Quote :

"Did Timothy McVeigh blow up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building or did he not? Are you certain?"

I'm 99.9% certain, sure.

Or maybe it was an alien look-alike sent down to Earth and then he possessed McVeigh. Also possible, obviously not likely.

[Edited on July 9, 2010 at 9:55 AM. Reason : .]

7/9/2010 9:54:16 AM

Even if he did, if you kill him you're only showing that you're just as much of a monster as he is.

7/9/2010 9:54:43 AM

knowing something beyond a reasonable doubt is different than knowing something with absolute certainty.

(but it's wrong to kill him regardless in my opinion)

[Edited on July 9, 2010 at 9:56 AM. Reason : .]

7/9/2010 9:55:36 AM

I think he should be drawn and quartered before being burned at the stake and having the fire put out with piss.

7/9/2010 10:48:55 AM

Quote :

"It means what it means. Who are you, and I'm saying that indignantly, who do you think you are that you have the right to deprive a man of his life? And furthermore, if we, as a society, feel that we have the right to use law as a tool to eliminate the undesirables of our society, what does that say about the progress of our civilization? "

I have already addressed this and you chose to ignore it. I believe that "we" as a community/government have the right to deprive a person of their live in terms of "self defence" of the community. Once you have violated someone else's rights to a certain extent, your rights no longer exist.

I think it's funny that you keep pointing out that you think we can never be 100% certain someone commited a crime... yet you are 100% certain that giving them life in prison somehow ensures that they will never do it again.
However, contrary to your assertion, you have provided evidence in this thread showing violence and murder within the prison system. You might also want to consider prison escape in your thought process.

Who gives you the right to give this murder life? thereby allowing them to take yet another life. You have essentially killed their 2nd victim. Congratulations murder. You are no better than the rest of us.

Personally I would be happy to live in a civilization that conisders murders as "undesirables".
If you value a civilization that desires murders, then that's your thing... whatever.

Since you enjoy posting charts so much - see if you can find one that compares how many people have been executed that "may not" have been guilty VS how many have been killed by those that should have been executed but were not.

It's a simple semantics arguement that makes your more of a murder than those of us supporting the death penalty.

7/9/2010 11:03:11 AM

Quote :

"I believe that "we" as a community/government have the right to deprive a person of their live in terms of "self defence" of the community."

but we have the option of imprisoning someone, there is even an option of solitary confinement. self defense is not the issue, what you want is revenge.

7/9/2010 11:10:17 AM

so no one has ever escaped from a prison and committed another crime - is that what you are saying?

Also I believe you are saying we have the ability to individually seperate every person in our prison system?

or are we back to "what if" again

7/9/2010 11:13:02 AM

can you post some supermax escape statistics?

Quote :

"Also I believe you are saying we have the ability to individually seperate every person in our prison system?"

supermax units all have solitary and isolation, and even in the general popluation the homicide rate is less than 5 per 100,000 inmates (which is lower than the homicide rate for raleigh)



[Edited on July 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM. Reason : .]

7/9/2010 11:16:28 AM

Quote :

"Since you enjoy posting charts so much - see if you can find one that compares how many people have been executed that "may not" have been guilty VS how many have been killed by those that should have been executed but were not."

If it's anything less than 100%, it's horrible. We should never have executed anyone who was innocent.

The sad truth is that it isn't.

7/9/2010 11:31:07 AM

Quote :

"If it's anything less than 100%, it's horrible. We should never have executed anyone who was innocent. "

Quote :

"the homicide rate is less than 5 per 100,000 inmates"

interesting... so you and god murder about 1 out of every 20,000 inmates there.

7/9/2010 11:35:29 AM

Quote :

"who do you think you are that you have the right to deprive a man of his life?"

Someone who believes in justice.

Quote :

"if we, as a society, feel that we have the right to use law as a tool to eliminate the undesirables of our society, what does that say about the progress of our civilization?"

We still don't like murderers.

7/9/2010 11:36:28 AM

Great.

So far, no one has disputed the following facts:

Life imprisonment is cheaper than the death penalty.

People have been wrongly executed who have been sentenced to the death penalty.

Prison is a harsh place, so it's not like life imprisonment is somehow "easier" for the criminal than the death penalty.

So why in the world would you want to keep the death penalty? Just to satisfy some petty vengeance?

7/9/2010 11:39:10 AM

Oppose, but priority-wise it's not something I get super worked up about compared to some people. Call it somewhat tacit opposition.

7/9/2010 11:41:58 AM

Quote :

"interesting... so you and god murder about 1 out of every 20,000 inmates there."

people in general population are generally not there because of a capital crime. (although that does highlight reforms we need to make to reduce our prison population).

i said we should put murderers in supermax with isolation. (and then asked you to post statistics because you were making a contrary point, which you did not do)

[Edited on July 9, 2010 at 11:47 AM. Reason : .]

7/9/2010 11:46:04 AM

Quote :

"People have been wrongly executed who have been sentenced to the death penalty. "

modern methods pretty much eliminate this problem...and I do think the death penalty should not be an option when the main evidence is eye witness accounts

Quote :

"Prison is a harsh place, so it's not like life imprisonment is somehow "easier" for the criminal than the death penalty."

so why do inmates fight so hard to be removed from death row, or plea bargain to have the dp taken off the table in their trial?

Quote :

"So why in the world would you want to keep the death penalty? Just to satisfy some petty vengeance?"

Call it what you will, but if you plan and execute the murder of another person, you deserve to have your death planned and executed in a similar manner

[Edited on July 9, 2010 at 11:59 AM. Reason : v grand rebuttal...when in doubt, post a catchy pic]

7/9/2010 11:53:16 AM

Quote :

"modern methods pretty much eliminate this problem"

7/9/2010 11:55:52 AM

Quote :

"Life imprisonment is cheaper than the death penalty."

And why is that? Endless appeals, a court system that doesn't believe in a quick and speedy trial at any stage, and methods that are about 10182091920% more expensive than a 50 cent bullet out back or a length of rope.

7/9/2010 12:02:36 PM

Quote :

"Even if he did, if you kill him you're only showing that you're just as much of a monster as he is."

just when i think you are trying to have serious conversation, you type this little gem.

7/9/2010 12:05:02 PM

Quote :

"Prison is a harsh place, so it's not like life imprisonment is somehow "easier" for the criminal than the death penalty. "

also, for the most heinous of offenders, life in prison is far different than the episodes of 'lockup' you have watched. they are not in general population getting fucked in the ass. they are segregated.

7/9/2010 12:06:19 PM

if you're getting pleasure at the thought of someone dying, that makes you a monster in my book

[Edited on July 9, 2010 at 12:07 PM. Reason : .]

7/9/2010 12:07:31 PM

so i guess i am a monster because it makes me happy to remove evil fucks like McVeigh from the gene pool.

so be it.

7/9/2010 12:10:13 PM

Quote :

"it makes me happy to remove evil fucks like McVeigh from the gene pool."

also known as revenge

7/9/2010 12:14:15 PM

Well at least you're not hiding it anymore.

7/9/2010 12:14:30 PM

if you see nothing morally wrong with this i don't understand why everyone has been so careful to not admit they want revenge

7/9/2010 12:17:25 PM

Quote :

"Call it what you will, but if you plan and execute the murder of another person, you deserve to have your death planned and executed in a similar manner"

personally, I don't care what label you want to put on it

7/9/2010 12:20:43 PM

there is certainly an element of revenge involved. i think that is human nature. there is also an element of revenge involved if it makes you happy to see someone rot in prison the rest of their lives.

eye for eye and all of that.

7/9/2010 12:21:44 PM

Quote :

"if you're getting pleasure at the thought of someone dying, that makes you a monster in my book"

Call it whatever you want, but if that's the case, I'm a good monster. There are plenty of people whom I'd get pleasure out of killing or seeing die. There are even people whom I'd like to kill barehanded and feel them expire in my grip. It's precisely because of the fact that they are monsters, and killing them would result in the satisfaction of making the world a better place for everyone by destroying someone bent on fucking it all up. That, and I while I don't know that it's a legitimate reason to kill someone, I have no problem with feeling satisfaction from vengeance when the person clearly deserved to die.

[Edited on July 9, 2010 at 12:25 PM. Reason : ]

7/9/2010 12:23:56 PM

We all experience vengeful feelings. That's normal. But I don't think we should be designing our justice system to satisfy those feelings.

[Edited on July 9, 2010 at 12:26 PM. Reason : ^ Well some of that shit isn't normal.]

7/9/2010 12:25:23 PM

Quote :

"We all experience vengeful feelings. That's normal. But I don't think we should be designing our justice system to satisfy those feelings."

I agree and our system is not designed to satisfy those feelings. if it were, family and friends of the victims would issue punishment, not a jury of your peers.

7/9/2010 12:27:22 PM

^^I'm not talking about our justice system.

I'm talking about me killing people who suck, either hypothetically, or in a situation that called for it (combat, self-defense, defense of someone else, etc).

I thought we'd digressed and were talking about personal thoughts on killing. legal institutions are another matter.

[Edited on July 9, 2010 at 12:29 PM. Reason : ]

7/9/2010 12:27:47 PM

Quote :

"there is certainly an element of revenge involved. i think that is human nature. there is also an element of revenge involved if it makes you happy to see someone rot in prison the rest of their lives. eye for eye and all of that."

an eye for an eye is a terrible plan, i get no pleasure or happiness thinking about someone in prison. it is simply their punishment, removing them from society. by extension you would be saying that parents get pleasure or happiness out of punishing or spanking their children.

7/9/2010 12:32:04 PM

^^ Man am I glad you get put in charge of weapons of mass destruction

(Hint: I'm not)


^They do, actually. Spanking is a reactionary punishment by parents who have lost their cool

[Edited on July 9, 2010 at 12:34 PM. Reason : ]

7/9/2010 12:33:09 PM

Quote :

"if it were, family and friends of the victims would issue punishment, not a jury of your peers."

Right but I just fail to see how the death penalty is anything other than revenge. I just think we've evolved to the point where the state doesn't have to kill people to teach others a lesson.

[Edited on July 9, 2010 at 12:34 PM. Reason : poor wording]

7/9/2010 12:34:10 PM

Quote :

"I just think we've evolved to the point where the state doesn't have to kill people to teach others a lesson. "

we havent.

7/9/2010 12:36:44 PM

it's exactly only revenge, that's the problem.

if the death penalty is here to say i think juries should be required to witness the execution if that is what the recommend in sentencing

7/9/2010 12:36:53 PM

Quote :

"the state doesn't have to kill people to teach them a lesson."

Teach who a lesson? I think that's the point we're getting at here.

Multiple studies have shown that the death penalty doesn't reduce crime at all. People are going to keep killing.

It doesn't teach the person a lesson, because obvious how can they utilize that learned lesson when they're dead?

So we've established that all it does is satisfy your hunger for vengeance.

7/9/2010 12:38:12 PM

Quote :

"an eye for an eye is a terrible plan, i get no pleasure or happiness thinking about someone in prison. it is simply their punishment, removing them from society. by extension you would be saying that parents get pleasure or happiness out of punishing or spanking their children."

so if someone raped and murdered your mom, it would not make you happy to know that they were in prison and off the streets? are you seriously comparing the disciplining of a child to that of an adult?

come on. be honest with yourself. its ok to be happy when someone, who has committed crime, is made accountable.

7/9/2010 12:38:44 PM

Sure, they'd get the maximum prison time. I'd be satisfied with that.

7/9/2010 12:41:56 PM

of course i would be angry, it's called rage, but thats not the metric we should use to develop our punishments

7/9/2010 12:43:18 PM

Quote :

"can you post some supermax escape statistics?"

I didn't realize all of the offenders were currently in supermax facilities.

To do so might change this arguement..

Quote :

"Life imprisonment is cheaper than the death penalty. "

why don't you post some cost statistics of housing a larger portion of prisoners in supermax facilities - and include the negative effects and claims of cruel and unusual punishment that some claim go with those types of facilities.

but then you would have to lump yourself in with this group...

Quote :

"if you're getting pleasure at the thought of someone dying being punished in a cruel and unusual manor, that makes you a monster in my book "

The moral high road you guys are riding on may not be that high after all.

7/9/2010 12:43:41 PM

Quote :

"People are going to keep killing. "

interesting i believe this has been pointed out already

Quote :

"So we've established that all it does is satisfy your hunger for vengeance."

wait didn't we just agree that people were going to keep killing... what about the part where even 1 life is 1 life to many? - you don't care about the certainly innocent? just the potentially innocent lives? Won't the death penalty save lives according to your arguement that people are going to keep killing?

7/9/2010 12:50:49 PM

Quote :

"why don't you post some cost statistics of housing a larger portion of prisoners in supermax facilities - and include the negative effects and claims of cruel and unusual punishment that some claim go with those types of facilities."

done:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

Quote :

"The additional cost of confining an inmate to death row, as compared to the maximum security prisons where those sentenced to life without possibility of parole ordinarily serve their sentences, is $90,000 per year per inmate. With California’s current death row population of 670, that accounts for $63.3 million annually.”"

Quote :

" Quote : "can you post some supermax escape statistics?" I didn't realize all of the offenders were currently in supermax facilities. To do so might change this arguement.. Quote : "Life imprisonment is cheaper than the death penalty. " why don't you post some cost statistics of housing a larger portion of prisoners in supermax facilities - and include the negative effects and claims of cruel and unusual punishment that some claim go with those types of facilities. but then you would have to lump yourself in with this group... Quote : "if you're getting pleasure at the thought of someone dying being punished in a cruel and unusual manor, that makes you a monster in my book " The moral high road you guys are riding on may not be that high after all."

i'm not ok with cruel and unusual punishment

how much longer will you continue to pull claims out of your ass?

7/9/2010 12:52:34 PM

Quote :

"Won't the death penalty save lives according to your arguement that people are going to keep killing?"

objection, asked and answered

please move on

[Edited on July 9, 2010 at 12:54 PM. Reason : i mean really, lets try to keep up here]

7/9/2010 12:53:23 PM

Support, and they need to start executing.

7/9/2010 12:53:34 PM

The threat from prison escapees is quite possibly the worst argument in favor of the death penalty.

7/9/2010 12:56:36 PM

^i thought 1 life is one to many - are you saying it's not now?

7/9/2010 1:16:49 PM

Quote :

"The additional cost of confining an inmate to death row, as compared to the maximum security prisons where those sentenced to life without possibility of parole ordinarily serve their sentences, is $90,000 per year per inmate. With California’s current death row population of 670, that accounts for $63.3 million annually.”""

Max and Supermax are not the same...
I'd hardly call it pulling out of my ass when you can google the phrase "supermax cruel and unusual punishment" and come up with tons of articles.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-76134286.html

Quote :

"An estimated 20,000 Americans, many of them mentally ill, are currently held in at least fifty-seven "supermax" facilities throughout the nation. Assignment to a supermax unit (sometimes called a Secured Housing Unit, or SHU) depends not on an inmate's original crime but on whether he has been deemed incorrigible by the administrators of his state prison. There is no federal oversight of this process, and the Department of Justice, which issued its first in-depth survey of supermaxes in 1999, maintains no records of how many prisoners are sent where. A supermax prisoner spends … "

maybe you could get your facts straight

7/9/2010 1:25:00 PM

I'm saying that using something that happens .0000001% of the time as the basis of your argument in favor of putting people to death is retarded.

7/9/2010 1:26:54 PM

so you are saying God is retarded - gotcha

7/9/2010 1:33:12 PM

Quote :

" Max and Supermax are not the same... I'd hardly call it pulling out of my ass when you can google the phrase "supermax cruel and unusual punishment" and come up with tons of articles."

if you follow the source in the link you'll see that they are talking about exactly what i am, isolated and solitary confinement (i guess that is called max sexurity)

[Edited on July 9, 2010 at 1:44 PM. Reason : .]

7/9/2010 1:43:30 PM