the writing has been awfully on point as well. "if i wanted to see two negroes fight I would throw a dollar bill out my window" all the open talking about who is a jew.

I'd say Don is definitely on his downward spiral, still. This includes the way in which he conducts his business. Don kept making these drawings and ideas for the samsonite ad, but peggy kept mentioning how they aren't tv-style ads. Times are changing and Don is getting left along with everyone else.

9/6/2010 6:58:53 PM

I don't know.

I think the last episode, with revealing so much of himself to Peggy, might be the beginning of Don turning things around.

9/6/2010 7:52:41 PM

^ I'd buy that, since Peggy can now be used as his personal outlet as a replacement for Anna.

While they're hinting at it a little bit I think.. I'm actually hoping they keep Don and Peggy in a more brother / sister relationship.. a romantic one would just be predictable and awkward. I'm hoping for something a little more sophisticated than a Friends-esque "who hasn't dated who yet? we need another season.." sit-com.

[Edited on September 6, 2010 at 8:04 PM. Reason : ]

9/6/2010 8:02:09 PM

^couldn't agree more.

presently, their relationship has a genuine emotional resonance. for me, that'd probably be lost if they fucked.

9/6/2010 10:16:10 PM

MAN WASN'T MEANT TO FLY!!!!

And Don's disdain for Muhammad Ali, a man who changed his name and transformed himself...is really something...

This writing is soooooo gooooood, and I could talk about it forever.

But I won't.

9/6/2010 11:10:22 PM

if i had to guess, i'd say don doesn't like ali's mouth. he doesn't care for bragging most of the time.. and ali was definitely a braggart.

and ^^ exactly

9/6/2010 11:23:52 PM

Duck putting Don on the ground was pretty damn embarrassing.

9/6/2010 11:28:33 PM

HE KILLED 17 MEN IN OKINAWA

9/6/2010 11:30:59 PM

^^^If you had to guess?

He practically uttered that explicitly.

The irony there is still delicious.

^AHAHA

9/6/2010 11:33:45 PM

i missed him saying that; i think i was eating supper while watching it, not sure

well, at least i was right

9/6/2010 11:47:34 PM

Bert Cooper castrated.

9/7/2010 12:06:24 AM

Definitely think Don is out of his rut, as signified by how put together he was the next morning when Peggy came in. He looked like he had a full night's sleep and the sun was shining, I think he's through being an idiot.

9/7/2010 12:09:58 AM

Was the whole thing with Don putting his hand on Peggy's a throwback to the first episode where she put her hand on Don's and he snapped at her.

9/7/2010 12:18:49 AM

i'm not so sure... i hope he's past his rut, but i'm not sure it's representative of the overall narrative

don draper is the child of early 20th century manhood

he has choices... he can either change with the times around him (which he is TRYING to do in a way) or he can hold fast to the patriarch that has made him powerful

it's fairly obvious... if you want him to stay the old hard drinking, dismissive, womanizing don draper we all know and love, he's gonna fail... it's just the way the series is written

but i don't think that means he needs to be neutered... there's plenty of room in the late 60s/70s for a sharper don draper... NEVER confuse a feminist-educated man for a weak man... there's no reason for him to embrace liberal values as a whole

but he can understand these things, see how he can evolve as a person and STILL make a buck? it's entirely possible, and frankly, done every day

the biggest question to me isn't "how does don draper make it out of episode x," but more "does don draper still exist today?" and "does he still succeed?"

[Edited on September 7, 2010 at 12:37 AM. Reason : rut]

9/7/2010 12:31:48 AM

^^^I dunno. He did the same bright-eyed/bushy-tailed thing last week after he picked up that waitress during a blackout, and Peggy dropped by to tell him he took the schmuck's idea.

9/7/2010 1:28:51 AM

I think we'll see a new and improved Don moving forward.

9/8/2010 2:08:41 PM

Joan is gonna beat somebody's ass about the mess in that break room.

9/12/2010 3:39:26 PM

nice to see don picking himself up.

another good episode i thought.

9/12/2010 11:03:25 PM

Looks like Don is pulling hot ass instead of bar trash again.

9/13/2010 12:03:26 AM

Holy crap this was a great episode. There aren't many shows, or even movies that can make every scene feel like it's important, but this episode was just solid from start to finish. This show is approaching The Wire levels of quality.

9/13/2010 4:38:02 AM

Agreed, that was a fantastic episode. I liked seeing Peggy being able to wield some power in the office. Don's pulling everything back together, I just hope it does set him up for the big fall.

9/13/2010 8:04:47 AM

Joan completely freaked out. I also took a lot from that one guy's comment "fun is over boys" since that was a small example for big changes that took place at work environments on a much larger scale. Work stopped being a boys club.

I feel bad for the young girl who gave him the bj in the cab, because shes really into him and his interest are definitely elsewhere.

Betty is of course being a wild psycho bitch, but thats her thing.

Oh and the scene where the sound completely went away as he just watched people drink over and over was pretty damn good as well.

9/13/2010 8:36:17 AM

i used to at least feel a little sorry for betty

but now i just hate her guts

9/13/2010 7:41:02 PM

I only got in on it last season, though I'm about halfway through season 1 on dvd. Maybe that's why I've always thought that Betty was a nutjob.

9/13/2010 8:59:38 PM

everytime im like "Betty is a bitch" my wife is like "imagine all of what Don put her through" and im like "nope, no excuse. take the high road, bitch"

9/13/2010 9:09:11 PM

Quote :

"IRSeriousCat: Joan completely freaked out. I also took a lot from that one guy's comment "fun is over boys" since that was a small example for big changes that took place at work environments on a much larger scale. Work stopped being a boys club. I feel bad for the young girl who gave him the bj in the cab, because shes really into him and his interest are definitely elsewhere. "

That wasn't just a boys' club with dirty jokes and drunken advances at the office party. Dude said she walked around trying to get raped and compared her to the madame of a whore house. And then drew a pornographic picture of her and posted it where she could see it. His behavior was actually kinda scary...

And don't feel bad for the young girl. She's not in to Don. She's into getting a husband. She probably blows lots of dudes in cabs, and one of them will eventually marry her...you gotta kiss a lot of frogs, you know.

9/13/2010 10:35:03 PM

Joan's freak out on Peggy was more out of line than the one on the kid. He deserved to get fired.

The past two episodes have been top notch, especially the last.

9/13/2010 10:54:57 PM

Quote :

"That wasn't just a boys' club with dirty jokes and drunken advances at the office party. Dude said she walked around trying to get raped and compared her to the madame of a whore house. And then drew a pornographic picture of her and posted it where she could see it. His behavior was actually kinda scary..."

Not that I'm trying to justify his behavior, because, as someone speaking from 2010, you can't justify that sort of thing, but I feel like that sort of stuff was fairly typical back then. I feel like the only reason he got fired was because he was treating Joan like she was just a lowly secretary, when she (and Peggy) were actually women in positions of moderate power. If all of the actions you described really had been directed towards (and committed around) secretaries, I don't think anyone would have cared, except the secretary, but she really wouldn't have been able to do much about it.

9/13/2010 11:30:11 PM

After the Rolling Stones Satisfaction scene, I want to be Don Draper when I grow up, this guy is cooler than Matthew McConaughey in Dazed & Confused

9/14/2010 12:09:20 AM

^I bet you watched The Sopranos to see people get whacked.

9/14/2010 12:29:38 AM

Didn't everyone?

9/14/2010 12:42:06 AM

^No. Definitely no.

^^^^I feel you. But I still feel like it was extreme. I imagine back then he would have said precisely what you said: I'm not going to take advice/orders from you because you're a lowly secretary woman, and I don't respect you.

Instead, he essentially said: I'm not going to take advice/orders from you because you're a big tittied office slut who walks around trying to get fucked against her will.

Dude clearly had a serious problem, which he kinda touched on when he went rambling on about his mother. It was more than just boys being boys.

9/14/2010 12:59:37 AM

Oops, I havent been following this thread, are we not supposed to like Don Draper? What are the rules?

Somehow my one comment got compared to something about people getting killed in Sopranos?

9/14/2010 1:07:30 AM

Quote :

"are we not supposed to like Don Draper?"

It has nothing to do with liking Don Draper, it has to do with you not comprehending the show on a level deeper than "Don Draper fucks hot bitch, he's the man" just like you demonstrated you didn't understand The Sopranos on a level more significant than "Tony had that guy killed, he's such a badass".

9/14/2010 1:58:33 AM

im sorry, did you think I was someone else when I wrote that? Maybe someone you've had ongoing conversations about Mad Men with? i didnt realize you were the expert on everything

Quote :

"please don't, you're like an infant when it comes to film...nobody wants to read what you have to say about it."

Quote :

"I'm sure it's comprised chiefly of films everyone else realized were good 5 years ago"

Quote :

"go home and get your fucking shinebox"

Quote :

"You do know what the word domestic means right?"

Quote :

"I predict zxappeal will make a thread about another vastly overrated 20th century author like George Orwell in the near future."

Quote :

"just because a bunch of other dumbasses on the internet also don't know what a hipster or a yuppie is doesn't make you right."

Quote :

"Ayn Rand didn't write characters so much as ideological mouthpieces."

Quote :

"You realize there is a difference between being a director and a cameraman right?"

Quote :

"personally I find most dubstep somewhere on a spectrum between grating and boring, and the dubstep remixes of popular songs are universally terrible."

Quote :

"don't mind him, he's just another proudly ignorant conservative"

Quote :

"or maybe some of you have no standards and would watch this show no matter how bad the acting/writing was."

Quote :

"I thought only underage kids played power hour."

Quote :

"Skyy is overpriced and mediocre"

Quote :

"Ray Bradbury is great, and fuck you if you don't like hard sci-fi"

Quote :

"The fact that they haven't done it before is as good a reason as anything you have come up with. You can continue to spout a bunch of superfluous nonsense about TV if you want, but it's pretty obvious you don't know what you're talking about. "

[Edited on September 14, 2010 at 2:44 AM. Reason : ]

9/14/2010 2:24:56 AM

Quote :

"and you think your 21 year old opinion matters so much that you get to insult someone else's opinion"

I'm not 21, and here's another newsflash: my names isn't jebus...but that's some nice grasping at straws

Quote :

"1) ever watched the sopranos in my life"

You certainly implied you did with your previous post

Quote :

"you summarizing my "comprehension" of the show by my one comment?"

It was a pretty fucking stupid comment, for reasons that should be obvious to anyone who has actually watched the show for more than several episodes

[Edited on September 14, 2010 at 2:46 AM. Reason : ahhh ok here we go with the post stalking because you don't have an actual point to make.]

9/14/2010 2:45:18 AM

My point is you're a douche who thinks they know everything about everything, who does not respect other people's comments and plays the internet tough guy

Continue on, I didn't mean to ruin this good thing you had going here as the all-knowing-tv-genius

9/14/2010 2:47:51 AM

Nice ad hominem argument, care to employ any other commonly used logical fallacies? I really shouldn't have to elaborate on why aspiring to be Don Draper is problematic, since it's one of the main fucking themes of the show but I can in PM form if you really don't understand. Also if you haven't seen The Sopranos you should probably start watching that instead of wasting time looking ignorant on the internet.

[Edited on September 14, 2010 at 3:04 AM. Reason : . ]

9/14/2010 2:57:53 AM

Easy guys don't turn this into a shit shat thread. I believe there are many facets to this show that one can appreciate. I watch the show to tune in on how a man such as Don evolves with the changing world around him. Plus his internal struggles of his past are integral to the story line and keeps him in this crestfallen state.

However, I too repeatedly tell myself that Don is a smooth motherfucker. And I thoroughly enjoy watching him get shit faced and pull ass. The jokes are funny but subtle and the characters are just fun to watch. The writing is just that good!

So if the only thing some people want to do is to read between the lines, and analyze the underlying theme of episodes, discuss symbolism etc. Do so, I for one appreciate the input. But don't shit on other people for enjoying something we also enjoy for different reasons.

9/14/2010 7:34:33 AM

^^ I don't think he was so much aiming for an ad hominem, but was rather not defending his point and illustrating he need not waste his time because you have a history of shitting on what people have to say. That was a new point, which he established quite well.

That being said, while I also enjoy seeing Don be the man and pull ass, which is not mutually exclusive to enjoying the subtleties of the series.

Quote :

"Dude said she walked around trying to get raped and compared her to the madame of a whore house. And then drew a pornographic picture of her and posted it where she could see it."

I think you're missing a few things here. Sure he said she was walking around like she wanted to get raped and compared her to a madame but he was just calling the situation as he saw it, which is rather true to form. Joan does dress with intent to draw the eyes of men around her and she is like the madame since she runs the secretaries. Think back to episode 1 when she was advising peggy to put out and let things slide. Another thing I think you're missing is the context of the time. The drawing didn't even seem to phase Don or the others. Realistically, people still make drawings like that of coworkers today, but they are only more discrete.

You were dead on, though, on what you said about the young girl. I watched the show again yesterday and think you're probably right, and this is cemented by what Don said regarding that he knows what type of girl she is...one just like Betty. Could anyone surmise the meaning of the look she gave Don after examining Betty as his ex-wife?

I still think some of what transpired in this episode is emblematic of breaking up of the old boys club. Peggy mentioned how the drawing was offensive to her and when Joan was blowing up Peggy she pointed out that no matter how much power they have all they need to do is draw a picture. Two women who were willing participants in this male dominated culture are tired of it and want it to change.

9/14/2010 8:39:44 AM

Quote :

"I don't think he was so much aiming for an ad hominem, but was rather not defending his point and illustrating he need not waste his time because you have a history of shitting on what people have to say. That was a new point, which he established quite well."

Right, because reading through my old posts going back several months really saved him a bunch of time. If you have something legitimate to say then I'm not going to attack you for it, but if you say something that so obviously misses the subtext of the show, in a show that's all about subtext since so little usually happens plot-wise in each episode, then it's fair game.

Quote :

"he was just calling the situation as he saw it, which is rather true to form. Joan does dress with intent to draw the eyes of men around her and she is like the madame since she runs the secretaries."

How is she supposed to dress? I guess she could wear a garbage bag that way her curves would be less obvious, but it's not like anything she wears in the office is low cut or as short as modern miniskirts. I thought that was more about him projecting his mother issues onto Joan.

9/14/2010 11:53:53 AM

Quote :

"Right, because reading through my old posts going back several months really saved him a bunch of time"

Saying things like this makes you come off as really dense. It was clear that the time he didn't want to waste was explaining himself, so instead he used that time to depict a point that even you could easily grasp.

Quote :

"If you have something legitimate to say then I'm not going to attack you for it, but if you say something that so obviously misses the subtext of the show"

Evidently you will attack without premise, because at that point the poster had not expressed they obviously missed the subtext for the show, but, rather, merely showed appreciation for a scene and then you went apeshit.

Quote :

"How is she supposed to dress?"

She could definitely dress much more conservatively.

9/14/2010 12:03:29 PM

don draper is my role model

9/14/2010 12:27:36 PM

Quote :

"I thought that was more about him projecting his mother issues onto Joan."

9/14/2010 12:39:48 PM

Quote :

"Saying things like this makes you come off as really dense. It was clear that the time he didn't want to waste was explaining himself, so instead he used that time to depict a point that even you could easily grasp."

Haha, so you're still defending the logical fallacy that took way more time to come up with than crafting some semblance of an intelligible response? Not to mention half the stuff he reposted wasn't even me attacking anyone, and another quarter of it was me talking shit to lafta.

Quote :

"She could definitely dress much more conservatively"

Like I said before is she supposed to wear a garbage bag? She's a very voluptuous woman so her curves are going to stick out of just about anything she wears, which for some reason gives people free reign to call her a whore.

Another thing I thought was interesting was Joey calling Harry a closeted homosexual, which was how I interpreted that interaction but a review I read wrote it off as Harry ham-fistedly trying to show off his showbiz connections.

9/14/2010 1:31:12 PM

Quote :

"ham-fistedly trying to show off his showbiz connections."

apparently something obvious to everyone but you.

9/14/2010 1:39:26 PM

I certainly thought that was part of it, but that interaction seemed like it went way beyond that with Harry telling him how handsome he is and surreptitiously getting a picture of him to show the casting people.

[Edited on September 14, 2010 at 1:50 PM. Reason : If you want to turn this into a pissing match, that's fine with me too]

9/14/2010 1:49:58 PM

I read some ep reviews this morning. There is always tons of stuff I didn't pick up on, and tons of stuff that resonated with me that nobody even mentions.

Like, the Harry thing: I read one review where the author was so happy Harry was making his way in the TV world and whatnot. And apparently there's another review out there putting Harry down for trying to show off.

I struggle so much with Betty. Her world is just so different than anything I've encountered--isn't she like from super old New England family on her mom's side? Pete is, too, but I get Pete...I love Pete!

Anyway, based on what Betty has said about her relationship with her mother/food and the way she's treated her daughter on that matter/the way her daughter looks...I think it's safe to assume that Betty is starving. She is hungry/chain-smoking all the time, and I think it contributes to her being a miserable bitch. And every tummy rumble probably reminds her of what a miserable bitch her mother was. I know dudes just wanna be like, "Yeah, Betty is so hot...blah, blah, blah." But we gotta be real...she's fucking hungry.

9/14/2010 2:08:47 PM

I fucking hate Betty regardless of how good she looks.

9/14/2010 2:16:21 PM

Betty is an insufferable bitch. You get episodes every now and again where she's tolerable (like the Rome episode) but they're few and far between.

9/14/2010 2:56:55 PM