere else"

lolz, if you dont' like er cuntry then you ken just git out.

Quote :

"putting their life back on track "

you can't say that people like this have their life off track!

[Edited on May 22, 2008 at 5:19 PM. Reason : ..]

5/22/2008 5:18:26 PM

^^ because TPD = DEA

yeah well when you are under intense pressure and scared as fuck lets see you think straight

you honestly think those cops didnt try to use fear as a tactic to get her to comply???

hell they did that shit to me over a drinking ticket

[Edited on May 22, 2008 at 5:23 PM. Reason : .]

5/22/2008 5:19:52 PM

Quote :

"you can't say that people like this have their life off track! "

jeez, you're missing my point entirely...i'm jumping to the other end of the spectrum where we pretend like the cops were good-hearted and generous people, since the obvious trend is to assume that they're just lazy or evil or whatever the hell jay seems to think

the people who are always pissed at how evil cops are are the ones who are always breaking the law...surprise!

Quote :

"yeah well when you are under intense pressure and scared as fuck lets see you think straight you honestly think those cops didnt try to use fear as a tactic to get her to comply???"

1.) if i put myself the position without realizing the OBVIOUS consequences, then i probably can't think straight in any "normal" situation
2.) is jail time a REAL and LEGAL possibility of being caught in her position? since the answer is "yes" (and it is), all they did was give her the worst-case scenario...if she wanted a more realistic viewpoint she should have called a lawyer, like i'm quite sure they told her she could

[Edited on May 22, 2008 at 5:25 PM. Reason : .]

5/22/2008 5:23:27 PM

yeah and while i understand what youre saying, were 2 completely different people and well never agree on this. ill go ahead and accept that. your right and wrong is legal/illegal, and mine is moral/immoral

i think she was doing nothing immoral and ended up dying over it, and to me thats fucked up

you think she was doing something illegal and died because of her own decision, therefore its her own fault. i completely get that, i just dont agree with it.

5/22/2008 5:38:09 PM

i haven't said one goddamned thing about cops, i've been talking about the laws

5/22/2008 5:50:07 PM

Quote :

"i think she was doing nothing immoral and ended up dying over it, and to me thats fucked up you think she was doing something illegal and died because of her own decision, therefore its her own fault. i completely get that, i just dont agree with it."

no, you DON'T completely get "that"...i didn't once say that she was doing ANYTHING immoral (in fact, i specifically said i didn't think smoking weed was immoral, just that it's ILLEGAL)...she died because some douchebag drug dealers shot her, not because she broke the law...you're arguing with other people, not me, and yet pretending like you're responding to my posts

she did NOT deserve to die, but no one PUT her in the situation...what i'm saying is that the events that led to her death were the results of her own informed choices...she CHOSE to break the law (whether you agree with the law or not, she knew what she was doing) and she CHOSE to act an undercover agent to avoid jail time (after CHOOSING not to speak with a lawyer) and she CHOSE to (supposedly) break the guidelines they had in place to protect her from being harmed...do you really disagree with any of these? are you saying she was forced into ANY of it? because i'm basing my viewpoint on FACTS, unless i'm missing something...your OPINION of how the cops treated her are just hot air blowing through your lips because you have absolutely zilch in the way of proof

Quote :

"i haven't said one goddamned thing about cops, i've been talking about the laws"

you're right, you haven't...you responded to a sentence i was using as sarcasm against jay's "cops are evil" rant, and i responded in turn...i didn't mean to imply you had said anything about the cops

5/22/2008 6:21:12 PM

I don't think those were informed choices, more like "do what I tell you or face XX years hard time", more like extortion. I mean at the end of the day the drug dealers are the ones that killed her, not the cops.

The fucked up thing is that they get to sit on a high horse and act like she is somehow responsible for her own murder. They sent her in to that situation, they wanted to use her as a witness and completely took advantage of it. She died and now they will not even accept responsibility for that.

5/22/2008 6:33:00 PM

Quote :

"I don't think those were informed choices, more like "do what I tell you or face XX years hard time", more like extortion. I mean at the end of the day the drug dealers are the ones that killed her, not the cops."

but you don't KNOW that's how it was, so YOU'RE just blowing hot air, too...unless you have sources that imply she was coerced, you speak out of your opinion, while the FACTS indicate she made the choices herself

Quote :

"The fucked up thing is that they get to sit on a high horse and act like she is somehow responsible for her own murder. They sent her in to that situation, they wanted to use her as a witness and completely took advantage of it. She died and now they will not even accept responsibility for that."

i think you're forgetting that she (supposedly) deviated from her guidelines and rules that were set to protect her...yes, she might have done exactly as she was told and still been killed, but it's entirely realistic to assume that the cops are telling the truth (as much as you obviously hate men and women in uniform...but then, i suspect you've been on the booking end of them so many times that it's bound to cloud your judgment)

also, you keep forgetting that she didn't consult a lawyer...so again, if you're implying the violated her miranda rights (in which case, you should probably be referring to something akin to proof), you're just huffing and puffing and pissing and moaning

5/22/2008 6:36:33 PM

Quote :

"but you don't KNOW that's how it was, so YOU'RE just blowing hot air, too...unless you have sources that imply she was coerced, you speak out of your opinion, while the FACTS indicate she made the choices herself"

Actually there are no facts to indicate she wasn't coerced so now you're just blowing hot air.

Quote :

"i think you're forgetting that she (supposedly) deviated from her guidelines and rules that were set to protect her...yes, she might have done exactly as she was told and still been killed, but it's entirely realistic to assume that the cops are telling the truth (as much as you obviously hate men and women in uniform...but then, i suspect you've been on the booking end of them so many times that it's bound to cloud your judgment) also, you keep forgetting that she didn't consult a lawyer...so again, if you're implying the violated her miranda rights (in which case, you should probably be referring to something akin to proof), you're just huffing and puffing and pissing and moaning"

I seriously doubt that the cops are telling the truth here. Not so much because I hate cops, but because they're so vague with that statement and it just sounds like they're trying to cover their asses. They sent her into a situation she was completely unprepared to handle. They have to assume some responsibility there. I know it was her fault for getting caught and yada yada yada, but sending someone into a situation where she can get killed without any sort of backup is just a stupid idea. She was also not convicted of having anything more than marijuana so the police had no qualification for making her buy a gun and 2 large amounts of hard drugs. People who deal with marijuana are completely different than people who deal with hard drugs and there is absolutely no excuse for sending her into that situation. That part is completely indefensible. If they had really wanted to, they could have gotten someone convicted of having cocaine or something to do this. It was stupid and now this girl is dead because of it.

If there's anyone out there who truly believes this is the sole fault of the girl and doesn't lie in the cops' hands at all then you are truly one of the biggest douche bags in the world.

5/22/2008 6:57:10 PM

Quote :

"Actually there are no facts to indicate she wasn't coerced so now you're just blowing hot air."

with a user name like yours and your statements, it's people like you that give pot users a bad name...you're seriously implying that there is a GREATER likelihood that the officers broke the law than obeyed it? you honest-to-god think they BROKE THE LAW? i'm not saying they might not have played in the gray areas, but coercion is out-and-out illegal...you're saying that in lieu of any proof to the otherwise, we should assume the officers broke the law? you're not exactly making a good case for stoners, here

Quote :

"I seriously doubt that the cops are telling the truth here. Not so much because I hate cops, but because they're so vague with that statement and it just sounds like they're trying to cover their asses. They sent her into a situation she was completely unprepared to handle. They have to assume some responsibility there. I know it was her fault for getting caught and yada yada yada, but sending someone into a situation where she can get killed without any sort of backup is just a stupid idea. She was also not convicted of having anything more than marijuana so the police had no qualification for making her buy a gun and 2 large amounts of hard drugs. People who deal with marijuana are completely different than people who deal with hard drugs and there is absolutely no excuse for sending her into that situation. That part is completely indefensible. If they had really wanted to, they could have gotten someone convicted of having cocaine or something to do this. It was stupid and now this girl is dead because of it."

thinking that this was ill-advised and flat out calling them liars are two different things...i don't think anyone is saying that she was a candidate for best undercover civilian of the year, but you're completely ignoring the fact that she made the choice...yes, the poor girl is dead, but it is 100% because of her CHOICES that she was in the situation at all (if you're even remotely sober, please try to comprehend the difference between saying she deserved it and noting the FACT that she put herself into the situation of her volition...i know it's probably hard for you to separate, but do at least give it a shot, eh?)

Quote :

"If there's anyone out there who truly believes this is the sole fault of the girl and doesn't lie in the cops' hands at all then you are truly one of the biggest douche bags in the world."

i do believe that the very fact that she ended up in this situation in the first place is the SOLE fault of the girl...did she or did she not knowingly break the law? did she or did she not decline a lawyer? did she or did she not agree to do this in lieu of jail time? unless you have proof to the otherwise, it is reasonable to assume that the officers of the law followed the law in this course of events...unless, of course, you've got some sort of proof that policemen as a whole are more apt to coerce than follow the law as it is written...if you don't, then your arguments are just a bitter and pathetic attempt to justify your own stupid mistakes and the fact that you would probably make them in the same situation

again, let me try to spell it out for the dumbasses out there who STILL can't comprehend it:

1.) i DON'T think smoking pot is immoral, and i don't think you're going to go to hell for it, and i don't think it belongs in the same category as "hard" drugs like coke and heroin
2.) i DON'T think the girl "deserved" to die for smoking pot
3.) i DO think that she is the one who put herself in the situation to begin with
4.) i DO think it's reasonable to assume that an officer of the law is more likely to follow the law, ESPECIALLY in cases like this (as opposed, to say, jaywalking)
5.) i DO think that's asinine to get pissy and whiny about how much you hate cops simply because you keep doing the same stupid law-breaking...i have never received a DUI (or DWI, i forget which is which), and i have never been caught with illegal drugs, therefore i stand on the legal high ground compared to you poor fuckers who keep making mistakes and getting caught

5/22/2008 8:08:56 PM

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said, except for your unwavering support of the morality of police officers. You seem to think that they are more than human and infallible to the same pressures we mere mortals face when anyone who picks up a newspaper sees that they are just as corrupt and unjust as anyone else. Let me tell you I've never even been caught for doing anything but driving over the speed limit (the cop wrote the ticket for 15 over when I was clearly going no more than 10 over with witnesses in the car and I assume he did this for some petty reason purposefully because no normal person would be that big of a dick but whatever) so I have no real reason to hate cops other than the corruptness I see in the media everyday. These are people and if you think that they won't lie to save their asses you are completely wrong. If anything, I bet they lie more because they are backed up by the government in whatever they say. I'm not saying that all cops are bad and I'm sure there are many fine individuals who serve in the police force. But your blind backing of whatever they do is foolish at best considering the many instances that they HAVE BEEN CAUGHT BEFORE doing illegal things.

The situation that THEY CHOSE to put her in was completely negligent at best. It'd be like allowing a 10 year old to drive a car. Sure, they might CHOOSE to do it and it's completely possible that they'll come out alive, but if they're killed out on the road it's still your fault for letting them drive in the first place knowing the dangers that they're going to face. She was stupid for not consulting with a lawyer first definitely, but at some point you know the situation occurred where the conversation was like...

"So, you can either go to jail with this felony on your record that will completely fuck up your life forever, or you can do this for us and we'll make sure you're taken care of when the time comes for your sentencing."

Honestly, who is going to be thinking clearly about the dangers that could possibly lie ahead when the only other option you're presented with will assuredly fuck up your life beyond all doubt?

5/22/2008 8:38:23 PM

Hey let's convince some stoner chick to buy 2 ounces of cocaine and a handgun while wearing a wire and think only good will come from this.

You have to be a real piece of shit to coerce a girl in a situation like that.

You got to be an even bigger piece of shit to back and defend the reasoning just bc it's legal.



[Edited on May 22, 2008 at 8:53 PM. Reason : .]

5/22/2008 8:42:15 PM

Actually, when you put it that way I'd have to agree with quagmire.

5/22/2008 8:46:46 PM

more than example of how fucked up the cops are, this is a PRIME example of how stupid drug laws are. that has been my only point

(more like LAWLS, AMIRITE!!!!11??)

5/22/2008 9:00:25 PM

Quote :

"I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said, except for your unwavering support of the morality of police officers. You seem to think that they are more than human and infallible to the same pressures we mere mortals face when anyone who picks up a newspaper sees that they are just as corrupt and unjust as anyone else."

okay, i didn't mean to come off as having "unwavering support" for the morality of police officers...i know they're human, and prone to making the same mistakes everyone else does...what i'm saying, though, is that i think it's unfairly judgmental to AUTOMATICALLY assume that, just because an "innocent" woman died, their actions MUST have been immoral

there are dirty cops, corrupt cops, lazy cops, and good cops...sometimes shit happens and it's not always because one of the worthless cops fucked up...assuming that they MUST be bad officers doesn't say much for our justice system, does it? yes, i'm making the assumption that the officers involved, while they may have exercised poor judgment, did not break the law...and if they didn't break the law, i don't see how you can condemn them without any FACTS whatsoever supporting your condemnation

Quote :

"Let me tell you I've never even been caught for doing anything but driving over the speed limit (the cop wrote the ticket for 15 over when I was clearly going no more than 10 over with witnesses in the car and I assume he did this for some petty reason purposefully because no normal person would be that big of a dick but whatever) so I have no real reason to hate cops other than the corruptness I see in the media everyday. These are people and if you think that they won't lie to save their asses you are completely wrong. If anything, I bet they lie more because they are backed up by the government in whatever they say. I'm not saying that all cops are bad and I'm sure there are many fine individuals who serve in the police force. But your blind backing of whatever they do is foolish at best considering the many instances that they HAVE BEEN CAUGHT BEFORE doing illegal things."

this is the problem...you have a bad experience with ONE cop and so you're determined to see the bad wherever you can...if you honestly trust whatever you read in the paper, you're intentionally naive and blind...furthermore, if you assume that the instances you read about in these journalistic pieces you cherish so much represent the whole by and large of the united states' police force, then i really can't give your opinion much credit because it's backed entirely by prejudice

Quote :

"The situation that THEY CHOSE to put her in was completely negligent at best. It'd be like allowing a 10 year old to drive a car. Sure, they might CHOOSE to do it and it's completely possible that they'll come out alive, but if they're killed out on the road it's still your fault for letting them drive in the first place knowing the dangers that they're going to face. She was stupid for not consulting with a lawyer first definitely, but at some point you know the situation occurred where the conversation was like... "So, you can either go to jail with this felony on your record that will completely fuck up your life forever, or you can do this for us and we'll make sure you're taken care of when the time comes for your sentencing." Honestly, who is going to be thinking clearly about the dangers that could possibly lie ahead when the only other option you're presented with will assuredly fuck up your life beyond all doubt?"

the 10-year-old driving a car is a poor analogy because that is 100% illegal, while the scenario you outlined, while despicable if it happened, is not necessarily illegal...i'm not disagreeing with you that it's POSSIBLE that it went like that, or even that there's a significant chance that it happened like that...what i'm saying is that you're being just as prejudiced against the officers as you claim i'm being (or, at least, that some are being) against the girl who died...the officers, at least, were doing their jobs as they've been given leave to do it, while the girl was doing nothing but willingly and knowingly breaking the law

i daresay that we on here know more about the law than a lot of lesser-educated people, and that alone would make most of us less likely to put up with police semantics...but IF she was given the option for a lawyer (which, i don't suppose we know for a FACT she was or wasn't) and IF she declined (again, we assume she did), then who do you blame? making a snap decision because you're afraid doesn't release you from the consequences of that decision because you're still the person in charge...as long as those cops did not FORCE her do this, then her choice was her choice and you can't argue that she didn't make it (again, we have to assume certain things...in lieu of any evidence to the contrary, i think we have to assume that the officers followed the law literally if not in spirit, and did not violate the girl's rights)

Quote :

"You have to be a real piece of shit to coerce a girl in a situation like that. You got to be an even bigger piece of shit to back and defend the reasoning just bc it's legal."

look, kid, pay attention...coercion isn't legal, so you're either saying they coerced her and broke the law, or followed the law and she made her choice...you can't have it both ways

Quote :

"more than example of how fucked up the cops are, this is a PRIME example of how stupid drug laws are. that has been my only point"

i don't necessarily disagree with you, though the only exception that i have with the drug laws is marijuana...i believe wholeheartedly that "hard" drugs like heroin and cocaine have no business being accessible to the general public because they are downright dangerous...if you want to off yourself, buy a gun and blow your brains out, don't waste time with crack...but since smoking weed isn't going to do that and probably won't make you any more likely to hurt someone else, pot should be legalized and taxed heavily

i really am trying to make it clear that this is an honest-to-God tragedy...the girl did nothing to DESERVE death, but shit happens...we keep forgetting to mention that she supposedly went against the rules of her undercover role...IF she was given a genuine chance to speak with a lawyer and IF the cops didn't coerce her and IF she went against what she was told to do, then NO ONE is to blame but herself for her situation, end of story

but IF she was not given the chance to speak with a lawyer or IF she was coerced and IF she did exactly as she was told, then i think the cops should be held accountable for manslaughter, as that's what happened

but lacking any proof to dispute what they're saying (and IMStoned420 is right - they're in a position where they can lie and have little chance at being caught while saving their own skins), i think it's unfair to judge them as if any of us could truly KNOW what happened

the ABSOLUTE truth of the matter is that those cops didn't physically kill her, that the drug dealers did...and i hope they dangle at the end of a rope and burn in hell for it

[Edited on May 22, 2008 at 9:42 PM. Reason : .]

5/22/2008 9:37:54 PM

yeah wed probably need to find out how hard the police pushed to get her to do it, they arent gonna tell the truth, and shes dead....so we might never know

5/22/2008 9:41:32 PM

Quote :

"yeah wed probably need to find out how hard the police pushed to get her to do it, they arent gonna tell the truth, and shes dead....so we might never know"

exactly...i'm not saying they're telling the truth, because they can lie and no one is around to dispute them...but accidents DO happen and there are such a thing as good cops, so unfair to assume they "killed" her without any evidence

they'll get what's coming to them if they deserve it...and yes, i hate injustice as much as the next guy

5/22/2008 9:43:27 PM

i see what youre saying....it boils down to hard evidence, and the only evidence out there is against her for having 20+ grams of pot and agreeing to go through with the deal

damn shoulda just called up the lawyer.....cant trust the police

[Edited on May 22, 2008 at 9:54 PM. Reason : .]

5/22/2008 9:49:05 PM

I don't know if we're on the same page, but we're at least reading the same book. I don't think we're gonna agree anymore than where we're at and while I disagree slightly with your opinion I respect it. You've at least admitted that it's sad that this girl died unlike some of the other douche bags in this thread.

5/22/2008 9:54:40 PM

agreement on the wolfweb?

WORST THREAD EVER

5/22/2008 10:37:26 PM

I've always thought that if you don't start nothin', won't be nothin'.

I've also based my life on the ideologies brought up in Men In Black.

5/22/2008 10:40:14 PM

Quote :

"^^ they gave her an option. if the police were really harsh, they would have just given her the jailtime. nobody forced her to be an informant, and if they gave her a handgun, then they were at least a little concerned for her safety. "

this is just dumb. yea they gave her an "option" although most people probably don't say no to something police propose and also may not be aware of their rights. i'm pretty sure the police had the upper hand here. i dunno though

5/22/2008 10:49:09 PM

Quote :

"No More Drug War"

thats all i needed to read to not waste my time readin anymore of that bullshit


haha no more drug war eh? thats the way to fix the worlds problems

5/22/2008 10:54:53 PM

its a shame this happened because there really arent enough chicks that burn chronic.


i'll bet she was hot too. hot chicks that smoke weed should have get out of jail free cards for weed related charges

5/22/2008 10:57:10 PM

Yeah, they may have given her the option but to say she wasn't coerced is laughable. It definitely went somewhere along the lines of this: Hey Rachel, you can either go to jail and ruin your life on felony drug charges even though it appears you are a decent human being, or you can help us with a little,itsy-bitsy, teeny favor. The only reason I read most of this thread was because this RSXTypeS guy is such a fucking idiot. My head hurts after trying to understand his logic in any of his posts in this thread. Isn't there a garage forum or something he got lost from? People who think that ANYONE deserves to die because of something other than physically harming another person are backwards rednecks who make usernames after cars they like or own on message boards.

5/23/2008 12:41:24 PM

She probably forgot to say "abracadabra"

5/23/2008 12:49:54 PM

Quote :

"i'll bet she was hot too."

She obviously decent looking and could cook.

Quote :

"It was a somber sight tonight, Friday May 9th, as friends of Rachel Hoffman got together to remember the life of a friend they say will never be forgotten. Hoffman graduated from Florida State University in August 2007. The vibrant 23 year-old woman from Clearwater Beach is described by her friends as an amazing person with a bright smile, who never judged anyone. They say among many things Hoffman loved to cook, travel, and loved music festivals. "Rachel was a really outgoing, adventurous, open-minded woman that you know wanted to see the world and really wanted to experience what the world had to offer," said Paul Levine, Rachel Hoffman's friend. "She loved to cook and she loved to please, she loved making other people happy by cooking for them. She was an amazing cook...all the time," said JB Lawrence, Rachel Hoffman's friend. Friends say her future was bright. They say she had a lot of potential and much to offer the world. Hoffman was planning on going to Phoenix, Arizona to attend culinary school. Many of her friends are in shock and wouldn't comment on camera...but say she was a giving person who was involved in the community."

5/23/2008 12:58:16 PM

Quote :

"I seriously doubt that the cops are telling the truth here."

lol

Quote :

"described by her friends as an amazing person with a bright smile, who never judged anyone."

no shit. stoners tend to smile and laugh a lot.

Quote :

"She loved to cook and she loved to please, she loved making other people happy by cooking for them. She was an amazing cook...all the time"

i.e. she and her friends always had the munchies.

[Edited on May 23, 2008 at 1:04 PM. Reason : .]

5/23/2008 1:02:14 PM

^I fuckin lol'd out loud

5/23/2008 1:32:33 PM

I want to hear from GenghisJohn.

5/23/2008 2:13:25 PM

Quote :

"no shit. stoners tend to smile and laugh a lot."

Yes. What a horrible, horrible quality for a human being to have. Surely one that they deserve to die for. Asshole.

5/23/2008 5:27:37 PM

If marijuana was legal this whole mess could've been avoided

5/23/2008 5:31:01 PM

i can't stand potheads and pot-culture, but the way we as a society deal with it is pretty absurd.

5/23/2008 5:38:54 PM

The simple fact is the police took a non-violent criminal and knowingly directed her into a violent (handgun) situation.

5/27/2008 9:31:10 PM

OH WE BACK™

6/4/2008 7:51:06 PM

can this die or something

you fuckin drug users really stick together i swear

6/4/2008 7:53:03 PM

I don't do drugs.

6/4/2008 10:14:48 PM

ha bullshit

6/4/2008 10:20:59 PM

Why don't you believe me?

6/4/2008 10:25:54 PM