Earth to EarthDogg:

You really are filling in quite well for hooksaw in the "kooky crazy old guy" role quite well.

Quote :

""Outsized rewards"? Is it the president's job to decide when someone's income is too big? Rememeber, he wants his income standards to apply to all businesses...not just bailout babies."

If you have to resort to taking a comment out of context to try and make a point, then you've failed.

The quote was:

Quote :

"outsized rewards and reckless speculation that puts us all at risk have to be over."

They two go hand in hand. Lot's of balance sheet trickery has been played to inflate the bonuses of wall street execs on down to the trading desks who push current quarter losses into next quarters to make their bonuses larger. You know what happened to the last crop of guys that did this sort of thing? We put them in jail and established new regulations. This round it seems we're only going to attempt new regulations. They better hope special prosecutors aren't appointed else their 90% taxed bonus on top of their 1 million a year salaries are going to start looking really fantastic.

Quote :

"He tacitly acknowledges their evilness, but we just can't beat them up too bad..because they are the ones rotton enough to rip off people by making money."

...but they are evil. Mortgage brokerage that gave loans to cows KNEW that one day the jig would be up but they were getting so filthy rich doing it that they didn't care. Wall Street played the same game. If you can make 1 million this year and make $0 thousand the next 2 years followed by $50,000 the next 2 versus 100,000 over the next 5 years, which option will you take? Do you really care if your illegal lending practices are a small but significant cog in the wheel of a faltering national/world economy? Hell no, I'M RIIIICCHH BIAATTTCHHH.

Quote :

"To him, we have to put up with their nasty profit-making, not because rational self-interest is the moral way to live, but just long enough until the economy is moving again."

This is stupidly absurd and how you can draw this conclusion from what you quoted reveals tons about your politics. Though, most of us here are well aware of it by now.

3/25/2009 11:20:47 AM

Quote :

"but they are evil. Mortgage brokerage that gave loans to cows KNEW that one day the jig would be up but they were getting so filthy rich doing it that they didn't care."

And the solution is to let them and their creditors go bankrupt; they will never do it again.

3/25/2009 12:05:54 PM

Deserves to be posted again:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/25/opinion/25desantis.html

Incredibly well written article and really calls into question this entire situation. It seems like no matter what your position or job was at these companies, they're going to forever be screwed for the things that others did. I mean, I understand that there needs to be a middle ground, but at some point these companies are going to need to move forward to hopefully bring them back into the black.

3/25/2009 12:11:55 PM

It's not an article, it's a resignation letter.

3/25/2009 2:28:47 PM

it couldn't be an article anyways if it was on the op-ed page

3/25/2009 3:29:37 PM

Quote :

"-- Dear Sir: Ya'll should have the balls and come clean and give back the bonuses. I know you would never do this so the gov't ought to take you out back and shoot everyone of you crooked sonofb****es...I would be very careful when I went out side. This is just a warning. If I were ya'll I would be real afraid. Thanks, Bill."

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/AIG-Threats-We-will-get-your-children.html

3/25/2009 8:32:06 PM

LET THEM EAT CAKE

3/25/2009 8:42:22 PM

Quote :

"Lot's of balance sheet trickery has been played to inflate the bonuses of wall street execs "

This was all started by Barney Frank and Chris Dodd...trying to put people in homes who had no business owning a home. They screwed around with the regulations that encouraged Banks to act as they did. The banks had nothing to lose and everything to gain BECAUSE the congress changed the lending rules.

And those banks that didn't fall in line and give out subprime loans were harangued as being Greedy and Uncaring. They were threatened with ACORN protests and gov't abuse.

Why isn't Barney Frank on trial for his trickery? Why isn't Andrew Cuomo and the liberal press calling out Franklin Raines to return his ill-gotten bonus? Where are the Special Prosecutors to go after Jaimie Gorelick and Timothy tax-cheat Geithner?

Quote :

"but they are evil."

Who's on talking points now? Not all the AIG employees were misbehaving. Most of them were honest, hard-working people. They agreed up front to wait a year before being paid..to let the company improve itself. And then at the end of the year, Obama, Franks and their pack of news jackels gin up the country's anger against them. "See.. it's them! They're the bad guys! Don't look at us, we didn't have anything to do with it."

The democrat congress voted for the very bill that allowed AIG to pay those bonuses. Most of them didn't even read the stimulus bill before voting for it...it's their mistake. Where is the anger for congress? There is plenty of "evil" to go around.

[Edited on March 25, 2009 at 9:07 PM. Reason : .]

3/25/2009 9:06:13 PM

Quote :

" This was all started by Barney Frank and Chris Dodd...trying to put people in homes who had no business owning a home. "

So Frank and Dodd were sitting in all the small time private mortgage brokers and the QuickLoans of the country telling them to not do the traditional checking of a borrowers capability to repay? Look, unintended consequences happen, but it's a stretch for even the most ardent of conservative nutjobs like yourself to think what Wall Street did with securitization and subprime was what Frank and Dodd had intended or thought might happen. Besides, this has been hashed over in multiple different ways here and across the blogosphere and even the MSM (sans FNC) and it more or less frees Frank and Dodd from the blame you repeatedly place at their feet for this mess. You're just never going to learn and apparently love being ignorant about all this. I suppose it is a path of least resistance to just whine about Frank and Dodd instead of trying to educate yourself about things.

Quote :

"The banks had nothing to lose and everything to gain BECAUSE the congress changed the lending rules"

No, they had everything to lose...until the banana republic kicked in mid last year and has been doing everything in its power to protect its ass. And besides, is it congress now that you are crying about with the rule changes or Frank and Dodd, which is it? If ratings agency payolla (or, put another way evil capitalism) weren't allowed to happen, then none of this would have occured.

Quote :

"And those banks that didn't fall in line and give out subprime loans were harangued as being Greedy and Uncaring. They were threatened with ACORN protests and gov't abuse."

Links plz.

Quote :

"Why isn't Andrew Cuomo and the liberal press calling out Franklin Raines to return his ill-gotten bonus? "

BECAUSE HE ALREADY DID YOU STUPID ASS, JUST LIKE I TOLD YOU THE LAST TIME YOU BROUGHT THIS POINT UP, WITH A DAMN LINK AND EVERYTHING. HERE IT IS AGAIN, TRY AND READ IT THIS TIME
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2004358433_webraines18.html

Quote :

"Not all the AIG employees were misbehaving. Most of them were honest, hard-working people. They agreed up front to wait a year before being paid..to let the company improve itself."

FFS man, I don't think anyone literally thinks all AIG employees are corrupt...well, maybe the backwoods boys that lost their 401ks because of this mess. Those employees that got retention bonuses were only in a position because lobbyist forked over enough cash so that Congress and other regulators would turn a blind eye to the gamblings they were doing with the CDSs. WHERE WERE THOSE GUYS SOUNDING THE ALARM WHEN THEIR COLLEAGUES IN THE OTHER DEPARTMENT WERE WRITING CHECKS THAT THEY KNEW COULDN'T BE CASHED? Did they speak up then? Of course not. Just like the more sophisticated Madoff investors that knew he couldn't be legit but didn't say anything, are you really going to tell the golden goose to stop producing in its prime?

Quote :

"And then at the end of the year, Obama, Franks and their pack of news jackels gin up the country's anger against them. "See.. it's them! They're the bad guys! Don't look at us, we didn't have anything to do with it." The democrat congress voted for the very bill that allowed AIG to pay those bonuses. Most of them didn't even read the stimulus bill before voting for it...it's their mistake. Where is the anger for congress? There is plenty of "evil" to go around."

Sure, Congress fucked up because they do what they always do, skate through everything they do while pages read the bills and tell them what their position is on everything, making occasional appearances to keep the status quo and blah blah blah. I tell you what though, I sure am pissed that they tried to correct a mistake they made rather than let it pass by. Having said that, I do agree on the rest of those points that the bonus issue drop in the ocean compared to the looting that happened with the actual TARP money and what is about to happen with the PPIP.

3/25/2009 11:09:34 PM

Quote :

"it couldn't be an article anyways if it was on the op-ed page"

my bad - mistyped that

Quote :

"WHERE WERE THOSE GUYS SOUNDING THE ALARM WHEN THEIR COLLEAGUES IN THE OTHER DEPARTMENT WERE WRITING CHECKS THAT THEY KNEW COULDN'T BE CASHED? Did they speak up then? Of course not. Just like the more sophisticated Madoff investors that knew he couldn't be legit but didn't say anything, are you really going to tell the golden goose to stop producing in its prime?"

Not to be the devil's advocate here, but there's a possibility that the other guys didn't realize the extent to which this was going on. Didn't Madoff's sons not realize what was going on til right before they turned him in? Hence the whole turning him in thing.

3/25/2009 11:13:59 PM

Quote :

"Didn't Madoff's sons not realize what was going on til right before they turned him in? Hence the whole turning him in thing."

uhh.... anyone who thinks Madoff's sons, and probably most of his inner circle at his firm, weren't in on his scheme is blind. It's pretty clear they had a deal to "turn daddy in" so he could take the heat because he's an old man anyway

3/25/2009 11:24:06 PM

Quote :

"Raines is relinquishing company stock options, proceeds from stock sales and other benefits. His part of the settlement is worth $24.7 million, Raines' total compensation from 1998 through 2004 was $91.1 million, including some $52.6 million in bonuses, according to OFHEO."

So nice of him to give back only $24 million. That left him $28 million in bonuses. Was Obama and Franks demanding AIG employees return just some of their bonuses?

Quote :

"but there's a possibility that the other guys didn't realize the extent to which this was going on. "

No that can't be a possibility. Because, according to some, all the executives at AIG are apparently criminals.

Quote :

"So Frank and Dodd were telling them to not do the traditional checking of a borrowers capability to repay? unintended consequences happen, but it's a stretch to think what Wall Street did was what Frank and Dodd had intended."

I guess you're trying to say that the road to socialism is paved with good intentions?

3/25/2009 11:36:17 PM

You've become as old, bitter, and crotchety as hooksaw.

3/26/2009 6:38:59 AM

Quote :

"Was Obama and Franks demanding AIG employees return just some of their bonuses?"

Yes, as a matter of fact they are doing just that. Bonuses they made from 199x-2007 have been theirs to keep. That is correct, those fantastic bonuses and salaries that made them fantastically rich during the midst of all their CDS gambling is theirs to keep. Only the bonuses that they were set to receive after the American Taxpayer ponied up unthinkable sums are being clawed back.

Quote :

"Because, according to some, all the executives at AIG are apparently criminals. "

Imagine the irony of you posting about people that aren't entirely informed about what they speak.

Quote :

"I guess you're trying to say that the road to socialism is paved with good intentions?"

Yes! That is exactly what I am saying. Whatever it takes to get us there, as long as we get there.

3/26/2009 8:45:40 AM

the law in Conn. states that the company HAS to pay them the bonuses if they have agreed to do so contractually. if the company does not, the employee can sue the company for double the bonus amount plus lawyer fees. that is the law of the state. regardless of the other BS, AIG really had no choice but to pay the bonuses, or risk being responsible for $350 million instead of $165 million.

this is lost on the chest-puffing "outraged" members of Congress and consequently, the public. right or wrong, that is the law in place.

3/26/2009 12:34:07 PM

This guy is a little upset

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/feature-articles/death-wall-street.php

3/26/2009 1:53:11 PM

This is without a doubt the silver bullet that most of Main Street assumed was lurking out there in regard to AIG

http://us1.institutionalriskanalytics.com/pub/IRAstory.asp?tag=351

Criminal fraud, plain and simple.

Question is, will anything be done about this or will the Obama admin paper over it? I've already basically given up hope for any real good stuff to come out from these guys regarding the economy. If AIG isn't resolved, bankrupted, and people sent off to jail, then I'll be done with O for good.

4/2/2009 2:53:13 PM

Quote :

"I've already basically given up hope for any real good stuff to come out from these guys regarding the economy. "

well that was fast.

4/2/2009 2:57:09 PM

What can I say? The only one bothering to do any investigating of these guys is the damn AG of New York. Where is the Obama administration in all this? Oh..they're crying about a fly on a horses ass in bonuses while money 1000x that has been funneled via AIG at 100% face value to banks, some of them foreign. You're ok with that? With your tax dollars going to foreign nationals when they made correct bets that weren't supposed to be paid off anyway (read the last link I posted)?

Geithner is doing everything he can to either put his GS buddies in power or to protect their lifestyle via his actions. I still have hope for O, but just like GWB, the President is only as good as the folks around him, so he's stuck.

[Edited on April 2, 2009 at 3:08 PM. Reason : .]

4/2/2009 3:06:08 PM

I think one area in which you and I would probably agree F-Boat is the risk of tyranny inherent in allowing the gov't and big business to start melding together. Giant mega-corporate/gov't enitities are bad for capitalism.

The gov't's role in the business world is to play referee, make sure there is a place to go when contracts are violated.

These gov't bail-outs, CEO/board take-overs, and salary caps should be scaring the Bee-Jeezus out of any liberty-loving citizen.

Hopefully more and more people will realize how Obama is trying to divert our attention away to trivial things while he is trying to triple our debt and de-facto nationalize key industries.

[Edited on April 2, 2009 at 8:09 PM. Reason : .]

4/2/2009 8:09:19 PM

what "trivial things" is Obama trying to distract us with?
If you are talking about the AIG bonuses, still, Obama was the last one on board in complaining about that one. Seems to me like he was going to ride it out, but the populist anger became so great he had to respond to it.

Obama has consistently said that getting a handle on energy and healthcare are the most important things we must do in this country - hardly "trivial details"


and please, some evidence of his supposed mass-nationalization plans. With all the money he's thrown at the banks, he could have (and probably should have, if he was still going to spend that money) fully nationalized almost all of Wall Street, but they have explicitly foregone the actual steps of nationalization (and therefore some of the controlling benefits that come with it). Even if they do go ahead and nationalize one or more of the big banks, what indications do you have that they plan on using that as a long term solution?

So, what else then - the auto industry? nope. Looks like GM is going to Chapter 11 and Crysler will die.

[Edited on April 2, 2009 at 9:29 PM. Reason : .]

4/2/2009 9:25:44 PM

Quote :

"I think one area in which you and I would probably agree F-Boat is the risk of tyranny inherent in allowing the gov't and big business to start melding together. Giant mega-corporate/gov't enitities are bad for capitalism. "

I agree with the spirit of your politics and position about these matters, but I just haven't picked up and moved to Tinhatsville like you have.

I still believe in the American people to be watchdogs and not let such catastrophic consequences the make you live in fear, happen. We aren't on any sort of slope to the socialistic hell you think we are...do you see how slow government moves? Do you see what happens when new presidents are elected? They immediately undue the shit the old ones started. If the people get pissed enough at any bullshit this administration pulls with their tax dollars, they'll vote them the fuck out, you can bank on it.

4/2/2009 9:55:04 PM

Quote :

"The gov't's role in the business world is to play referee, make sure there is a place to go when contracts are violated. "

Quote :

"The gov't's role in the business world is to play referee, make sure there is a place to go when contracts are violated. "

Quote :

"The gov't's role in the business world is to play referee, make sure there is a place to go when contracts are violated. "

Agreed

4/2/2009 11:21:14 PM

http://tinyurl.com/crs2cu

Quote :

"Payments ranged from an average of $5,403 to employees of its property-casualty group, to $51,026 on average for those in its asset management group."

So, on the side of the company that no doubt made the same steady profit they have always made, those guys got on average of 5k, and on the side that lost money hand over fist in '08 and needed the government to fork over billions, those guys got 10x that + the retention bonuses.

5/5/2009 9:52:41 PM

How about this suggestion fail boat. We stop giving them taxpayer money. They can do/pay whatever the hell they want to their employees and If you or I dont like we dont buy shit from their company... deal? Oh whats the name of that... ah... free market.

5/5/2009 10:29:52 PM

^
The Free Market is out.

Capitalism is evil.

It's socialism Baby!

Obama's gonna lead us to the promised land!

5/6/2009 10:25:04 AM

Quote :

"UPDATE: Disney CFO: Domestic Room Reservations Expected Flat By Nat Worden Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES Tom Staggs, chief financial officer with The Walt Disney Co. (DIS), said Tuesday that hotel room reservations at the company's domestic theme parks are flat for the rest of the company's fiscal year compared with its year-ago results. On a conference call following the media giant's second-quarter earnings release, Staggs said per capita spending by visitors at its domestic parks was down 6% in the second quarter. He also said attendance at its Walt Disney World Resort in Orlando, Fla., was down 1%, while attendance at its Disneyland resort in Anaheim, Calif., was up about 2%. Disney's parks business has been hit hard by the economic downturn. In response, the company launched its "Buy 4, Get 3 Free" promotional pricing offer, which boosted attendance. But those offerings also weighed on the company's profit margins. Staggs said the offer in Orlando helped to lift room occupancy to 89% versus 88% in the prior year but also contributed to a 17% decrease in per-room spending. In Anaheim, the company didn't have a comparable promotion and occupancy came in at 69%, down by 14 percentage points. Per-room spending at Disneyland Resort decreased by 6%. Overseas, Staggs said the company suffered weak guest spending and lower attendance at Disneyland Resort Paris, which drove operating income lower. Results in Tokyo and Hong Kong, however, improved. The company's revenue from its parks division fell 12% for the second quarter, while its operating income plunged 50%. "Our parks management did a good job in offsetting a portion of our revenue declines by reducing costs," said Staggs. "At the same time, we are careful to maintain the quality of our guest experience, so our cost-reduction opportunities are somewhat limited, especially given the relatively modest declines in volume that we are experiencing." "

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090505-720973.html

5/6/2009 10:35:51 AM