I think this may be the first time Grumpy and I are in agreement on a controversial issue.

2/10/2009 9:33:33 AM

If he's really caught 12,000 illegals in the last ten years (doubtful) then he's a fucking hero. I don't give a shit if our "immigration" process is flawed. People from other countries need to respect our GD country.

2/10/2009 9:36:44 AM

I'd say they DO respect it, that is why they try so hard to come here.

Quote :

"I'm saying that he's only one person with one section of land and dedicating more police resources to his land with only remove them from other locations. Seems that he's doing just fine patrolling his own land and calling police when he finds someone."

I'd say he has been in court multiple times now and is facing a HUGE lawsuit for his most recent problems, so to say he is doing just fine is hilarious actually. What would be cheaper for him, paying the cost of a police officer to patrol his property or doing it himself and running into trouble with the law?

[Edited on February 10, 2009 at 9:45 AM. Reason : ..]

2/10/2009 9:38:08 AM

He should've just shot them all and then buried them right there. No one would ever know or care. Rinse, repeat. Eventually it becomes known in Mexico as that place where people disappear.

2/10/2009 9:58:12 AM

Shoot them for what? Trying to enter a country where they can make a better life? Where Americans are willing to pay them to do jobs that Americans aren't willing to do? Yee-haw!

[Edited on February 10, 2009 at 10:27 AM. Reason : do'h]

2/10/2009 10:19:21 AM

^they should be going about getting into this country legally

2/10/2009 10:34:54 AM

Americans should stop giving them jobs.

2/10/2009 10:36:38 AM

Quote :

" Where Americans are willing to pay them to do jobs that Americans aren't willing to do? Yee-haw!"

gee, I wonder how that all started?

2/10/2009 10:38:02 AM

My point is, if he was going to go to that length to stop them, he had to know there would be repercussions legally. Even if he wins, he's out a lot of time and hassle. So, to avoid all that, go ahead and shoot them. No muss, no fuss.

2/10/2009 10:57:02 AM

^^ Can I get some hair-brained librul scheme for $500, Alex?

2/10/2009 11:07:11 AM

Quote :

"Americans should stop giving them jobs. "

exactly; if we really wanted to stop illegal immigration the gov't should make the fine and punishment for being caught it illegals prohibitivly horrible in such that teh opportunity cost of saving labor costs would not be worth the potential loss.

This though would hurt the bottom line for all of Bush's corporate buddies. Thus why republicans talked big on illegal immigration but did not really do anything effective in stopping it except for erecting a big wall that has more symbolic purpose than practical.

Impossible is it to track down every last illegal immigrant and prohibitivly expensive to ship them all back to Mexico. More practical is smacking the financial crap out of companies that provide work for these people

2/10/2009 11:15:59 AM

Quote :

"I'd say he has been in court multiple times now and is facing a HUGE lawsuit for his most recent problems, so to say he is doing just fine is hilarious actually. What would be cheaper for him, paying the cost of a police officer to patrol his property or doing it himself and running into trouble with the law?"

If he wants to waste his money patrolling his property instead of spending it on armed guards and the inevitable court cases that will arise from his armed guards, thats his choice. It's foolish to think even if he hired an off duty cop to patrol for him that he still wouldn't be in court, as the off duty cop would have no more legal right to what he did than he himself does.

Quote :

"Americans should stop giving them jobs."

I imagine we would, but no company can hire americans at the wages that they can pay these illegal immigrants.

Quote :

"More practical is smacking the financial crap out of companies that provide work for these people"

Even more practical would be removing restrictions on employers so that the cost of hiring cheap american labor isn't so vastly over the cost of hiring cheap mexican labor.

2/10/2009 11:48:10 AM

Quote :

"^^ Can I get some hair-brained librul scheme for $500, Alex?"

Oh, I'm sorry but we were looking for "what is apathy". What is apathy...

2/10/2009 11:58:45 AM

Quote :

"Even more practical would be removing restrictions on employers so that the cost of hiring cheap american labor "

I agree we should definitely go back to 16 hour work days, 6 days a week. Also lets remove child labor laws.

Safety is overrated also; so perhaps OSHA should go back to the dumpsters. Who care if lowly factory workers get black lung or there is live 480V wire dangling around the factory.

2/10/2009 12:01:11 PM

Yes, we should be willing to rescind all of our prohibitive labor laws so that the bottom line in America is as unattractive as the bottom line in Mexico. That's a good idea.

2/10/2009 12:01:52 PM

Quote :

"He should've just shot them all and then buried them right there. No one would ever know or care. Rinse, repeat. Eventually it becomes known in Mexico as that place where people disappear."

This is an extremely offensive thing to say. A history of violence between Anglos and Hispanics exists in this country. Why foster the animosity? Fewer than a hundred years ago, Texas officials and vigilantes did the sort of thing you suggest, summarily executing Hispanics and letting their bones bleach in the sun.

2/10/2009 1:04:53 PM

Quote :

"I don't give a shit if our "immigration" process is flawed. People from other countries need to respect our GD country."

lol

Immigration is not about respect or disrespect. If you're too stupid to think about this rationally, you should just stick to the Rush Limbaugh forums.

2/10/2009 2:34:07 PM

This man did NOTHING wrong. INS should pick the illegals up on their way to the courthouse.

Of course Obamas aunt is illegal i believe and she got to attend the inauguration.

2/10/2009 2:36:16 PM

^ Where does Obama fit in to this issue? What is your point there?

Obama also did cocaine, and he curses, probably while smoking a cigarette too.

2/10/2009 2:52:14 PM

^^^you lost me. So just invading a country wontonly isn't showing a lack of respect?

And seriously man, just drop the Limbaugh references. I don't listen to him and don't even know what station he's broadcast on in Raleigh.

2/10/2009 2:56:20 PM

^ I don't think they are wantonly invading anything, not by any definition of "invade" that i've ever seen.

The fact that you choose to use words like "invade" and "disrespect" to me indicate that this is more of an emotional issue for you. For some reason, you are emotionally offended that someone would want to come and live in the United States. It's like the British who were pissed at the disrespectful New Worlders who didn't want to be part of their country, or the people who were pissed at MLK, Jr. for disrespecting the laws of the land.

For example, according to LoneSnark in another thread, the immigration rate has decreased by 50% since the economic recession started. Is this how an invasion works? If they were trying to invade, now, when we're at a weak point, is the best time.

2/10/2009 3:06:10 PM

well its clear that we definitely view it differently. But tell me, if you have no problem with someone from one country to another what is the point in having countries at all? We should all just be one big happy family. What purpose do borders serve?

Please don't think me racist, I have nothing against Mexican people. Their gov't is another story.

2/10/2009 3:15:53 PM

sorry to trip your sensitivity switch, moron. My point was that these clowns should be deported and then showing up for a court date is a no brainer for INS....just like Obamas aunt showing up for his inauguration was just as easy for INS to pick her up if they had any intention of doing so.

2/10/2009 3:18:45 PM

^ her deportation order was stayed 2 months before the inauguration. She has an immigration hearing in April. While she had been here illegally, she couldn't have been picked up by INS at the inauguration. Obviously, this is because her half-nephew Obama is the president, but she wasn't really doing anything wrong enough that our government needed to waste money worry about.

2/10/2009 3:28:48 PM

if an illegal immigrant is so obviously easy to find and out in the open like that it seems like a no brainer to toss them across the fence. the cost to find them is so low it sounds like money well spent!

2/10/2009 3:34:55 PM

It would be extremely easy for cops to bust college kids smoking pot, driving drunk, and high school kids drinking under age too, but I doubt you advocate for them to take the same measures.

2/10/2009 3:37:55 PM

I give you that, but that's not a good analogy. We're talking (I think) about the INS, who's sole responsibility is to handle the deportation of illegal immigrants.

2/10/2009 3:41:03 PM

Thankfully there is a process to contest your immigration status, especially if your status has changed. If someone has a hearing scheduled, they won't be deported until after the hearing.

Luckily INS isn't run by you. I imagine that there would be a lot of Mexican-looking Americans "kicked over the fence" before they could protest.

In fact, INS doesn't even exist anymore. It's the Department of Homeland Security now.

[Edited on February 10, 2009 at 3:43 PM. Reason : INS]

2/10/2009 3:41:24 PM

^^ Do you know what the "N" stands for in INS?

Their sole purpose is FAR from deporting people. That's probably among the least of their concerns I would guess.

2/10/2009 3:47:13 PM

^yeah good call I really wasn't thinking there.

Quote :

"Thankfully there is a process to contest your immigration status, especially if your status has changed. If someone has a hearing scheduled, they won't be deported until after the hearing. "

I'm a little confused. If you're here illegally, then what status can you honestly contest?

[Edited on February 10, 2009 at 3:49 PM. Reason : naturalization]

2/10/2009 3:48:42 PM

You are being unusually polite... i'm a little concerned...

(although i'm probably confusing you with another TKE)

^ Naturalization is a long an arduous process that's different for different people. obama's aunt initially came here legally, and over-stayed her Visa (which is not a crime, IIRC, it's a civil violation, like speeding). She applied for asylum, but was denied. She can contest that denial, and in the meanwhile, she wouldn't get deported.

If she were anyone else, she would likely have her case denied again. But since she is related to Obama, she'll probably get through.

[Edited on February 10, 2009 at 3:53 PM. Reason : ]

2/10/2009 3:50:06 PM

well I'm not theDuke866 (obviously), not HUR, and not TKEShultz.

however, I am trying to be more open minded, civil, and not make personal attacks. Call it a new years resolution of sorts.

2/10/2009 3:52:04 PM

To play devils advocate for a second, it should be noted that seven of the 9/11 terrorists were in our country on overstayed visas. In fact, according to http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5485917, 45% of illegal immigrants use this as their means of entry.

Guess that means we should be wary of foreign looking people even far from the border, eh?


LOL and apparently 2 of them received posthumous visa extension letters from INS after 9/11!!

[Edited on February 10, 2009 at 4:00 PM. Reason : LOL]

2/10/2009 3:58:28 PM

2/10/2009 3:59:37 PM

Quote :

"So just invading a country wontonly isn't showing a lack of respect?"

Holy Fuck TKE-Teg figured out the secret strategy of the Mexican gov't. Knowing that they don't have the money or technology to defeat
the US on its own soil; they started a war of slowly flooding our country with their nationals.

The males disguise themselves as poor mexicans looking for work and the females have the sole purpose of outbreeding the other

racial groups in america to create the new Mexican super army.

After several decades teh Mexican gov't will give the signal at which point all the mexicans will activate into war mode taking
over our gov't institutions so taht we can be assimilated into the newly created

United Empire of Mexico

Quote :

"We're talking (I think) about the INS, who's sole responsibility is to handle the deportation of illegal immigrants."

Kinda like the ALE has teh sole job of harrassing college kids only trying to have a good time.

2/10/2009 4:54:13 PM

^ Mexican women, in my experience, are extremely smoking hot. I welcome our new overlords.

2/10/2009 4:56:05 PM

Quote :

"GrumpyGOP is, without a doubt, one of the least valuable posters, not just on this site, but the world around."

The problem with this statement is that it implies the existence of "valuable posters."

I'm also not sure you know what "xenophobic" means.

Quote :

"Oh, and slurs? That's just free speech."

Normally, yes.

When you're pointing a gun at someone at the same time, no.

Quote :

"People from other countries need to respect our GD country."

You're right. The fact that they'll risk death by starvation, dehydration, drug runners, or macho rednecks to get into this country is proof of their profound disrespect for it.

Quote :

"they should be going about getting into this country legally"

They can't. At least, a huge part of them can't. I'm not saying it's too difficult for many of them to get in legally, I'm saying it's impossible. The choice isn't between coming in legally or illegally, it's a choice between coming illegally or not coming at all. Now, you're probably fine with that, but man up and admit that you just don't want Hispanics to move here, rather than present an imaginary alternative.

Quote :

"if we really wanted to stop illegal immigration the gov't should make the fine and punishment for being caught it illegals prohibitivly horrible in such that teh opportunity cost of saving labor costs would not be worth the potential loss."

This is true. If we wanted to make goods and services more expensive while reducing profit margins and growth in the middle of a financial crisis, we could do that.

Quote :

"This man did NOTHING wrong."

He used a gun to threaten people in the commission of a nonviolent crime.

Quote :

"So just invading a country wontonly isn't showing a lack of respect?"

I love the "invasion" trick. It's one of my favorites. But really, I'm just a sucker for taking a word that has a very serious and important meaning and then stretching it until it loses any real definition.

Germany invaded Poland.
The US invaded Iraq.
Iraq invaded Kuwait.
Mexico is invading the United States.

Which one doesn't belong?

Quote :

"I have nothing against Mexican people. Their gov't is another story."

Oh, well, in that case I think this whole thing has just been a misunderstanding. You see, the President and legislature of Mexico are not the ones trying to move up here. So now you don't have to worry about it any more.

Quote :

"What purpose do borders serve?"

Well, when used competently, they can allow us to keep track of who is coming in and out of the country. Unfortunately, we mostly try to use it to keep people out. That causes them to sneak in. Meaning we have no way of keeping track.

It could also be used to regulate who we let in, keeping out criminals and terrorists. Law-abiding people would then have every reason to use recognized crossings. Then you could safely assume that people sneaking in across your ranch are real-life bad guys, and everyone would have less of a problem with you holding them at gunpoint.

2/10/2009 7:14:03 PM

Quote :

"I'm not saying it's too difficult for many of them to get in legally, I'm saying it's impossible."

I wanted the thread to be more about protecting our property rights...which I whole-heartedly support.

Along with that, I agree that we make it extremely difficult for quality immigrants to come in legally.

2/10/2009 9:33:29 PM

Quote :

"But tell me, if you have no problem with someone [migrating] from one country state to another what is the point in having countries states at all?"

[Edited on February 10, 2009 at 10:01 PM. Reason : ]

2/10/2009 10:00:57 PM

one of the biggest and most fixable problems involving illegal immigration is the difficulty the immigrants have becoming legal. most have no idea how to go about being a 'legal' visitor to our country.

on the other hand, even if it becomes easy to do so, at some point we are going to be too 'full' to accept anymore, we are going to turn people away and then they are going to sneak in anyway.

to the original point of this thread, it is utterly ridiculous that this man is being taken to civil court. maybe he committed a crime. if so, the DA should charge him with it. illegal immigrants should have no standing in our civil court system. most of us posting here would take drastic measures to protect our property and our family under similar, repeated circumstances. how many times would it take for your property getting trashed for you to get pissed off?

2/10/2009 10:11:14 PM

Quote :

"most of us posting here would take drastic measures to protect our property and our family under similar, repeated circumstances. how many times would it take for your property getting trashed for you to get pissed off?"

I doubt this. I know various victims of actual violence who haven't turned into cowboy vigilantes. Barnett hasn't been attacked by any of the thousands of illegal aliens he's supposedly captured. They're apparently extremely peaceful people. By his own account, most of them simply give up when he confronts them. If they were as dangerous as some of y'all think, he'd be a dead man.

No, what we have here is a privileged dude bullying the desperate and marginalized. It's an old story. Note the other ranchers in the area don't all employ the same tactics. It's not something anyone would do in his situation. That conduct takes a particular personality.

2/10/2009 10:29:08 PM

Quote :

"I wanted the thread to be more about protecting our property rights...which I whole-heartedly support."

I'm down with the defense of property rights. But as a society we generally accept that there are limits to how you can respond to nonviolent crimes. This guy basically held people at gunpoint for trespassing.

Let's think about that. Not only is it an extreme response, it's completely counter-productive. He is keeping people on their property against their will because he wants them to leave. And that leads me to believe that this is less about property rights than it is making a stand about illegal immigration.

Would he be doing the same thing if he lived somewhere else, and the problem was teenagers sneaking drinks and leaving trash on his property? Would he be detaining them or firing shots into the air to scare them off, threatening to call the cops?

2/10/2009 10:31:19 PM

Quote :

""At one point, it said, Mr. Barnett's dog barked at several of the women and he yelled at them in Spanish, "My dog is hungry and he's hungry for buttocks."""

I lolled heartily

2/10/2009 11:29:25 PM

^^ I imagine if he lived somewhere else, teens sneaking on to his property wouldn't also be killing his livestock, shitting all over the place and damaging his equipment. And if they were, and it had been going on for 10 years, I would certainly expect him to confront a group of 16 teens he catches on his property with a gun.

2/11/2009 12:50:28 AM

Quote :

"illegal immigrants should have no standing in our civil court system."

So you think that people in our country should not be bound and protected by the laws that govern our land? People should be allowed to kick them and threaten them with death just because they didn't pop out of their mom's vagina on this side of some imaginary line?

So, is it because they are immigrants or because they're illegal? Would it be cool if I kicked you and held you at gunpoint the next time you do something illegal?

Quote :

"And if they were, and it had been going on for 10 years, I would certainly expect him to confront a group of 16 teens he catches on his property with a gun."

But the issue is not that he confronted them, it's that he held them at gunpoint, harassed them, threatened to kill them, and denied them due process. The fact that they're not American doesn't mean dick. We're not at war with Mexico. Foreign people in our country legally or not should (and do) have the protection of our laws and will be prosecuted for breaking them. Just because they're breaking a law, doesn't give anyone the right to do this cowboy bullshit. I think they have a really solid case, given this guy's history. And they will be deported, if they haven't been already. Non-Americans can definitely bring civil suits against Americans.

2/11/2009 10:01:37 AM

Quote :

"And if they were, and it had been going on for 10 years, I would certainly expect him to confront a group of 16 teens he catches on his property with a gun."

Do you not see how scary this sounds? "Guilt by association" isn't really a tenet of American justice. I spent about ten years in kindergarten through eighth grade getting my ass kicked on a regular basis by black kids. I still don't go for my gun every time I see a black person, even if it's in a similar context.

The fact is, from the article it appears that this guy had zero evidence that these guys were doing anything other than trespassing. Now, trespassing is illegal, and should be. But there's a limit as to what sort of reaction it warrants. Firing shots into the air and threatening to call the police? Acceptable, I think. Hell, I've done that. Since the whole point of stopping trespassing is to get the violators off your property, forcibly keeping them on it at gunpoint is pretty far over that limit.

Now, if he caught them killing livestock, etc., then I could see it. In that case the problem isn't solved simply by chasing them away.

Of course, having said all that, I read disco_stu's post and admit that there's more than one application of "confront" here. As I said, I don't have a problem with him confronting them and letting it be known that you're armed. This guy went well beyond that.

2/11/2009 10:13:39 AM

Honestly not trying to play gotcha here, but I do find it somewhat interesting that you seem to be OK with him actually firing off shots (albeit in the air), but verbally threatening them is a no go. I mean realistically, everyone here seems to have no issue with him confronting people illegally on his property. At 16 to 1, I think he has good reason to do so armed, so the real issue is what happens from here on out.

Unlike you or I, living here in the east coast, this guy actually lives fairly close if not practically on the boarder. So where our trespassers are most likely to be teens being idiots, 10 years of history seem to indicate that his trespassers are illegal immigrants. So once he confronts them, if he chases them off, it still doesn't solve the additional crime (and also, I don't know about you, but chasing 16 people across acres of land is not my idea of a good dat). Seems like honestly the best course of action is to call the police and detain them if possible, so to be honest aside from the kicking part which goes over the line, it seems like he made a good call overall. Threats and racial slurs are a tactic being used to keep them from running until the police arrive. Seems like overall a much safer approach than actually firing off shots into the air.

2/11/2009 10:53:55 AM

Quote :

"(and also, I don't know about you, but chasing 16 people across acres of land is not my idea of a good dat)"

That actually sounds kind of intriguing to me, in a "the most dangerous game" kind of way.

2/11/2009 11:04:19 AM

Quote :

"I do find it somewhat interesting that you seem to be OK with him actually firing off shots (albeit in the air)"

A shot fired into the air accompanied by some shouting makes it very clear to everyone in the area that you're aware of their presence and are able to defend yourself. It also allows you to maintain your distance and safety (because even if he had a gun, the odds aren't good he had 16 bullets in it), and it gives trespassers some motivation to move on.

What it doesn't do is directly threaten anybody, detain them, or abuse them.

Quote :

"So where our trespassers are most likely to be teens being idiots, 10 years of history seem to indicate that his trespassers are illegal immigrants. So once he confronts them, if he chases them off, it still doesn't solve the additional crime"

So what? You chase a bunch of teenagers with beer off your land, you're not solving the additional crime of underage drinking. The drinking age in this country, incidentally, being on par with immigration law in terms of stupidly wasting resources punishing otherwise law-abiding people in an effort to stop something that cannot be stopped.

Quote :

"I don't know about you, but chasing 16 people across acres of land is not my idea of a good dat"

And laughing at a bunch of terrified Mexicans while threatening to set your dogs on them, that's your idea of a good date? The article doesn't say how long it takes law enforcement to get to the various places on this guy's ranch. Hell, it might be faster to just chase them off.

Quote :

"Threats and racial slurs are a tactic being used to keep them from running until the police arrive."

Are you fucking serious? If a police officer, trained and experienced, were to say some of these things in this situation, he might be in jail, not just civil court. But if Cletus the Cowboy wants to ride around his ranch looking for Mexicans to say these things to, well, that's "a good call."

Quote :

"Seems like overall a much safer approach than actually firing off shots into the air."

You fire birdshot straight up into the air, you're not going to hurt anybody. You're just going to make a loud noise. I fail to see how that is more dangerous than pointing a gun at another human being, or putting yourself in a situation where it's you versus 16 desperate people who may be armed or panicked.

2/11/2009 11:11:46 AM

Apparently there are people thousands of miles from the border that feel that shooting these people and burying them somewhere would be a good idea. And given that this guy lives on the border, and based on past history is freaking nuts; One wonders how many Mexicans he has killed and buried on his land somewhere.

2/11/2009 11:26:17 AM