http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/01/scenes_from_the_gaza_strip.html

Here's an interesting set of photos...

Palestinian bomb:


Israeli bomb:


It shouldn't be hard to see why some would claim Israel's response is a little beyond "self defense" should it?

1/7/2009 3:22:58 PM

Quote :

"It shouldn't be hard to see why some would claim Israel's response is a little beyond "self defense" should it?"

are you f'ing serious? you have to be trolling.

1/7/2009 3:54:53 PM

^ Have you been living in a cave?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24879206-2702,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7815096.stm

1/7/2009 4:01:50 PM

you are a moron

go back and read the articles I posted for Joe on the last page. most people with a brain recognize that Hamas is nothing but a low-rent, self-serving, COWARDLY terrorist organization.

1/7/2009 4:13:13 PM

^that the Bush admin helped to legitimize...

1/7/2009 4:16:00 PM

Quote :

"most people with a brain recognize that Hamas is nothing but a low-rent, self-serving, COWARDLY terrorist organization. "

... that gains more support from the Palestinians everytime Israel attempts a shock-and-awe campaign.

IOW, Israel, who SHOULD be held to a higher standard, is helping in perpetuating this decades old conflict, not thwarting it, with their actions.

1/7/2009 4:16:21 PM

Palestinians are bullied and threatened into supporting Hamas...much like the Iraqis in Anbar until they got tired of it. The Palestinians know nothing but the propaganda spewed to them by Hamas and they are cut off from the world. The Iraqis had outside help and resources and put down that shit. i bet if the Palestinians had the same, they would expel Hamas as well.

Help me understand this...

Hamas uses Palestinian women and children as pawns against the Israelis. Shields. The more dead innocents after an Israeli response the better, so they take up defensive positions among them. Your liberal sensitivities should bleed for the innocent who are placed in harms way by the terrorists. Instead, you focus your anger on a government trying to protect itself and its people. Hamas is the true source of the death here. Not the Israelis. I dont get it.

1/7/2009 4:22:45 PM

Quote :

"that the Bush admin helped to legitimize..."

who gives a fuck about Bush? should we also talk about Clinton? who the fuck cares?

1/7/2009 4:23:36 PM

Quote :

"Hamas uses Palestinian women and children as pawns against the Israelis. Shields. The more dead innocents after an Israeli response the better, so they take up defensive positions among them. Your liberal sensitivities should bleed for the innocent who are placed in harms way by the terrorists. Instead, you focus your anger on a government trying to protect itself and its people. Hamas is the true source of the death here. Not the Israelis. I dont get it."

So the solution is to take actions that help to bolster Hamas?

I don't get that.

1/7/2009 4:27:39 PM

so you would rather innocent Jews die? what do you expect any government to do in the situation of the Israelis?

the question is this. would there be any death, bombs, etc...if Hamas was not launching indiscriminate attacks against innocent civilians? the answer is no. they are the source.

1/7/2009 4:29:58 PM

lol, the fact that the admin pushed for elections to give the facad of "democracy winning over terror", which backfired, is pretty significant in the current course of events...don't you think?

Clinton's efforts didn't work either, they weren't as detrimental, but they still didn't work. (what's the theme here?)

I am actually quite pleased with the relative neutrality (relative, mind you...and only in public, but its a start) of the admin. in the current situation.

^to be devils advocate, palestinians would say there would be no rockets if there wasn't a blockade...

[Edited on January 7, 2009 at 4:38 PM. Reason : .]

1/7/2009 4:35:51 PM

Quote :

" the question is this. would there be any death, bombs, etc...if Hamas was not launching indiscriminate attacks against innocent civilians? the answer is no. they are the source."

That's like saying we wouldn't have all those people die in the American revolution, if we just didn't revolt.

It's not realistic to think the Palestinians would come remotely close to surrendering, do you think they would or could?

Once you understand this, you will see your question is not a logical one to ask.

The question you SHOULD be asking is "what will end this conflict?"

The answers are:
1) Decimating the Palestinians
2) Decimating the Israelis
3) Compromise

Neither Hamas's bombings, nor Israel's response are going to achieve any of those solutions.

1/7/2009 4:37:56 PM

No one is arguing that the question "What will end the conflict?" is an important one. The question that is being argued, the one you are not answering is, "When Israel is respecting the cease-fire and the other side breaks it, what is Israel supposed to do?"

1/7/2009 4:44:46 PM

Quote :

"I dont get my news from the Israeli government. I get it from FAUXNEWS and the BBC and NPR "

For the most part, those news organizations receive their information from the Israel government.

Quote :

"We did not routinely use women and children as human shields, or as any other means of discouraging, absorbing, or misguiding enemy fire."

I have not seen any sources stating that Palestinian civilians are being forced to act as human shields. If civilians are voluntarily willing to put their lives in danger, it may reflect the desparation of the Palestinian people.

1/7/2009 5:43:01 PM

Quote :

"No one is arguing that the question "What will end the conflict?" is an important one. The question that is being argued, the one you are not answering is, "When Israel is respecting the cease-fire and the other side breaks it, what is Israel supposed to do?""

It's hard for me to say without a detailed intelligence analysis of Palestines strategic positions, but I would have a hard time believing a more tempered response wasn't possible.

Israeil killed more Palestinians (10-20% of which were non-Hamas) in their recent 4 days of bombing than Palestine killed of Israelis between 2000 and 2004 (i don't have any statistics for 04 to 08).

[Edited on January 7, 2009 at 6:02 PM. Reason : ]

1/7/2009 5:59:48 PM

^^BBC and NPR have been pretty agressive on mentioning Palestinian death numbers without giving an Israeli perspective. Fox is the opposite end. CNN and MSNBC have had the more neutral reports.

[Edited on January 7, 2009 at 6:03 PM. Reason : ^]

1/7/2009 6:03:05 PM

Quote :

"Israel, who SHOULD be held to a higher standard, is helping in perpetuating this decades old conflict, not thwarting it, with their actions."

So what are they supposed to do? Let Hamas bombard them? If there was no retaliation, then what would keep Syria and Iran from joining in?

1/7/2009 6:08:00 PM

^ the world isn't black and white.

Their options aren't "do nothing" or "scorched earth."

1/7/2009 6:11:03 PM

If Hamas wasn't using civilians as human shields, then it wouldn't seem like such a bad response.

1/7/2009 6:42:42 PM

Quote :

"For the most part, those news organizations receive their information from the Israel government."

+ all them jews in hollywood

1/7/2009 6:54:27 PM

Quote :

"It's hard for me to say without a detailed intelligence analysis of Palestines strategic positions, but I would have a hard time believing a more tempered response wasn't possible."

ladies and gentlemen, that guy

Quote :

"I have not seen any sources stating that Palestinian civilians are being forced to act as human shields. If civilians are voluntarily willing to put their lives in danger, it may reflect the desparation of the Palestinian people."

I didnt say they were being forced. Read the news reports. Its a part of their lives. Hamas routinely fires on Israeli positions from soft targets. They store their weapons and hold their meetings amongst the population. The civilians are terrified of both the Israeli armor and the Hamas fanatics.


[Edited on January 7, 2009 at 7:02 PM. Reason : .]

1/7/2009 7:01:01 PM

1/7/2009 9:19:34 PM

Rockets Fired From Lebanon Into Israel's North

Quote :

"JERUSALEM — Israel's conflict with Hamas in Gaza threatened to broaden on Thursday as at least three rockets were fired into the north of Israel from Lebanon. The rockets, presumably launched in support of Hamas, could presage the opening of a second front. The Israeli Army, in a brief statement, said it 'responded with fire against the source of the rockets,' which landed near the town of Nahariya. Two Israelis were slightly wounded, the police said."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/middleeast/09mideast.html

1/8/2009 4:21:21 AM

Israels wrong blah blah blah, poor Palestinians blah blah blah, liberal talking points blah blah blah. Just remember who broke the cease fire. Israel pulled out of Gaza, they are not occupiers

1/8/2009 7:55:43 AM

hear that folks?

Israel is not an occupier.

glad thats settled. we can go about our business now. nothing to see here, but a few brownies getting whats coming to them.

1/8/2009 10:43:58 AM

This thread is full of ignorance

1/8/2009 10:56:27 AM

enlighten us then.

1/8/2009 10:59:18 AM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28404637

So Israel can now kill U.N. Workers?

1/8/2009 11:02:52 AM

^^^^^
Yes, Israel is clearly on the losing end of this war:




^^^^^^ Are you just trying to point out how Israel's response does nothing but maintain the status quo?

1/8/2009 11:19:02 AM

^ First picture: Jews lived all over that green are prior to 1948, and even prior to WWII, so that map is inaccurate.

Second picture: the UN Partition had nothing to do with war. Britain controlled the territory, saw the need for two distinct entities, divided up the land as fairly as they could, giving historically Jewish areas to Israel and historically Arab areas to the "Palestinians" (which by the way were not their own group until Israel was a country, before that they were just Arabs who happened to live in this British territory called Palestine).

Third picture: By 1967, 3 seperate wars had already taken place, Israel winning each time. And guess what happens when war ends? Oh yeah, the winner gets land. The only two wars in relatively recent history that did not result in land changing ownerships were the War of 1812 and Vietnam. No one was yelling at the US for taking Texas from Mexico or at France for taking Morocco from the Ottomans. That's how war works. "Palestine" attacked, Israel won, Israel gets land (also from Syria and Egypt). Yet Israel has given back land (the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt) for the sake of peace, and Egypt and Israel have had a good relation ever since. When Israel pulled all of its citizens and military out of Gaza in 2006, it only got worse.

Fourth picture: bullshit. I was in Israel in 2007 and no one goes into the West Bank. That area is entirely under the Palestinian Authority and although there maybe a few Israeli settlements here and there, it is not considered Israeli land.

1/8/2009 1:07:39 PM

Quote :

"http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28404637 So Israel can now kill U.N. Workers?"

for some reason the article you posted wont load in my browser for me to read, however, does it read that Israel is targeting UN workers? are they sniping them from the rooftops? or have there been some UN workers accidentally killed while working in a war zone? huge difference bro...and its not nice to mislead people like that.

1/8/2009 1:16:55 PM

Quote :

"the United Nations halted all aid deliveries to the besieged Gaza Strip, citing a series of Israeli attacks on U.N. staff and installations."

the UN feels it happens frequently enough to halt deliveries....In other news, the US is now also supporting an immediate cease fire.

1/8/2009 2:05:21 PM

Mislead? Hmm ok.

Not my fault you cant load the article, I am sure you could find the same information on many different websites. Basically UN scheduled a delivery with Israel and then they opened fire on the truck and killed the driver.

Let me guess, you are going to come back with a collateral damage argument?

Also just to clarify, I am not a supporter of Hamas. The blame should be on both parties( Israel & Hamas). Unless you have been to the region and experienced life there you have no idea what goes on. There is corruption on both sides. If the corrupt individuals were removed I know for a fact Israelis and Palestinians could live in peace.

Also this is an occupied country. Dont act like you dont know this. Just because the pali people "have" Gaza and the West Bank does not mean they are not still being oppressed and terrorized. Israel goes out of its way to make life hell by blocking food and supplies from reaching these areas. And unless you have experienced life there then you cannot argue this, so dont even try.


But anyways America will continue to bow down to Israel until they no longer need this country, and innocent people will continue to die on both sides. Sad but true.

1/8/2009 2:23:11 PM

ok, I finally got the article to load. it mentions two occasions of aid workers getting into the line of fire. that hardly qualifies as 'targeting' and it is certainly misleading to suggest it so. what it probably is, is simply a jumpy Israeli on the trigger who shouldve been more careful knowing the aid was coming in. shit like that happens in war zone, especially in urban fighting. friendly fire has happened since the beginning of warfare. the UN and Red Cross are probably doing the right thing by pulling their workers back. it is obviously very dangerous.

listen, I dont necessarily disagree with your premise. there are always corrupt individuals that play both sides. innocent arabs and jews are dying needlessly because of religious zealotry. its fucking frustrating.

however, that doesnt excuse the fact that Hamas broke the ceasefire, for whatever reason, and Israel has the right to protect itself. I am not going to argue whether its an "occupied" country or not. too many semantics to argue on a message board. what is clear is that Israel is recognized as a sovereign nation and has the right to defend itself. Hamas attacked it. period. I am sick and tired of people defending Hamas as some righteous entity when all they are, are terrorist thugs who intimidate and brainwash fellow muslims to support them and who constantly pick losing fights with the jews for the sole purpose of maintaining their status in the radical muslim community. fights that needlessly cost innocent lives. Hamas are the ones at fault and Hamas deserve your ire. they are the source of this today.

when Israel goes marching into Palestinian areas for the fuck of it, just to blow shit up, I will be the first one to slam them for it. they have done it in the past. this time, I will not fault them for protecting their people.

1/8/2009 2:52:50 PM

I was not defending Hamas in anyway shape or form. I am basically trying to as level headed as possible. I also will not get into an argument over the occupation because neither you or I can do a damn thing about it.

You say Israel has a right to defend itself, thats perfectly fine. At the same time when Palestinian people choose to defend themselves people cannot automatically call them terrorists. It goes both ways, Israel is not always the victims, nothing could be farther from the truth.

1/8/2009 3:19:08 PM

the Palestinian people are not at fault. Hamas is at fault. if the Palestinian people would expel Hamas from its ranks, they would be a lot better off.

Hamas lives on the aid of Western powers, yet does nothing for its people except encourage the wrath of their Israeli neighbors. Hamas produces nothing positive.

1/8/2009 3:27:43 PM

Totally Agree

1/8/2009 3:33:05 PM

Clearly, Hamas was using the U.N. aid workers as human shields. Why else would Israel have attacked them?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/08/israel.gaza/index.html

Quote :

"As a result of Thursday's fatal attack on its aid convoy, the U.N. relief agency will suspend activities in Gaza until the Israeli military can guarantee the safety of its staff, said the agency's chief spokesman, Chris Gunness, in Jerusalem."

1/8/2009 4:36:28 PM

Quote :

"Fourth picture: bullshit. I was in Israel in 2007 and no one goes into the West Bank. That area is entirely under the Palestinian Authority and although there maybe a few Israeli settlements here and there, it is not considered Israeli land."

bdmazur

1. moron doesn't know what the fuck he's posting about.

2. He doesn't have to--he's a propagandist. I mean, he recently posted an image from Uruknet.com and made an attempt to mask it.

1/8/2009 4:52:11 PM

Wow. Who knew Republicans liked the Jews?

1/8/2009 5:26:03 PM

Quote :

"When properly directed, Grumpy, your penchant for pleonasm (or accumulatio) as a rhetorical device can me most efficacious and never ceases to entertain."

Sigh...the second time in as many weeks that someone has suggested that my posts are length and detailed in order to achieve some goal other than "clarity." I suppose I should've just said, "Nuh-uhn, joe_schmoe, terrorism is different USA USA USA!!!"

Quote :

"Yes, Israel is clearly on the losing end of this war:"

Other than the UN partition, most of that land changes hands because someone else starts a fight with Israel that they can't win. If the Palestinians and others want to keep their land from Israel, maybe they should quit attacking it.

Quote :

"Hamas lives on the aid of Western powers, yet does nothing for its people except encourage the wrath of their Israeli neighbors. Hamas produces nothing positive."

Untrue. Hamas achieved much of its popularity by running social programs long before it even came to power. The destruction of Israel is central to its thinking, but it does other stuff for communities.

Quote :

"I have not seen any sources stating that Palestinian civilians are being forced to act as human shields. If civilians are voluntarily willing to put their lives in danger, it may reflect the desparation of the Palestinian people."

Well, if the civilians are voluntarily participating in that sense, then I don't see why they should still be treated as civilians or noncombatants. Smoke the fuckers. I realize the world would be appalled at it, but then again I tend to think the world is pretty stupid. If they are actively participating in the war like that, then they're just untrained soldiers without guns.

Quote :

"The question you SHOULD be asking is "what will end this conflict?""

In the past, "Not attacking Israel" has worked pretty good at ending the conflict. Israel has a lot of flaws, but it's not hellbent on conflict or expansion. What it wants, obsessively and with understandable reason, is security. Give them that -- stop picking fights with them. Once it's clear that the Palestinians are sincerely intent on abandoning violence as a tactic, I think concessions will come pretty easily.

Put the question to yourself this way:

If Israel stopped military operations in Gaza and other Palestinian territory, would Hamas, etc. quit attacking Israel?

If Hamas, etc. quit attacking/threatening Israel, would Israel stop military operations in Palestinian territory?

One of these seems like a much more likely scenario than the other.

1/8/2009 5:52:18 PM

Quote :

"Wow. Who knew Republicans liked the Jews?"

I couldnt care less about jews, christians or muslims. I care about a sovereign state's right to defend itself and its people, as well as ridding the world of fanatical religious maniacs who have no problem killing innocent people.

Quote :

"Untrue. Hamas achieved much of its popularity by running social programs long before it even came to power. The destruction of Israel is central to its thinking, but it does other stuff for communities."

minimal stuff. when was the last time Hamas produced something peaceful? something that bettered the world? there have even been reports of hamas' thugs selling the aid being donated by western countries to aid the poor Palestinians. they contribute nothing but violence to the world.

1/8/2009 6:11:53 PM

Some of you people are fucking ridiculous. Israel agreed to a cease fire after the last confrontation and what happened? Hamas smuggled in and built up their weapons supply, and fired over a few thousand rockets at Israel.

Interesting article:

Quote :

"The Jews Face a Double Standard Why doesn't Israel have the same right to self-defense as other nations? By MARVIN HIER The world-wide protests against Israel's ground incursion into Gaza are so full of hatred that they leave me with the terrible feeling that these protests have little to do with the so-called disproportionality of the Israeli response to Hamas rockets, or the resulting civilian casualties. My fear is that the rage we see in the protesters marching in the streets is far more profound and dangerous than we would like to believe. There are a great many people in the world who, even after Auschwitz, just can't bear the Jewish state having the same rights they so readily grant to other nations. These voices insist Israel must take risks they would never dare ask of any other nation-state -- risks that threaten its very survival -- because they don't believe Israel should exist in the first place. Just look at the spate of attacks this week on Jews and Jewish institutions around the world: a car ramming into a synagogue in France; a Chabad menorah and Jewish-owned shops sprayed with swastikas in Belgium; a banner at an Australian rally demanding "clean the earth from dirty Zionists!"; demonstrators in the Netherlands chanting "Gas the Jews"; and in Florida, protestors demanding Jews "Go back to the ovens!""

full article is here: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123137495711862883.html and yes I realize the author is a Jewish rabbi.

1/8/2009 7:08:01 PM

Quote :

"Other than the UN partition, most of that land changes hands because someone else starts a fight with Israel that they can't win. If the Palestinians and others want to keep their land from Israel, maybe they should quit attacking it. "

And why can't they win a fight with Israel?

In any case, the point was that republican18 and others act as if Israel is on the verge of collapse from Palestine's devastating attacks, where Palestine is essentially very poorly armed guerilla fighters/terrorist, compared to Israel's well trained army. I hate to use cliches, but discretion is the better part of valor.

Here's a good breakdown of the problems facing Israel:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8348247032597114008&hl=en


^ Why is it when Jews complain about racism, you're all "right on!" but when blacks do it, it's playing the race card? They almost always win in their skirmishes with the arabs, they've killed more arabs than Jews have been killed, and their standard of living is better than their arab neighbors across the board.

[Edited on January 8, 2009 at 7:45 PM. Reason : ]

1/8/2009 7:29:10 PM

Here's an idea: "maybe they shouldn't attack Israel!!!" Who the fuck should feel bad for idiots that keep picking a losing fight?

1/8/2009 7:42:23 PM

^ you're missing the point (watch the video link I posted).

No one is saying or has said Israel shouldn't defend itself. The problem is their defense doesn't better their position (because if it did, this would have been over 40 years go), it makes it worse, it sets up more Jews to be used as fodder, and it keeps us having to hear about this conflict in the news every other week.

1/8/2009 7:46:57 PM

Quote :

"minimal stuff."

Still wrong. Look, I'm not defending the guys. Bomb the shit out of them, by all means. But to figure out how to solve the problem you have to understand how they got where they are. Ignoring the fact that they have provided benefits to many communities is not going to help anything, except your own ability to paint the world in black and white so you don't wear out any brain cells thinking.

At the very least, it's important to realize that to many Palestinians, the Hamas guy blown up by an Israeli rocket was not only a freedom fighter and family member, but also someone who maybe helped run charities, coach kids sports leagues, feed the elderly, etc. You want Palestine to man up and kick these bastards out? Something meaningful has to be done to undermine that image.

As for selling aid...yeah, corruption and poverty go hand in hand. It happens all over the world in places with much more peaceful governments than Palestine's.

Quote :

"republican18 and others act as if Israel is on the verge of collapse from Palestine's devastating attacks"

I'm not seeing much of that in this thread, to be honest. Certainly, Israel's existence isn't really threatened by Hamas, Hezbollah, or much anybody else at the moment, but at any given time a few things could change to shift the balance. And whether or not the country itself is threatened, attacks warrant a response. If the Bahamas got uppity I wouldn't fear for the existence of the US, but if they were lobbing rockets at Miami I wouldn't wave the issue away as being less than vital.

Quote :

"And why can't they win a fight with Israel?"

Does it matter? I could see why the Palestinians and Arab states reacted the way they did in 1949. I can understand why they thought maybe they'd have a better chance the next time around. But as you get into the third, fourth, and however many other conflicts that they start and then lose, their repeated initiation of bloodshed gets less and less acceptable. When history has conclusively demonstrated that you'll accomplish nothing but death followed by defeat, it's time to put away your guns and try another tactic.

I agree with you that Israel should make negotiations and compromises. The problem is that they have, and it's still brought them here.

1/9/2009 2:52:18 AM

Quote :

" Still wrong. Look, I'm not defending the guys. Bomb the shit out of them, by all means. But to figure out how to solve the problem you have to understand how they got where they are. Ignoring the fact that they have provided benefits to many communities is not going to help anything, except your own ability to paint the world in black and white so you don't wear out any brain cells thinking. At the very least, it's important to realize that to many Palestinians, the Hamas guy blown up by an Israeli rocket was not only a freedom fighter and family member, but also someone who maybe helped run charities, coach kids sports leagues, feed the elderly, etc. You want Palestine to man up and kick these bastards out? Something meaningful has to be done to undermine that image."

I would honestly like to know the type of things Hamas does for the community because I dont know. I would also like to see how many of the Hamas regulars are the family men as you describe because I dont buy that. I am sure there are some who have volunteered and there are probably others who have been bullied and peer pressured into service, but its hard for to comprehend that the same philanthropic and giving souls you describe are inviting Israeli air strikes into civilian areas by storing weapons among them and firing rockets from them. I could be wrong, I would just like to see some numbers or reports or something.

1/9/2009 8:24:04 AM

Quote :

"as well as ridding the world of fanatical religious maniacs who have no problem killing innocent people."

wait, which side are you talking about here?

1/9/2009 9:12:23 AM

any side.

however, don't try to start the argument that Israel is defending itself based on religious zealotry. also, you also have to concede that if Israel had no problem with killing innocents, they would just blast the whole place. they use precision weapons. when they start carpet bombing muslims I will concede that was the Israeli m.o.

1/9/2009 9:41:48 AM