Quote :

"just fyi, if you backtalk the cops, you will suffer the consequences. quit acting like what he did was a-okay."

this is what i find wrong with all of this. there is no "don't backtalk the cops" law. ESPECIALLY when no one is in any imminent danger and there is no crime taking place.

7/21/2009 8:18:37 PM

There are some absolutely fucking ridiculous comments on the official statement ^^ just posted.

Quote :

"The renown Dr. Gates has an opportunity to send a major message, coincidently in the Obama era — a time when the country has changed and progressed, but the nature of certain individuals haven't. It would be easy and wrong to broad-brush any local police precinct or the entire Cambridge police department. What will be most effective for professor Gates to do is to file a civil lawsuit for major monetary damages against the individual police officers (not the department or city) initially engaged in this incident. Gates has the time, legal resources, credibility and overwhelming public integrity to do so."

[Edited on July 21, 2009 at 8:23 PM. Reason : ]

7/21/2009 8:23:29 PM

Interesting excerpts from interview between Gates and The Root:
http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks

On why his door was jammed:

Quote :

"It looked like someone’s footprint was there. So it’s possible that the door had been jimmied, that someone had tried to get in while I was in China. But for whatever reason, the lock was damaged."

Or maybe right before you got home? The fact that someone might have tried to break in your house and you don't when could potentially be a cause for concern and a reason why one would want a cop around to investigate? Nahhh.

On how he was treated by the cop:

Quote :

"All of a sudden, there was a policeman on my porch. And I thought, ‘This is strange.’ So I went over to the front porch still holding the phone, and I said ‘Officer, can I help you?’ And he said, ‘Would you step outside onto the porch.’ And the way he said it, I knew he wasn’t canvassing for the police benevolent association. All the hairs stood up on the back of my neck, and I realized that I was in danger. And I said to him no, out of instinct. I said, ‘No, I will not.’ ... He said ‘I’m here to investigate a 911 call for breaking and entering into this house.’ And I said ‘That’s ridiculous because this happens to be my house. And I’m a Harvard professor.’ He says ‘Can you prove that you’re a Harvard professor?’ I said yes, I turned and closed the front door to the kitchen where I’d left my wallet, and I got out my Harvard ID and my Massachusetts driver’s license which includes my address and I handed them to him. And he’s sitting there looking at them. ... So he’s looking at my ID, he asked me another question, which I refused to answer. And I said I want your name and your badge number because I want to file a complaint because of the way he had treated me at the front door. "

Was it really so strange to see a cop at your door after noticing someone possibly broke into your home???? Its funny that evidence of a potential break-in doesn't scare him (in cambridge mind you), but a cop asking to speak with him does (but I'm sure he gets grilled by racist cops all the time in Cambridge, Mass). Its also funny that Gate's descriptions of the cop's words don't differ from the police report and he never actually explains the substance of his complaint (how did the cop mistreat him to warrant a complaint? by asking to speak with him and for some ID during the process of investigating a reported break-in? We don't know.)

On his arrest:

Quote :

"It escalated as follows: I kept saying to him, ‘What is your name, and what is your badge number?’ and he refused to respond. I asked him three times, and he refused to respond. And then I said, ‘You’re not responding because I’m a black man, and you’re a white officer.’ That’s what I said. He didn’t say anything. He turned his back to me and turned back to the porch. And I followed him. I kept saying, “I want your name, and I want your badge number.” It looked like an ocean of police had gathered on my front porch. There were probably half a dozen police officers at this point. The mistake I made was I stepped onto the front porch and asked one of his colleagues for his name and badge number. And when I did, the same officer said, ‘Thank you for accommodating our request. You are under arrest.’ And he handcuffed me right there. "

Thank goodness. Now even Gate's statement confirms that he followed the cop outside (some people apparently were unwilling to believe the police report earlier).

After that its all he-said-he-said. On the one hand, the police report said Gates was hollering about racism and demanding the first cop's badge #, Gates was asked twice to calm down, and was arrested for "disorderly conduct" when he failed to do (contrary to apparent popular conception, disorderly conduct is not an imaginary crime they made up just to shit on Henry Louis Gates). On the other hand, Gates makes it sound like he was arrested for calmly asking questions.

I guess people can draw their own conclusions from there. But whatever we think, it sounds like there were close to 10 witnesses of the arrest, so I guess the truth will get sorted out if Gates bothers seeking legal action.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 8:53 AM. Reason : ``]

7/22/2009 8:29:15 AM

His story seems to have changed from the one his lawyer gave yesterday.

7/22/2009 8:42:54 AM

That one cop at the bottom sure is a waspy looking cross burning mother fucker.

7/22/2009 12:28:56 PM

i for one have not been focusing on the racial aspect of this (other than the fact that that is what made it a !story!) more that it's yet another instance of cops arresting someone for treating them with disrespect. nowhere has anyone suggested that he was a danger to anyone or that he wouldn't have likely shut up if the cops had just left after they determined he was the legal resident (owner?) of that house.

7/22/2009 12:52:16 PM

And how are you determining that its a case of asshole cops reacting to dis-respect?

The claims of the victim that cried RACIST at his first chance?

brilliant

7/22/2009 1:07:14 PM

Quote :

"Nowhere has anyone suggested that he was a danger to anyone"

Are you implying that someone should not be arrested unless they are a "danger" to other people???

If so, I think Megaloman has some literature that might interest you. He also seems to think that the foundation of criminal activity is in "aggression" and that you cannot be arrested for speaking loudly or causing a general disturbance.



PS* Even Gates says the cop went outside and Gates followed him. The police report said the cop was preparing to leave (after calling in the Harvard University Police) and Gates says the officer left in silence (and that the Harvard University Police appeared as if by magic). no matter whose story you believe the cop was exiting the residence.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 2:03 PM. Reason : ``]

7/22/2009 1:55:46 PM

that's not the ONLY situations in which someone should be arrested. i love how you keep trying to say i'm a libertarian because i don't think people should be arrested for being disrespectful to a cop.

the only time i think it's reasonable for a cop to arrest someone for being an ass like this is if it's somehow disrupting the cop while doing some sort of police duty (directing traffic or investigating a crime let's say). if he were interrupting something or hampering some legitimate police action, then sure arrest him. that simply wasn't the case here.

Quote :

" no matter whose story you believe the cop was exiting the residence."

and at some point he stopped exiting the residence/yard and proceeded to arrest gates. he could have continued exiting and gotten in his car and driven away.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 2:05 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 2:05 PM. Reason : .]

7/22/2009 2:03:50 PM

^

Quote :

"the only time i think it's reasonable for a cop to arrest someone for being an ass like this is if it's somehow disrupting the cop while doing some sort of police duty (directing traffic or investigating a crime let's say). if he were interrupting something or hampering some legitimate police action, then sure arrest him."

Do you mean like being uncooperative while a police officer is investing a reported "robbery in progress"!? (And please note that even Gates thinks that the reason his door is jammed is because someone might have tried to break in before he showed up).

What about just causing a disturbance in general? Yelling and screaming at a crowd of people as the police report says Gates was doing??? That sounds like disorderly conduct to me.

The only question is whether Gates was actually yelling and screaming and causing a disturbance (Cop says he was, Gates says he wasn't). And neither you nor I can know who is right. So I am still at a loss that you can act like you're so sure Gates was in the right at the same time admitting that your information sources are faulty and one-sided.

It's crazy!!!! You, my friend, *are crazy*.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 2:13 PM. Reason : ``]

7/22/2009 2:12:17 PM

Quote :

"when you stop making libertarian argument. You said no one had showed Gates to be dangerous, then admitted that being dangerous was a necessary pre-requisite for being arrested. I don't actually think you're a libertarian. But I do think you're picking up whatever arguments are handy to back up your pre-determined conclusion that Gates is right and the Cops are wrong. Don't worry, your distaste for cops will wear off when you stop skateboarding and listening to your walk-man and finally buy a home."

because i don't really want to talk to socks over pm.

this is the level of childishness that he has.

the investigation had concluded when they confirmed that he lived at the house. gates was orderly enough to get to that point. the cop himself said that he basically if he wanted to continue the argument he had to come outside. i have my suspicions that that was so that he could write him up for disorderly conduct because there were people outside. should gates have followed him outside and continued criticizing and causing a scene? probably not. but that doesn't make it criminal.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 2:25 PM. Reason : .]

7/22/2009 2:24:03 PM

^ haha sending a PM is childish? i only sent that in PM because I didn't want this thread to turn into "is sarijoul a libertarian or not". Since you were obviously being thick about why I keep making the assertion (I know you're not a libertarian, but you're obviously willing to use any argument you can find to support your pre-determined conclusion) i thought i would send a pm to explain.

Quote :

"the investigation had concluded when they confirmed that he lived at the house."

incorrect. at best he determined that Gates was not the person who broke in. it never got passed that (if you believe the police report) because Gates was causing such a fuss.

You also did not respond to this...

Quote :

"So I am still at a loss that you can act like you're so sure Gates was in the right at the same time admitting that your information sources are faulty and one-sided."

I am personally not sure Gates is at fault. You, however, are sure that he is not. Even though you admit none of the information we get will be an objective rendering of what happened. That seems....kinda crazy to me.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 2:29 PM. Reason : ``]

7/22/2009 2:29:16 PM

and the childish bit was resorting to "you'll understand when you're older little boy"

and how the hell old are you? you apparently just graduated from undergrad a couple months ago.

neither account says anything that should result in an arrest to me.

in both accounts he showed identification to the officer and the officer left his residence satisfied that he was the resident of that home.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 2:32 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 2:36 PM. Reason : .]

7/22/2009 2:32:18 PM

Quote :

"the investigation had concluded when they confirmed that he lived at the house. gates was orderly enough to get to that point. the cop himself said that he basically if he wanted to continue the argument he had to come outside. i have my suspicions that that was so that he could write him up for disorderly conduct because there were people outside. should gates have followed him outside and continued criticizing and causing a scene? probably not. but that doesn't make it criminal. "

According to the police report, Gates became upset and erratic almost immediately after meeting Crowly. That warrants suspicion, and justifies Crowly's deliberation on the identity issue.

I don't think anyone here will argue that Gates was violent or dangerous. I'm sure he was arrested for being a complete jackass, even though there really isnt a law against that. You won't find much sympathy for him because this kind of thing happens normally, every day. It's to be expected.

Edit - BTW in case you didnt infer already, Crowly is the officer. I figured it was about time we knew his name instead of just referring to the "officer" or "the cop".

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 2:51 PM. Reason : .]

7/22/2009 2:47:11 PM

Quote :

"Don't worry, your distaste for cops will wear off when you stop skateboarding and listening to your walk-man and finally buy a home.""

I still have an extreme distaste for cops, and I have a clean record, never been in trouble, and have owned multiple homes. I don't know what that has to do with anything.

7/22/2009 3:05:52 PM

I mistrust cops after reading all the TWW threads about them.

7/22/2009 3:25:18 PM

So you have a completely irrational distaste for people because of what they chose as a profession?

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 3:28 PM. Reason : ^^]

7/22/2009 3:28:17 PM

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 4:09 PM. Reason : nm]

7/22/2009 4:09:08 PM

Quote :

"neither account says anything that should result in an arrest to me. in both accounts he showed identification to the officer and the officer left his residence satisfied that he was the resident of that home."

umm. You do realize that Gates was not arrested because he didn't provide ID, yes? So i am not sure what that has to do with anything.

7/22/2009 4:46:11 PM

jesus christ. round and round we go.

because you said this:

Quote :

"incorrect. at best he determined that Gates was not the person who broke in. it never got passed that (if you believe the police report) because Gates was causing such a fuss."

if they had already identified him (before he even left his house), why did the cops stick around long enough to arrest him?

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 4:52 PM. Reason : .]

7/22/2009 4:51:16 PM

^
well, since Gates identified himself as a Harvard prof, Crowly called the Harvard University Police and waited for them to arrive.

Also, this was not just a matter of mistaken identity. Gates notes in his interview with the The Root that he thinks its possible his door was jammed because someone tried to break in. However, in either account you read, there was apparently no time to investigate that because Gates was too busy asking for Crowly's badge number and accusing him of being a racist.

But that's just what I can infer from the two accounts. Neither Crowly nor Gates is very clear about how much time actually elapsed.

But....I still have no clue what that has to do with anything.....

7/22/2009 5:25:44 PM

no account says anything about the police actually trying to investigate the previous robbery gates had experienced.

7/22/2009 5:29:10 PM

so if you ask a cop for their name and badge number are they required to comply?

7/22/2009 5:31:26 PM

yes

and that appears to be a he said she said thing in this case. the officer, ahem, crowly says he provided multiple times. gates says that he didn't provide it.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 5:34 PM. Reason : .]

7/22/2009 5:33:39 PM

you're sharp.

Quote :

"no account says anything about the police actually trying to investigate the previous robbery gates had experienced."

-sarijoul

Quote :

"However, in either account you read, there was apparently no time to investigate that because Gates was too busy asking for Crowly's badge number and accusing him of being a racist."

-Socks``

I only mention it to point out this wasn't just a case of mistaken identity that could be sovled w/showing your ID.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 5:48 PM. Reason : ``]

7/22/2009 5:46:06 PM

where does it say anything about "no time to investigate the robbery" other than your statement?

for all we know, there was already an investigation into said robbery in the immediate aftermath of it.

7/22/2009 5:53:06 PM

Quote :

"People who teach European History and Classical Literature typically do not do so with a direct, overt intention to advance a particular political agenda."

lmao

Quote :

" That one cop at the bottom sure is a waspy looking cross burning mother fucker."

Some cops are black therefore there is no institutional racism in this country.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 6:11 PM. Reason : .]

7/22/2009 6:10:46 PM

^ haha um, a robbery was reported, Crowly shows up to investigate, finds Gates, and then after that the only thing is mentioned is how the officer deals with Crowly. IOW: There is no mention of further investigation into the robbery. That's all i meant.

I phrased my sentence in a way to imply that Gates attitude was what held up any further investigation. Of course, I don't know that for sure, so I didn't say that was explicitly what happened. But I guess a lot of things are flying over your head today.

But I'm heading out son. Peace!

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 6:11 PM. Reason : ``]

7/22/2009 6:10:52 PM

the actual robbery happened months before by the way. just looked it up.

7/22/2009 6:17:37 PM

And now our President weighs in on the matter..

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=8148986&page=1

Quote :

"President Barack Obama says police in Cambridge, Mass., acted "stupidly" this week when they arrested Harvard University professor Henry Louis Gates, someone they knew was in his own home. "

He's talks about race later in the article. Personally, I'm very disappointed.

7/22/2009 10:48:44 PM

I guess there's only one door on this guy's house, or maybe Harvard professors don't know how to call a locksmith.

Quote :

"I'm very disappointed."

I'd be disappointed if I was surprised but I'm not. Obama would NEVER admit that this guy was in the wrong or even assume that both parties were partially at fault.

7/22/2009 11:15:01 PM

i'm disappointed the question was asked in the first place. i would have been happy if he had said something like "i don't know and it's irrelevant to this press conference"

7/22/2009 11:32:03 PM

Quote :

"I guess there's only one door on this guy's house, or maybe Harvard professors don't know how to call a locksmith."

The door was jammed shut. I heard on the radio yesterday it was an old house, and he was gone for a couple weeks, and the humidity swelled the door and it was jammed (that used to happen in my house growing up).

So he went around to the back door to let himself in, then tried to open the front door from the inside and couldn't get it, then went back around front where his driver was and they eventually forced the door open.


Unfortunately, Obama wasn't up to date on all the facts of the case, which is understandable, though, given the amount of news he has to absorb daily (i.e. he's not watching CNN Headline News all day for "breaking news" on the "Gates case"). So, not having all the facts straight himself, Obama unfortunately spread some misinformation about the case to the audience.

I think his response overall was fine, but like sarijoul, I think the bigger disappointment is that the question was asked to begin with. The press conference was supposed to be about health care, and it was for the first 50 minutes, but the final reporter couldn't help herself and wanted to get a scoop on a more inflammatory topic.

7/22/2009 11:58:42 PM

Quote :

"Unfortunately, Obama wasn't up to date on all the facts of the case, which is understandable, though, given the amount of news he has to absorb daily (i.e. he's not watching CNN Headline News all day for "breaking news" on the "Gates case"). So, not having all the facts straight himself, Obama unfortunately spread some misinformation about the case to the audience. I think his response overall was fine, but like sarijoul, I think the bigger disappointment is that the question was asked to begin with. The press conference was supposed to be about health care, and it was for the first 50 minutes, but the final reporter couldn't help herself and wanted to get a scoop on a more inflammatory topic."

Well, he talked about it as if he had watched it unfold. He should have said he didn't know and it wasn't his business to get involved.

7/23/2009 6:25:28 AM

Quote :

"Some cops are black therefore there is no institutional racism in this country."

That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Good job.

7/23/2009 7:33:08 AM

^^ i agree.
The question now is this, i think: Was he prepared to answer that question, or was it an off-the-cuff response because they didn't anticipate it?
If they had anticipated a question about it and wanted to answer it, they should have been sure that Obama was 100% up on all the latest facts, and any commentary he gave was carefully worded and smart. Or, he could have prepared a couple sentences about how he was not going to answer that question because 1) it's not about health care, and 2) it's an ongoing situation, and 3) it's a local matter.

It sounded to me like he didn't have an answer prepared, so he gave the story that he's heard stitched together in the media, then gave some off the top of his head analysis, which is of course dangerous for someone in his position to do.

7/23/2009 10:13:14 AM

^The WRAL version of the story makes it sound like it was asked unexpectedly at the tail end of his conference. It also talks about how Gates is Obama's close personal friend.

Drudge Report and WRAL articles did a good job on characterizing the officer's perspective and showing that he wasn't wrong, and that the local police force is standing behind him in not issuing an apology.

http://www.wral.com/news/national_world/national/story/5639828/


[Edited on July 23, 2009 at 10:37 AM. Reason : link]

7/23/2009 10:35:48 AM

it was the last question of the press conference, in which every other question had at least something to do with health care. since that's what the press conference was billed as.

7/23/2009 12:04:23 PM

Quote :

"i'm disappointed the question was asked in the first place. i would have been happy if he had said something like "i don't know and it's irrelevant to this press conference" "

I totally agree.


After reading both officers police reports, this professor sounds like a big asshole. (at that moment at least)

7/23/2009 12:35:41 PM

I've gotta be honest, I would probably be a HUGE asshole if I got arrested going into my own house, regardless of the circumstances.

7/23/2009 12:41:23 PM

yeah, i'm still unclear, actually, as to exactly why he was arrested.

He clearly was acting like a dick, and probably pompous or whatever. But again, that's not exactly illegal..... What were the charges, after he proved he was in his own house?

7/23/2009 12:44:36 PM

It's weird that I should be allowed to shoot and kill a drunk guy inadvertently at my door, but i'm not allowed to be pissed for being arrested for being in my own house.

7/23/2009 1:05:54 PM

It's ok to be pissed afterwards.

He flipped out before he had any credible reason to. This is abnormal and, in the context of an investigation, suspicious.

7/23/2009 1:19:41 PM

he wasnt arrested for breaking into his own house spooky. Did you read that somewhere?

7/23/2009 1:20:05 PM

^^ i'm pretty sure any normal person, white or black, would be pissed during the incident.

"this is my house, here's my ID, now GTFO"

^ and al capone was arrested merely for tax evasion right?

[Edited on July 23, 2009 at 1:25 PM. Reason : ]

7/23/2009 1:24:28 PM

Quote :

"I've gotta be honest, I would probably be a HUGE asshole if I got arrested going into my own house I was a cop doing a public service investigating a break-in and immediately had the suspect artificially inject race into the scenario, regardless of the circumstances."

7/23/2009 1:31:00 PM

Thank you CapnObvious

7/23/2009 1:39:09 PM

He was charged with disorderly conduct, and the charges were dropped.

In Massachusetts, disorderly conduct is the following:

Quote :

" Section 53. Common night walkers, common street walkers, both male and female, common railers and brawlers, persons who with offensive and disorderly acts or language accost or annoy persons of the opposite sex, lewd, wanton and lascivious persons in speech or behavior, idle and disorderly persons, disturbers of the peace, keepers of noisy and disorderly houses, and persons guilty of indecent exposure may be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than six months, or by a fine of not more than two hundred dollars, or by both such fine and imprisonment."

And according to the MA criminal defense page, a disorderly person is defined as

Quote :

" A disorderly person is defined as one who: with purpose to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creates a risk thereof engages in fighting or threatening, violent or tumultuous behavior, or creates a hazard or physically offensive condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose. "

Yelling at a cop in the middle of an investigation of a crime fits this bill well, I think. At least well enough to be arrested, possibly not convicted depending on the circumstances.

7/23/2009 1:43:20 PM

I would cooperate and probably laugh it off with the cop when he figured out that it was my house.

In this day and age it should be common sense that antagonizing a cop is a stupid thing to do, no matter how pissed off and justified you feel. He's a human just like you who can get pissed off when they're having a bad day, the difference is that a court will generally side with him over you simply by virtue of who he is. Is it fair? Not really, but it's certainly no secret. You'd think that an expert on african american history would understand that YES, COPS CAN BE DICKS.

7/23/2009 2:12:28 PM

and the cop should have known the shitstorm (for no real net gain) that would be caused by arresting the guy.

7/23/2009 2:14:13 PM