http://pageoneq.com/news/2008/haganmailer1023.html
http://www.pageoneq.com/images/ncgop3q.jpg

This sort of stuff just burns me up. This election is supposed to be about so many different and important issues and Dole & her backers are trying to turn it into a hate-fest talking about "radical homosexual agendas" & "Godless Americans." I've been a supporter of Kay's for a while now, but this just pushed me over the edge and I'll be donating to the campaign soon. I profoundly hope Kay Hagan takes a strong stand against this sort of issue-avoiding hate-mongering politics.

10/27/2008 6:46:08 PM

She's desperately trying to hold onto her seat, but slowly but surely, she's watching it slip through her fingers.


No surprise that she's resorted to this. But unfortunately for her, people seem to be getting really sick of the bullshit, and reacting in the opposite manor in which she had hoped.

10/27/2008 6:50:02 PM

Quote :

"reacting in the opposite manor in which she had hoped."

If not for those hate-mongering, scare tactic, issue distracting Dole ads I would have only voted for Kay. Since my last post I have donated, and am looking at how I can volunteer.

10/27/2008 8:41:51 PM

hahahahaah

10/27/2008 10:02:17 PM

i fail

[Edited on October 27, 2008 at 10:51 PM. Reason : .]

10/27/2008 10:51:00 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/29/dole-ad-fabricates-audio_n_138874.html

damn!

10/29/2008 1:15:13 PM

let me quote my republican father

Quote :

"I AM NOT VOTING FOR ELIZABETH DOIL!! ....................(obscure rambling and obscenities)"

10/29/2008 1:16:37 PM

This is despicable horse shit man.

Kay Hagan's camp is PISSED. She's pretty religious and a Sunday school teacher so I can see why she's affronted that Dole tried this. I saw something about ministers coming out to support her and a cease and desist ordered by her legal representation against Dole for illegal defamation.

Damn!

10/29/2008 2:33:20 PM

My biggest problem with this ad is that it perpetuates the mentality that Atheists are obviously wrong and shouldn't be listened to.

Dole is pandering to the far right in the hopes that they'll come out and vote for her, instead of staying home.

Comments are funny on CNN...

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/29/doles-godless-ad-causes-stir/#comments



[Edited on October 29, 2008 at 2:50 PM. Reason : .]

10/29/2008 2:44:29 PM

I dream of the day that people who don't believe in sky fairies are treated as citizens when it comes to these debates. I'd love to see politicians be able to admit they aren't religious (there have to be some who've faked it) win elections, the presidency, etc.

10/29/2008 2:48:42 PM

^

There's only one openly atheist politician in all of congress and guess which state he is from.

10/29/2008 2:49:17 PM

im a southern baptist i hate faggots just as much as anyone


but it just goes to show how far out of touch dole is with NC if she thinks that gay marriage and religion weigh this heavily in our decisions

maybe she should come around a little more often, we drive cars now

10/29/2008 5:48:44 PM

^ gg

10/29/2008 5:53:25 PM

10/29/2008 9:31:53 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/29/campbell.brown.dole/index.html

embed function apparently doesn't work so well....

[Edited on October 29, 2008 at 10:17 PM. Reason : .]

10/29/2008 10:16:27 PM

Quote :

"im a southern baptist i hate faggots just as much as anyone but it just goes to show how far out of touch dole is with NC if she thinks that gay marriage and religion weigh this heavily in our decisions "

except substitute souther baptist with methodist

10/29/2008 10:47:56 PM

not to derail the thread but....

you state you're a christian

yet you openly profess to "hate faggots." how christian of you!

wwjd?

but anyway, fuck liddy dole

[Edited on October 29, 2008 at 11:00 PM. Reason : .]

10/29/2008 10:57:48 PM

Quote :

" There's only one openly atheist politician in all of congress and guess which state he is from."

*admitted* atheist politician. That was my point. I bet there's more than 1, in truth.

10/29/2008 11:21:48 PM

gg Campbell Brown

10/29/2008 11:39:41 PM

I caught a bit of Hagan's response on WRAL tonight, and it was disappointing..... Hagan basically backed off completely and claimed that she didn't know who she was talking to or who she was getting money from. Said something like "i don't vet everybody I take money from, and I won't accept money from this group"

I can see where she's coming from - even for a liberal Democrat, it can be political suicide to associate closely or even loosely with atheists. But it would still be nice to see Hagan say "I have met with this group, because they are Americans too and deserve to have a voice just like everyone else in the state and country. If they want to donate to my campaign, I will accept their donations"

[Edited on October 29, 2008 at 11:47 PM. Reason : to]

10/29/2008 11:40:06 PM

Voting against Dole this year was almost as fulfilling as voting against Bush in 2004.

10/29/2008 11:46:21 PM

^^ I agree.... but unfortunately, in a tight race, if she were to say that, Dole would jump all over it, and use her words against her.

And with an electorate that is less than issues focused, it could really have an affect on how the election turned out.

10/29/2008 11:59:58 PM

Quote :

"not to derail the thread but.... you state you're a christian yet you openly profess to "hate faggots." how christian of you! "

except that despite that the bible teaches that we should hate no one, all are equal in Gods eyes

my mentality espouses a hatred of homosexuality

again proving my point, my religion has little to do with a majority of my perspectives

dont try to pull the "good christian" card on me bro, ill fuck you up

10/30/2008 12:02:27 AM

Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
- Leviticus

10/30/2008 12:06:42 AM

Yes, lies with another man are detestable. But they're okay with women.

10/30/2008 12:57:09 AM

^Aren't we all?

10/30/2008 1:19:43 AM

Quote :

"I dream of the day that people who don't believe in sky fairies are treated as citizens when it comes to these debates."

This is my biggest problem with the majority of non-religious people.

What's the point of making fun of religious people with comments like "sky fairies"? You're an atheist, fine, that's good for you. But what gives you the right to belittle somebody's beliefs like that?

And before you come back with the "religious nutjob moonbat batshit crazies on the right disrespect anybody that doesn't believe what they believe so why should we respect them" argument, I will say grow the fuck up. What Dole is doing is wrong, no question, and what many other Christians do with regards to non-believers is wrong. But it doesn't help the atheist cause when people like you tell Christians they're nutjobs for believing what they believe and that they believe in "sky fairies."

10/30/2008 1:43:55 PM

^Because it's true?

How is what you believe any more credible than believing in Santa Claus?

And what gives me the right? What gives you the right to spread ignorance and intolerance of the reality of the world across America? You raise children to believe in myths as truth. You raise children to ignore scientific evidence in favor of blind faith.

[Edited on October 30, 2008 at 1:54 PM. Reason : ]

10/30/2008 1:53:26 PM

Hey just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean I can't believe in Santa Clause

10/30/2008 2:01:17 PM

Quote :

"What's the point of making fun of religious people with comments like "sky fairies"? You're an atheist, fine, that's good for you. But what gives you the right to belittle somebody's beliefs like that?"

ummm, how is "sky fairies" belittling? If a person doesn't believe in a god, then what do you expect them to say? Sky fairies, the Invisible Man in the Sky, God, deity, whatever - they all mean the same thing.

not to mention, "what gives you the right"? The Freedom of Speech gives us the right, that's what.

10/30/2008 2:04:04 PM

Quote :

"Hey just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean I can't believe in Santa Clause"

Hey, man, believe in Santa Clause, just don't make it so that all people who hold office in the United States have to believe in Santa Clause, or claim that we have to "teach the controversy" in school about whether or not Santa Clause exists, or say that Gay people can't celebrate Christmas because it's against the teachings of Santa Clause, or etc.

10/30/2008 2:06:25 PM

Quote :

"ummm, how is "sky fairies" belittling? If a person doesn't believe in a god, then what do you expect them to say? Sky fairies, the Invisible Man in the Sky, God, deity, whatever - they all mean the same thing. "

You expect them to be respectful and not demean someone's beliefs by equating them to something out of a children's fantasy novel.

10/30/2008 2:09:25 PM

^What's the difference?

I mean.... Really?

A giant being in the sky that no one can ever see. He created everything in 7 days. He created people. There was this one man who lived inside a whale. There was a snake and he could talk. There was a man who lived to be 900 years old and he built a giant boat with every animal on it.

How is that any different from Jack the Beanstalk or ancient Greek Myth?

10/30/2008 2:16:48 PM

If you can tell me how "sky fairy" is at all an unfair description for a deity that lives outside of the planet and is mythologically known to live in the sky (and most gods in the last few thousand years fit that bill), then I'd like to know.

As far as I can tell, whether you want to say "sky fairy" or "god," they're both pretty equal. It's not meant as an insult, per se, it's just a name that fits them as well as anything else.

Quote :

"You expect them to be respectful and not demean someone's beliefs by equating them to something out of a children's fantasy novel."

If you can tell me, also, why I should treat Jesus being born of a virgin and rising from the grave, or Vishnu killing Vritra with Indra, or the earth being born on the back of a turtle, Zeus and Hera having a child named Hercules, or goldilocks and the 3 bears any differently, I'd love to hear that.

[Edited on October 30, 2008 at 2:25 PM. Reason : .]

10/30/2008 2:20:43 PM

George....YOU ROCK!!

10/30/2008 2:34:29 PM

Quote :

"^Because it's true? How is what you believe any more credible than believing in Santa Claus?"

Do you run up to little kids at the mall who sit on Santa Claus' knee and say, "What the fuck are you doing kid? You know that guy isn't really Santa Claus right? And that there isn't actually a Santa Claus, it's just your mom and dad putting his name on your presents that you open on Christmas morning."

I don't understand why every atheist or agnostic in the world feels it's their duty to go around and tell everybody else how wrong they are. What are you really gaining out of it? A sense of superiority? How does my belief, or anybody else's belief in God, affect you in ANY way? For the record, I don't agree with the way a lot of Christian organizations force their message on other people either but two wrongs don't exactly make a right.

Quote :

"not to mention, "what gives you the right"? The Freedom of Speech gives us the right, that's what."

Good for you. Some of you were wondering why politicians can't come out and be openly atheist and win an election. I dislike atheists as a whole, not because of their disbelief in God - I could give two shits what somebody else thinks - but because they come across as assholes. "You're a fucking moron for believing in that sky fairy, when will you wake up you stupid Christian moonbats?" Yeah, you have the right to say whatever the hell you want to say, that still doesn't make it right.

10/30/2008 3:54:20 PM

Quote :

"Do you run up to little kids at the mall who sit on Santa Claus' knee and say, "What the fuck are you doing kid? You know that guy isn't really Santa Claus right? And that there isn't actually a Santa Claus, it's just your mom and dad putting his name on your presents that you open on Christmas morning.""

so.... you're comparing Christians and people who believe in God/a god to kids who have been told a tale all their lives in the name of fun and feeling good? And the "big mean atheists" are hurting your feelings by telling you the secret that there is no god before you can handle it?
yeah.... that will help your case a lot

Quote :

"What are you really gaining out of it? A sense of superiority?"

The hope of rational world where people make decisions based on science and logic, not make-believe and dogma

Quote :

"How does my belief, or anybody else's belief in God, affect you in ANY way?"

how does anyone else's belief in God affect us in any way? are you serious?
.....
really?
Do we really need to get into how other people's religious beliefs shape policy that the rest of us have to follow?
Or, i don't know..... how other people's fanatacism with a vengeful god convinces them to do batshit insane things like strap bombs to their chest and walk into crowded buses, or fly airplanes into buildings?

10/30/2008 4:04:15 PM

Quote :

"If you can tell me, also, why I should treat Jesus being born of a virgin and rising from the grave, or Vishnu killing Vritra with Indra, or the earth being born on the back of a turtle, Zeus and Hera having a child named Hercules, or goldilocks and the 3 bears any differently, I'd love to hear that."

I'm not telling you that there's any difference. I'm saying that you should be respectful of other people's beliefs, just as they should be respectful of yours.

Or, you could just be a huge bitch about the whole thing. Your call, dude.

Quote :

"If you can tell me how "sky fairy" is at all an unfair description for a deity that lives outside of the planet and is mythologically known to live in the sky (and most gods in the last few thousand years fit that bill), then I'd like to know."

fairy (in folklore) one of a class of supernatural beings, generally conceived as having a diminutive human form and possessing magical powers with which they intervene in human affairs.

People dislike atheists not because they don't believe in a god, but because they generally go out of their way to be inflammatory about it.

[Edited on October 30, 2008 at 4:20 PM. Reason : .]

10/30/2008 4:14:22 PM

Quote :

"so.... you're comparing Christians and people who believe in God/a god to kids who have been told a tale all their lives in the name of fun and feeling good? And the "big mean atheists" are hurting your feelings by telling you the secret that there is no god before you can handle it?"

I did not make the comparison first, I was responding to the comparison already made. Did I ever say my feelings were hurt? Again, I don't give a shit what you or any other atheist thinks, I just don't get it.

Quote :

"Do we really need to get into how other people's religious beliefs shape policy that the rest of us have to follow? Or, i don't know..... how other people's fanatacism with a vengeful god convinces them to do batshit insane things like strap bombs to their chest and walk into crowded buses, or fly airplanes into buildings?"

what policies are you referring to in particular?


so because there are some religious radicals in the world, you feel it's okay to disrespect an entire group of people and tell them they're moronic idiots for believing in God? what the hell do I have to do with a suicide bomber?

10/30/2008 4:28:26 PM

I dunno where to start on that commercial. Bad taste perhaps, but it comes up well short of expressing the deluge of utter contempt, dismay, and outrage that I have after seeing that ad. Elections are always dirty, but every now and then I hear or see something like this. Something so deliberately juvenile, malicious, and blantantly false that it baffles me to think that even a politician would stoop so low.

Take your pick of analogies: Hulk Hogan thinks that ad was brutal. The Punisher thinks it was too harsh. Rush Limbaugh thought it was uncalled for. Anne Coulter... well... actually she probably wrote and produced it

The sad thing is that I was planning on voting for Dole for two reasons: (1) The Dems will control the White House and Congress, which i don't like, and (2) Bob Dole is such a stand-up guy, no way his wife is a total bitch. Yes, those were bad reasons. Shame on me. Maybe I'm too young to remember, but I don't recall bob Dole doing anything remotely as bad in any of his campaigns. I'd like to think even he would call her out on it.

*********************************************************************

I'm voting for Kay Hagan. Dole, you should be ashamed of yourself. You lost my vote on that commercial alone. Get the hell out of my State's senate seat.

Signed,

1. Erios

[Edited on October 30, 2008 at 8:54 PM. Reason : Hagan ftw]

10/30/2008 8:51:23 PM

Quote :

"I dislike atheists as a whole, not because of their disbelief in God - I could give two shits what somebody else thinks - but because they come across as assholes. "You're a fucking moron for believing in that sky fairy, when will you wake up you stupid Christian moonbats?" Yeah, you have the right to say whatever the hell you want to say, that still doesn't make it right."

What would you say to someone who gave hundreds of dollars to a psychic?

What would you say to someone who committed incest because they believed their cult leader was a god?

What would you say to someone who burned someone alive because they thought they were a witch?

I guess you would tell them that you respect their beliefs, and then let them carry on with their crazy delusional thinking.

Quote :

"so because there are some religious radicals in the world, you feel it's okay to disrespect an entire group of people and tell them they're moronic idiots for believing in God? what the hell do I have to do with a suicide bomber?"

You both believe in something that isn't true. And this thing that isn't true is responsible for most of the hate and bigotry in the world.

-Israel
-Palestine
-Homosexuality
-Abortion
-Stem cells

What is the driving force behind all of these issues? Religion.

[Edited on October 30, 2008 at 10:23 PM. Reason : ]

10/30/2008 10:21:58 PM

I guess I'm missing your point.

What am I supposed to tell these people in your scenarios? What is the proper atheist way of addressing these issues? How the hell are they relevant to our conversation?

Disagree with an issue all you want and if I'm committing incest or murder, feel free to belittle or mock me all you want.

I believe in something you say isn't true. Please go out of your way to call me an idiot if it makes you feel better. Maybe if I could hear people acting like assholes and making fun of religion a bit more, I would wake up one day and renounce everything I've ever believed in.

That's just my point. Does that ever work? Have you ever been a part of a conversation where you told a Christian they believed in a sky fairy and they were moonbat psychos for living in a fantasy world and they said, "You know what? I guess you're right, I never looked at it that way - I'm no longer a Christian." And my opinion is that most atheists don't even care about that. It's not about winning over somebody to their side or to wake somebody up, it's just an opportunity to look down on somebody else and make fun of them because there's no way they can think how they approach the discussion will actually change someone's opinion.

[Edited on October 30, 2008 at 10:56 PM. Reason : .]

10/30/2008 10:55:57 PM

I was giving you situations in which you would say to the person, "You fucking idiot, why the hell are you doing that you crazy person?"

I've tried approaching the situation rationally, and you know what? It doesn't work. You can't rationally convince someone to not believe in something that is irrational.

If I ask you, "Prove to me God exists?"

You would respond with one of these answers:

"Prove to me he doesn't!" which is a fallacy, since the burden of proof is on you.

"The proof is in the Bible!" which doesn't work, because the Bible is not scientific proof of anything.

"I just feel like he does." which is avoiding the question.

And then when I push further, people become frustrated and walk away. They don't want to confront the idea that everything they've been told since they can remember has been a lie. I know it's tough, but as a preacher says, "The truth shall set you free."

Ever wonder how great life must be when you can actually just enjoy it and not worry about doing something that some imaginary person would send you to eternal damnation for?

10/30/2008 11:12:16 PM

^not to divert this into a theological conversation, although it's already headed that way...but...

Quote :

"Ever wonder how great life must be when you can actually just enjoy it and not worry about doing something that some imaginary person would send you to eternal damnation for?"

you listed a bunch of things that a religious person would condemn, such as rape, incest, murder, etc.

but if there really is no big guy upstairs, what's stopping people from murdering, raping, and doing whatever the hell they want? if there is no god, there's no real incentive to live life with any sense of morality or decency, is there? and there is no repurcussion to fear. the only reason to not do these things, is to avoid backlash from other humans, but hey, why not just kill them as well?

10/30/2008 11:39:01 PM

People can have moral fiber without religion. What you just admitted is that the only reason Christians aren't out raping and killing people is because they're afraid of going to Hell.

Meaning that if God suddenly said it was okay, you'd have Christians raping and murdering people (which they do anyway in the name of God, but that's another topic).

10/30/2008 11:41:14 PM

i understand that. but i don't think religion is the sole reason for conflicts such as:

Quote :

" -Israel -Palestine -Homosexuality -Abortion -Stem cells "

if i just happen to hate jews for no real reason, or homosexuals, or abortion supporters or even babies, if i'm convinced that there is no god, what's to stop me?

i guess i just take issue with your belief that religion is responsible for all hate and bigotry. i think they could exist in a godless society as well.

[Edited on October 30, 2008 at 11:45 PM. Reason : ]

10/30/2008 11:43:59 PM

Quote :

" I'm not telling you that there's any difference. I'm saying that you should be respectful of other people's beliefs, just as they should be respectful of yours."

I've yet to be given a real reason why we should "be respectful of other people's beliefs," either. It's like some sort of circular, silly cop-out.

"You should respect my beliefs!"
"Why?"
"Because you should, because beliefs should be respected!"
"Why?"
"Because you should, because beliefs should be respected!"

Give me reasons. So far, I don't see anyone "respecting" my beliefs. I see them disagreeing with me and telling me why they disagree with them (well, most of the time), and I admire that. I, personally, can handle criticism. I'm sorry if people with religious faith cannot.

I feel like God (God, I love your name. Great choice.) made it very clear here:

Quote :

""Prove to me he doesn't!" which is a fallacy, since the burden of proof is on you. "The proof is in the Bible!" which doesn't work, because the Bible is not scientific proof of anything. "I just feel like he does." which is avoiding the question."

And this... OOOOH, YOU REALLY pulled this one out, didn't you?

Quote :

"but if there really is no big guy upstairs, what's stopping people from murdering, raping, and doing whatever the hell they want? if there is no god, there's no real incentive to live life with any sense of morality or decency, is there?"

Let me ask you this - are YOU only not murdering and raping people because you believe there will be punishment for you in the afterlife? If so, let me tell you 2 things:

1.) You're in the minority, because mankind somehow evolved and became sentient and built civilizations, first without anyone having beliefs (because they weren't sentient), then without religious beliefs, then without all of them having a belief in your "god," so clearly your logic is absolutely horrendous.
2.) Stay the fuck away from me, because you're a crazy person, and you should be locked up to prevent you from harming someone in the event that you decide god DOESN'T exist.

Now, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you have more reasons (like the sense of community that gave human beings the ability to live in tribes, then cities). I'll also give you a chance to redeem yourself before your entire species and admit that was a stupid thing to say.

Quote :

"if i just happen to hate jews for no real reason, or homosexuals, or abortion supporters or even babies, if i'm convinced that there is no god, what's to stop me?"

See above refutation. However, find me someone who hates Jews, homosexuals, or abortion supporters "for no real reason" or for a reason that isn't religious.

I hope to your god that college teaches you how to think. Fuck.

[Edited on October 30, 2008 at 11:55 PM. Reason : .]

10/30/2008 11:49:07 PM

^ughhhh.... i was merely asking a question.

the larger point i'm trying to make is:

if there is no god, then we might have to concede that there is no such thing as morality, or moral fiber. how can we unanimously govern ourselves on a set of morals if those morals have no basis?

but, whatever, like i said originally, i'm not really trying to get into a theological debate here, cuz i'm just flat-out not passionate about the subject (and i think you have me confused for an ultra-right winged christian--which i'm pretty far from).

[Edited on October 30, 2008 at 11:56 PM. Reason : ]

10/30/2008 11:55:39 PM

Quote :

"but if there really is no big guy upstairs, what's stopping people from murdering, raping, and doing whatever the hell they want? if there is no god, there's no real incentive to live life with any sense of morality or decency, is there? and there is no repurcussion to fear. the only reason to not do these things, is to avoid backlash from other humans, but hey, why not just kill them as well?"

that is the weakest, most worn out argument against atheism there is. Like you mentioned, there are repercussions for doing "whatever you want", even if those repercussions are "only" from other humans. Of course you suggest we can just "kill those punishers as well", but that will only lead to more suffering for yourself, and will eventually lead to your death. And for an atheist, unlike a Christian, death is not just the start of an eternity sitting in the clouds. i.e. an atheist has no reason to look forward to death, and therefore has all the reason in the world to behave like a rational, compassionate human in order to prolong his life on Earth as long as possible, because there is nothing after this. Killing and raping people is certainly one way to end your life on Earth as quickly as possible.

But beyond that, most humans have a sense of moral decency already. It's how we function as a society. Modern civilization would cease to be if humans did not feel an imperative to be decent to each other, not because it makes the Big Man Upstairs happy, but because it makes us (people) happy.

An atheist need only to live by the Golden Rule - do unto others as you would expect they should do unto you - and he can surely live as fruitful a life as the most ardent Christian. And while the Bible also teaches the Golden Rule, it is important to remember that the Bible was not the first, or the latest, philosophy to suggest this is a good way to lead one's life.

10/30/2008 11:57:24 PM

^^

Whatever you were doing, you were NOT Just "asking a question." You were asking one of the stupidest questions ever, in my opinion, at least related to religion.

Can I presume, then, that you're not going to admit that it was a stupid question and redeem yourself and your species for presenting such a ridiculously low opinion of us?

^ *Daps* - Where do these people come from? I feel like they're another species, honestly.

[Edited on October 30, 2008 at 11:58 PM. Reason : .]

10/30/2008 11:58:06 PM