I don't know why we even try to reason with God. He's a complete idiot.

5/18/2010 4:24:26 PM

signed.

5/18/2010 5:19:18 PM

Quote :

"the mental illness should have simply saved him from the needle and given him life (whether it be in a mental institution, or prison). "

So you support zero-tolerance-esque policies then?

Based on the limited information in the first post, he seems to have become a productive, stable member of society. There doesn't seem to be a reason to keep him locked away.

I wish there was a way we we could release more criminals who have reformed themselves.

[Edited on May 18, 2010 at 6:36 PM. Reason : ]

5/18/2010 6:36:20 PM

Quote :

"Based on the limited information in the first post, he seems to have become a productive, stable member of society."

You'd think a productive, stable member of society would find the time to apologize to Linda Cantrell

5/18/2010 6:39:35 PM

Quote :

"he pulled the trigger multiple times knowing projectiles would exit the barrel likely killing people."

Don't you mean the demons sent from hell? Because that's what happened.

Let's try another analogy:

We're at a party together. I spike your drink with LSD. You go on a real bad acid trip. The walls are melting, and everyone has become a demon with horns. Think the spray mist that The Scarecrow used in Batman Begins. Thinking you're in danger of being killed by demons, you shoot the people. It turns out they were normal people, and you normally wouldn't have shot them had your mental capacity not been affected beyond your control.

Do you think you should be given life in prison because you're a dangerous person who will re-offend?

Quote :

"You'd think a productive, stable member of society would find the time to apologize to Linda Cantrell"

How do you know he hasn't? The article wasn't exactly in his favor.

[Edited on May 18, 2010 at 6:42 PM. Reason : ]

5/18/2010 6:41:58 PM

Quote :

"How do you know he hasn't?"

I don't, I can only go off the article in the OP. What are you going off of? The fake article you made up where he drinks 3 Bud Lights and takes a hit off a joint?

Quote :

"I spike your drink with LSD."

Quote :

"and you normally wouldn't have shot them had your mental capacity not been affected beyond your control."

Wait...someone forced him to drink alcohol and take illegal drugs before going on his killing spree? He didn't have control over the drugs and alcohol he put into his body prior to going on his shooting rampage?

Once again, your analogy is a terrible one.

Its almost like you're advocating this guy's release as if he was a simple non-violent offender who got caught with a bag of weed...when in reality, we're talking about someone who killed 4 people and wounded 5 more.

I'm all for releasing non-violent drug offenders from overcrowded prisons...but people who commit multiple homicides? Not near the top of my list of criminals who should be released.

Quit trying to make Hayes the victim, when the real victims are the people he killed, their families, the people he shot, their families, etc.

5/18/2010 6:50:13 PM

^ if he was truly schizophrenic, he's not the monster he's being made out to be either.

5/18/2010 7:03:20 PM

Quote :

"people who commit multiple homicides"

he was found innocent by a judge/jury

5/18/2010 7:04:59 PM

^ that doesn't change the fact that he committed murder.

the act of murder is independent of a legal or political system.

5/18/2010 7:06:42 PM

^^he was also have found to have shot 9 people and killed 4 of them...whether or not he killed the 4 people is not up for debate...he and his lawyers admit as much...

he did indeed commit multiple homicides...I'm not calling them murders, because you'll call me out for semantics

but to somehow imply that he didn't do the crimes (regardless of what was going on in his head) is just dishonest

^^^i guess my question is (and i'm obviously no medical expert)...can someone have schizophrenia...go on a killing spree in 1988...and then according to the article in the OP exhibit no schizophrenic behavior from 1989 to now? seems awfully convenient

i also wonder how long the 'insanity plea' had been being used when this trial was in court

5/18/2010 7:08:20 PM

Has disco_stu posted in here yet blaming it on religion?

5/18/2010 7:14:15 PM

no but whats funny is God, who is the type of atheist who constantly lashes out at anyone who believes in a diety and tells them how dumb they are for being theists, is bending over backwards to buy this guy's story that demons came into his head, told him they were God, and commanded him to kill people

5/18/2010 7:15:19 PM

so do you think he should remain in a mental hospital so the victims can get retribution or to protect the rest of society from him?

5/18/2010 7:16:23 PM

The legal system doesn't really give "eye for an eye" retribution. I just think anyone who kills 4 people (could've easily been 9 people) shouldn't be out on the streets.

If he's mentally unstable, keep him in a mental hospital for awhile. If he's not mentally unstable (and if he hasn't been mentally unstable since 1989, according to his lawyers) he should've been in prison and should still be

to answer your question, i think the bigger positive of him remaining locked up is to protect the rest of society, moreso than to give the victims' families piece of mind

[Edited on May 18, 2010 at 7:19 PM. Reason : .]

5/18/2010 7:17:28 PM

Quote :

"no but whats funny is God, who is the type of atheist who constantly lashes out at anyone who believes in a diety and tells them how dumb they are for being theists, is bending over backwards to buy this guy's story that demons came into his head, told him they were God, and commanded him to kill people "

I haven't really read any of this thread other than this last page, but the most rational perspective on this, given what we know, is that this guy legitimately thought those people were demons.

If this is what God thinks in this thread, then he's right.

5/18/2010 7:19:07 PM

i see your point but this situation isn't about getting out of jail. this is about release from a mental facility when he is no longer considered a menace to society. i guess you're saying the court system failed in this case, which is fair.

5/18/2010 7:20:13 PM

^^ thats what the psychologists determined that interviewed him, so if thats not the case then it's the medical professionals that screwed the pooch

5/18/2010 7:21:13 PM

Quote :

"the most rational perspective on this, given what we know, is that this guy legitimately thought those people were demons"

i'm going to disagree with this

i think the most rational perspective is the guy got fucked up, went on a shooting spree, and was able to get out of a life sentence by pleaing insanity, even though his lawyers say he has been mentally stable since 1989, less than a year after his trial

Quote :

"i guess you're saying the court system failed in this case, which is fair."

yeah i think the legal system screwed up, but i also dont think their fuckup should absolve this guy of guilt

^was it a true psychological evaluation by a third party, or was it someone his lawyers could get to testify in favor of the insanity plea?

[Edited on May 18, 2010 at 7:23 PM. Reason : .]

5/18/2010 7:21:36 PM

then you should blame things on the court system (aka government) if he kills again

5/18/2010 7:22:56 PM

^perhaps...although why not be proactive, make up for the court system's first mistake, and keep him locked up so he doesn't kill again?

my repeated "if/when he kills again" statements simply won't happen if he remains locked up...no need to blame the court system twice if he kills, gets off easy with the insanity plea, gets let out, and kills again

why not just make sure he doesn't kill again by keeping him locked up?

5/18/2010 7:24:22 PM

^^^ you can disagree with me, but that doesn't change that fact that your position is less rational than God's and 9 trained mental health experts.

Are you aware of the type of disease schizophrenia is?

How many people do you know get murderous after they are drunk and wasted?

[Edited on May 18, 2010 at 7:25 PM. Reason : ]

5/18/2010 7:25:22 PM

court won't admit it screwed up. it took the development of the Innocence Commission to get that guy out of jail that had been wrongly convicted like 20 yrs ago

5/18/2010 7:26:39 PM

Quote :

"How many people do you know get murderous after they are drunk and wasted?"

that depends...wasted from smoking weed? nobody i know of

wasted by smoking PCP or crack? thats a whole nother story

the link in the OP doesn't expand on the drugs he was on during the killings

nor does it mention any evaluation by 9 psychologists, post another link if theres one with more details

[Edited on May 18, 2010 at 7:28 PM. Reason : .]

5/18/2010 7:26:44 PM

Quote :

"wasted by smoking PCP or crack? thats a whole nother story "

what other story? otherwise healthy people who smoke crack or PCP will randomly shoot 9 people?

what this boils down to is that based solely on your uninformed gut feeling, and not any knowledge or information about this incident, you think this guy is not actually nuts, he was just wasted and decided to shoot 9 people while on drugs.

Of course, you are allowed to have this "gut feeling" and you might even be right, but it's strange that you condemn someone else for disagreeing when you, when that person is just taking the most logical position.

5/18/2010 7:33:46 PM

i fail to see how assuming someone had demons in their head is somehow the most rational or logical position in this story

but i'm sure Hayes's lawyers would've loved to have you and God on the jury

and i don't know anyone who is "otherwise healthy" that smokes crack or PCP...the guy clearly had/has something wrong with him...that doesn't give him a free pass to kill people and blame it on demons

5/18/2010 7:35:47 PM

Quote :

"that doesn't give him a free pass to kill people and blame it on demons"

It doesn't, and it didn't.

Quote :

"i fail to see how assuming someone had demons in their head is somehow the most rational or logical position in this story "

Because if you know anything about schizophrenia, their hallucinations are extremely powerful. The article states that this guy was schizophrenic and had to be hospitalized. Therefore based on the facts at hand, this was more than simply some guy that was high and killed people.

5/18/2010 7:39:08 PM

Quote :

"The article states that this guy was schizophrenic and had to be hospitalized."

Yes, after he went on his shooting spree and went to trial...he hadn't been hospitalized prior to the court case, at least according to the article

And I don't know a whole lot about schizophrenia...but I do know drugs can amplify the effects...why was he taking drugs? Did he not know he had schizophrenia until this particular time he got wasted?

heres some more info, linked from the article on charlotteobserver.com (article itself is identical to the OP ITT)

Quote :

"Michael Charles Hayes was charged with killing four people and wounding five on July 17, 1988. The shootings happened near a moped shop where Hayes, then 24, worked. Hayes went from car to car, shooting passing motorists with a .22-caliber rifle. Killed were Thomas Walter Nicholson, 24, of Winston-Salem; Crystal Susan Cantrell, 16, of Winston-Salem; Melinda Yvonne Hayes, 21, of Lexington (no relation to Michael Hayes); and Ronald Lee Hull, 32, of Winston-Salem. A jury found Hayes not guilty by reason of insanity. A psychologist testified that Hayes believed himself to be on a mission from God to rid the world of demons. Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/05/18/1442832/man-who-killed-4-to-be-freed.html#ixzz0oKMtFHrw"

[Edited on May 18, 2010 at 7:45 PM. Reason : .]

5/18/2010 7:43:06 PM

Quote :

"^perhaps...although why not be proactive, make up for the court system's first mistake, and keep him locked up so he doesn't kill again? "

Because we have a constitutional prohibition against charging and punishing people twice for the same crime. In particular:

Quote :

"Amendment V No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. "

We had our chance to lock him up for life when he stood trial for murder. The jury decided that he was not guilty of the crime of murder. We don't get a do over because 20 years later we're still pissed.

5/18/2010 7:45:51 PM

Quote :

"he hadn't been hospitalized prior to the court case, at least according to the article"

That would explain why he was out free having hallucinations. If he was under medical care before the killings, he would have already been locked up, or taking medications to control his hallucinations (and probably not killed anyone).

5/18/2010 7:47:57 PM

some interesting stuff here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hayes_(spree_killer)

started using drugs at age 13, had a bullying personality, was stealing money from work, etc

doesn't exactly sound like he was a saint who just happened to have some bad hallucinations one day

[Edited on May 18, 2010 at 7:55 PM. Reason : fixed broken link]

5/18/2010 7:51:49 PM

Quote :

"The doctors said Hayes was drunk and high on illegal drugs when he went on a rampage with a .22 caliber rifle"

I like this. You can get trashed and kill four people and blame it on insanity and then get released within a number of years.

5/18/2010 7:58:39 PM

supposedly it was marijuana that he was on...

Quote :

"doesn't exactly sound like he was a saint who just happened to have some bad hallucinations one day "

I don't think anyone was saying he was a saint who flipped out one day.

Most crazy people (probably all) have a history of being crazy... figures doesn't it?

[Edited on May 18, 2010 at 8:03 PM. Reason : ]

5/18/2010 8:02:09 PM

Quote :

"supposedly it was marijuana that he was on.."

according to what? hopefully something other than what God made up

i'm legitimately curious if he was just a crazy person who went wrong with some beer and weed...or if he really really fucked his shit up by tripping some acid or smoking some sherm or something like that

[Edited on May 18, 2010 at 8:04 PM. Reason : .]

5/18/2010 8:03:19 PM

The sources cited on Wikipedia are dead links. But the winston-salem journal site has an article from 2009 that claims it was marijuana... don't tell me you took the wiki article on blind faith on such a controversial issue...?

Do you make it a habit to blindly believe things you read online?

http://www2.journalnow.com/content/2009/aug/21/freedom-for-hayes/

[Edited on May 18, 2010 at 8:05 PM. Reason : ]

5/18/2010 8:04:52 PM

i figured by posting a wikipedia link that i inherently implied "this is wikipedia, take it fwiw"

its still expansion of this story, since everybody has just been going off the same article throughout the whole thread

Quote :

"Do you make it a habit to blindly believe things you read online?"

hahahaha...classic...you ask me this, and immediately afterwards, you post a link to something you just read online

5/18/2010 8:05:56 PM

i'm not asserting the truth of it, you just asked where i read it from...

5/18/2010 8:07:40 PM

yes, and thank you for posting the link, i appreciate it

i literally just wanted to know where you got that information, because when God claimed earlier in the thread that he had "3 Bud Lights and a hit off a joint" (i might be paraphrasing) I asked him where he got that info and he never responded

the fact that it was weed and not something more serious certainly seems to strengthen the case that he had preexisting mental problems, not that that makes the killings alright

i'm just trying to get more details cause this story has been quite interesting to me today

still you have to wonder if he started doing drugs at age 13, he mightve done more than just smoke a little weed in the 10 years before he went on the shooting spree at age 23

[Edited on May 18, 2010 at 8:16 PM. Reason : .]

5/18/2010 8:09:10 PM

Quote :

"Has disco_stu posted in here yet blaming it on religion?"

Well since you asked...
If the asshole had spent a single second of introspection to wonder if he'd ever heard from God before or had ever seen demons or whether they were actually true he *MAY* have recognized his delusion and sought medical attention.

Granted, I don't know his actual psychosis, and he could very well have faked the whole thing. If that's the case, the fact that anyone would consider "i thought they were demons" plausible is to be blamed on religion.

It's not religion at fault here directly. It's the fact that our society generally lacks the skepticism to deal with this type of psychosis. I see a demon. Wait, i think demons actually exist. This isn't a figment of my imagination or a result of my imperfect sensory input, they must be actual demons.

But that's cool, I'm sure you think he actually was influenced by Satan or something.


----------------------------------------------
Further, this is a PRIME EXAMPLE of what I'm talking about when I talk about the dangerousness of ACTING on beliefs that have no basis in reality. If he honestly thought he saw demons, his belief that such a thing actually exists is what caused him to murder people. If he didn't believe in demons we wouldn't have had this conversation, and there would be 9 fewer casualties in the world.

[Edited on May 19, 2010 at 12:28 AM. Reason : further]


V BA-ZING, you really got me on that one!

[Edited on May 19, 2010 at 12:32 AM. Reason : V]

5/19/2010 12:17:12 AM

too easy...nvm.

5/19/2010 12:28:46 AM

lol wrong thread

[Edited on May 19, 2010 at 2:54 AM. Reason : s]

5/19/2010 2:52:01 AM