Stupid people deserve to be duped into over-tipping.

5/11/2012 10:37:55 AM

That's more like it!

5/11/2012 10:38:46 AM

From someone working at an actual restaurant...I never expected tips on carry outs and would only get a little disappointed if there wasn't one left on a really big order that was a pain in the ass.

I can promise you that a majority of the cashiers at Moe's aren't expecting tips on your extra value homewrecker with queso poured inside.

5/11/2012 10:39:51 AM

Great, we've already distinguished the expectation between the employees and the perceived expectation by the patrons. Two different things and no one is saying that all employees are expecting tips.

FWIW, I really don't go to Moe's and I have no clue what this homewrecker is or if it's some type of attempt at an personal attack, but the line is getting old.

[Edited on May 11, 2012 at 10:41 AM. Reason : .]

5/11/2012 10:40:53 AM

Quote :

"I'm talking about patrons in general, so I don't know why you're attacking me. Yes, I can generally determine who is working on a server's wage and who is not. However, the stupid general public cannot or does not, for some reason. We can call the general public stupid and call them out for not putting some thought into it; however, that doesn't change things. People see it as an expectation."

Haha nice try. I wasn't talking about meeeee, I was talking about all the dumb people in the general population. I know what's up. Come one dude, you've been calling it an expectation (since that's the basis of your asinine argument) for two pages now. Once you realize it's seen as an option and not an expectation my anyone who cares to think about it, you come up with this I was talking about dumb people not me shit.

5/11/2012 10:42:09 AM

Uh, I've been saying people/patrons the whole time, so yeh...

5/11/2012 10:42:46 AM

When I worked at Subway, we actually had several people ask if we had a tip jar. The owners were against it. I know I wouldn't tip someone for making a sandwich. It was an expectation of my job, just like everyone working the line at Moe's.

5/11/2012 10:42:50 AM

Quote :

"and no one is saying that all employees are expecting tips."

Oh...just "all" employees now...

Quote :

"Fuck places that ask for tips that don't provide waiting services. Fuck you. I'm looking at you, Chinese take-out, Cold Stone, Moes, etc. Tips are for providing reward to those who have fully serviced you throughout an entire meal and done so beyond and above the call of duty. Not for some high school schmuck in the taco assembly line who just throws disproportionate amounts of fillings into a shell and then slings it up on the counter. What the fuck have you done? Not a damn thing but plate my food. I don't tip the chef at Ruth's for plating my food, now why the fuck are you special? You want a tip? Then don't have me stand there to wait for you to make my meal, don't have me carry my meal, don't have me fill or refill my own drink, come by to check on me at the table, etc. Fucks asking for tips without providing tip worthy services. Fuck you. I'm even talking to you, pizza delivery boy. Why in the hell am I tipping you, other than that you get paid jack shit and society demands that I make it up to you. Fuck that. You just brought me food, good for fucking you. I don't tip the food runner at McDonald's, why the fuck are you getting tips? Tell the bossman to pay you, not me. You're not sitting around while I eat, refilling my plate, getting me more soda. Tips aren't required anywhere. Tips are for showing appreciation to a server for going above and beyond, not their base income. You expect a tip from me? Then fucking earn it."

5/11/2012 10:43:15 AM

I fail to see where I indicated that all employees were expecting tips.

5/11/2012 10:44:03 AM

It's a context thing. If I'm ordering for myself but ordered a lot of food and had 5-6 different containers that were used to get the food together (I'm including the little cups of dressing and stuff..I'm not a glutton), then I'll tip a dollar or two..maybe 10% if I'm feeling generous. Usually for what I order, 1-2 dollars is easily ten percent.

I tip at Moes if I order to go and it's for myself and the wife. If I'm eating in, I don't tip.

I tip at Cold Stone if I want to hear them sing. I don't want to hear them sing. I don't tip.

If I ordered something that can come in one container and is generally accepted as a take out business, I don't tip.

5/11/2012 10:44:20 AM

Quote :

"I tip at Cold Stone if I want to hear them sing. I don't want to hear them sing. I don't tip."

I tip them and politely ask them not to sing.

5/11/2012 10:45:56 AM

Quote :

"Uh, I've been saying people/patrons the whole time, so yeh..."

Ha really? You're gonna play this game? You've obviously said that you see it as an expectation to tip there as well. Not just dumb people.

Quote :

"If they have a tip jar or provide a tip line on a receipt, then they're at least sending the message that they expect tips. "

Quote :

"I said it send the message that tipping is expected."

Quote :

"I think it's a poor management decision to send the message that tips are expected, even if the employees don't expect tips, sending the message is a different story"

Quote :

"I have a problem with the expectation, or sending the message of an expectation, for workers who aren't doing much to really earn a tip and who already earn a full wage, unlike real servers."

Which is what makes this so weak:

Quote :

"I'm talking about patrons in general, so I don't know why you're attacking me. Yes, I can generally determine who is working on a server's wage and who is not. However, the stupid general public cannot or does not, for some reason. We can call the general public stupid and call them out for not putting some thought into it; however, that doesn't change things. People see it as an expectation"

You don't have to play these games dude. You can just admit you were wrong.

5/11/2012 10:49:19 AM

Saying it sends the message as an expectation != me truly believing it is an expectation.

I merely identified it as sending the message.


[Edited on May 11, 2012 at 10:53 AM. Reason : /]

5/11/2012 10:52:02 AM

So just to be clear here. You're smart, and capable of logical thought, so you don't see it as an expectation. But you think stupid people who aren't capable of such thought see it as an expectation. Is that the gist of it?

5/11/2012 10:54:34 AM

I'm saying that I identify it as sending the message of an expectation to tip. Do I really think it's expected? In most cases, no.

You're missing what I'm saying. I said it sends the message of an expectation. I didn't say it was expected by the employees; I'm saying it sends the message. Many patrons see it as an expectation. When I see it, to me it sends the message; however, I recognize that it may truly not be expected, but that doesn't mean the message wasn't sent.

[Edited on May 11, 2012 at 10:59 AM. Reason : .]

5/11/2012 10:56:04 AM

they really put ya in a pickle at the take out places if you order and wait. Order food...pay...wait for food.

The tip line on those might as well have a check box below it that has "spit in food" as an alternative to leaving a tip.

5/11/2012 10:56:26 AM

i love tipping threads

5/11/2012 10:56:56 AM

Quote :

"I'm saying that I identify it as sending the message of an expectation to tip. Do I really think it's expected? In most cases, no."

Ok so now it's them "sending the message of an expectation of a tip" is not the same thing as them actually expecting a tip. K. Gotcha.

^^ true.

5/11/2012 10:58:20 AM

How many times have I said that already?

5/11/2012 10:59:48 AM

Tell us how it's different.

5/11/2012 11:00:43 AM

Uh, the intent of management and the perception of patrons are two different things.

Management may intend it as an option, as you said; or they may even expect it.

Patrons may perceive it as an option, or they may even perceive it as expected, per the whole reason why this question is asked quite often.

And the opposite is true. When a place doesn't provide a tip jar or tip line, the patrons perceive it as tipping is not expected or maybe even acceptable by management.

The last place I went to get a hair cut had no tip line, no tip jar, nothing about tips. The first time I went there, I didn't tip because I didn't even think about it until later (nothing there indicated tipping). However, knowing that such places often ask for tips, I figured I was "supposed" to tip. So the next time I asked about it and they said, yes they accept tips, but do not advertise it.

[Edited on May 11, 2012 at 11:04 AM. Reason : .]

5/11/2012 11:02:09 AM

how do they even split those tips?

5/11/2012 11:03:20 AM

Quote :

"Uh, the intent of management and the perception of patrons are two different things."

What? The patrons aren't involved here.

Quote :

"Ok so now it's them "sending the message of an expectation of a tip" is not the same thing as them actually expecting a tip. K. Gotcha."

The difference between those two things.

Quote :

"Patrons may perceive it as an option, or they may even perceive it as expected"

If patrons view it as an expectation, they're fucking stupid. Outside of outliers like your chinese restaurant, it's merely an option.

Quote :

"The last place I went to get a hair cut had no tip line, no tip jar, nothing about tips. The first time I went there, I didn't tip because I didn't even think about it until later (nothing there indicated tipping). However, knowing that such places often ask for tips"

The don't ask for them. It's an option.

5/11/2012 11:03:55 AM

^I've been saying the same thing for a while now. I don't know why you're trying to change my argument. I said that the intent is different than the perception, that is part of my argument and I have stated it multiple times.

And the patrons are very much a part of this... I don't get how you can ignore that part of the equation.

Quote :

"If patrons view it as an expectation, they're fucking stupid. Outside of outliers like your chinese restaurant, it's merely an option."

Great. But people are asking this question often enough. And it's what we're talking about so...

[Edited on May 11, 2012 at 11:07 AM. Reason : .]

5/11/2012 11:06:06 AM

Quote :

"I said that the intent is different than the perception, that is part of my argument and I have stated it multiple times."

Hahah this is getting hilarious.

I was the first one to make that point back when you were acting like it was always an expectation. I was saying that you may perceive it that way, but it's rarely the intent.
message_editpost.aspx?edit=15384412

Quote :

"And the patrons are very much a part of this... I don't get how you can ignore that part of the equation."

Dude let me break it down for you.

You:

Quote :

"I'm saying that I identify it as sending the message of an expectation to tip. Do I really think it's expected? In most cases, no"

Me:

Quote :

"Ok so now it's them "sending the message of an expectation of a tip" is not the same thing as them actually expecting a tip. K. Gotcha."

You:

Quote :

"How many times have I said that already?"

Me:

Quote :

"Tell us how it's different."

Notice the lack of any mention of patrons on this point.


[Edited on May 11, 2012 at 11:12 AM. Reason : ]

5/11/2012 11:08:10 AM

Quote :

"how do they even split those tips?"

5/11/2012 11:09:47 AM

^^ok, so I don't include the words patrons in every post because I figure you can follow context. my apologies. And "on this point"... uh it's the same point I've been making, including posts explicitly stating patrons. Follow the context of the argument.

And as far as intention vs preception, I may have not used those words exactly in every post, but I clearly indicated this comparison a long time ago. in fact, right under your post!

http://thewolfweb.com/message_editpost.aspx?edit=15384354

Besides, who the fuck do you think we're talking about when mentioning sending a message? A message to whom? The patrons. Which implies their perception.

If you're just going to cherry pick parts of the argument and twist my words, then I'm done here. I've clearly said that the manager's intent is different from patron's perception. I've clearly been referencing patrons. So, keep cherry picking and posting personal attacks. It's all you really have.



[Edited on May 11, 2012 at 11:18 AM. Reason : .]

[Edited on May 11, 2012 at 11:20 AM. Reason : .]

5/11/2012 11:12:46 AM

i bet the manager/owner pockets all of it...its all just a ruse

5/11/2012 11:13:30 AM

Quote :

"patrons"

5/11/2012 11:18:58 AM

Quote :

"So, keep cherry picking and posting personal attacks. It's all you really have."

Personal attacks. Oh please, post where I did that. Happy reading.

Quote :

"And "on this point"... uh it's the same point I've been making, including posts explicitly stating patrons. Follow the context of the argument."

Wow

You:

Quote :

"I'm saying that I identify it as sending the message of an expectation to tip. Do I really think it's expected? In most cases, no"

Me:

Quote :

"Ok so now it's them "sending the message of an expectation of a tip" is not the same thing as them actually expecting a tip. K. Gotcha."

You:

Quote :

"How many times have I said that already?"

Me:

Quote :

"Tell us how it's different."

It's A vs B, what's the difference.

Where:

A = the restuarant sending message of an expectation of a tip
B = the restaurant actually expecting a tip

no patrons involved. it's not that complicated man.

whats the difference between those two things. i'm genuinely curious.

5/11/2012 11:22:30 AM

The patrons are involved. By whom is the message being perceived? Patrons perceive a tip jar/line as an expectation to tip, thus the message is being sent. You can't divorce the patrons from the message, as their perception is the message.

I don't know how to make it more clear. The intent is one thing. The message being sent/the perception of patrons is something different. You can't separate the message and perception.

You're reading this incorrectly. You're talking about a manager intentionally sending a message to patrons. I'm talking about the message perceived by the patrons. Two different things. What message the manager wants to send doesn't matter here. What matter is the message being perceived by patrons.

[Edited on May 11, 2012 at 11:28 AM. Reason : .]

5/11/2012 11:26:00 AM

Quote :

"Patrons stupidly perceive a tip jar/line as an expectation to tip, thus the when no message is being sent."

ftfy


is this site yours?

http://www.tiredoftipping.com/

[Edited on May 11, 2012 at 11:28 AM. Reason : ]

5/11/2012 11:27:28 AM

Don't you two have something better to be doing?

5/11/2012 11:28:51 AM

Uh, the patrons perceive it as a message to tip... just google this shit man. People are all the time asking if they're supposed to tip at xyz.

5/11/2012 11:29:12 AM

^^Hey that can wait buddy.

I'm proving someone wrong on the internet.

5/11/2012 11:29:31 AM

^^^I'm just bored today.

Quote :

"Where: A = the restuarant sending message of an expectation of a tip B = the restaurant actually expecting a tip"

You're moving the goal posts. This is not what I have been arguing.

A = the message from the establishment as perceived by patrons
B = the establishment actually expecting a tip


Call the general public what you will; however, the perception is that tipping is required, sometimes with a tip jar/line, sometimes without, but the message being perceived is the same: "I'm supposed to tip", thus why people often ask if they're supposed to, because they have been conditioned to believe they're always supposed to tip, but want to find out if that's actually true or not: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8&ion=1#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=am%20I%20supposed%20to%20tip%20at&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=356e729b7a15c7f0&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1680&bih=965

[Edited on May 11, 2012 at 11:38 AM. Reason : .]

5/11/2012 11:29:56 AM

Quote :

"You're moving the goal posts"

Nope, you are.

Quote :

"If they have a tip jar or provide a tip line on a receipt, then they're at least sending the message that they expect tips. "

Quote :

"I said it send the message that tipping is expected."

Quote :

"I think it's a poor management decision to send the message that tips are expected, even if the employees don't expect tips, sending the message is a different story"

Quote :

"I have a problem with the expectation, or sending the message of an expectation, for workers who aren't doing much to really earn a tip and who already earn a full wage, unlike real servers."

There's like 10+ more where those come from...

And now you're qualifying all those "sending the message' statements that with:

Quote :

"as perceived by patrons"

who earlier you said called stupid

Quote :

"Yes, I can generally determine who is working on a server's wage and who is not. However, the stupid general public cannot or does not, for some reason"

So you're defending stupid people's incorrect perceptions. Cool.

5/11/2012 11:44:01 AM

haha, no no and no.

what do you think sending the message implies? it has to be perceived by somebody. what gives the message meaning? the perception by the patrons does.

What message the establishment is intending to send is different than what is being perceived and I have obviously been talking about that for a few pages now. I can't help it that you can't figure out this difference or the context.

You're still cherry picking/taking out of context/misreading my posts. This entire argument has been about the message as perceived by patrons. To argue what message was intended is stupid. I'm not changing my argument one bit. Because you couldn't figure out that the perception is what I was talking about, I am now having to explicitly restate everything so you can follow the argument and hopefully figure out the context. I'm pretty sure I already said that the message intended by the establishment is different than what is perceived. Probably not in those exact words, but it was said and/or implied.

If you think that people aren't perceiving these as messages to tip, then you are wrong. If you think people haven't been conditioned into thinking that they must always tip, then you are wrong. Google it. Why are people always asking if they're supposed to tip??

Quote :

"Uh, who said the cashier does that? It's obviously a management decision. And it doesn't mean that they think tipping is required; I said it send the message that tipping is expected. Two different things."

What do we have here? My first or second post on this part of the argument. Now, what do I establish? I establish that what the employees think (or the message they intend to send; it's all on the same side of the boat) is different than the message having a tip line/jar sends (which is how the tip line/jar is perceived by.... patrons).

[Edited on May 11, 2012 at 11:58 AM. Reason : .]

5/11/2012 11:46:24 AM

Quote :

"i bet the manager/owner pockets all of it...its all just a ruse "

I knew a place like this in New York. Owner was a complete dick. One day the entire staff decided to quit on the same day to "stick it to him." He hired a while new staff by the end of the week :/

5/11/2012 12:27:14 PM

Quote :

"they really put ya in a pickle at the take out places if you order and wait. Order food...pay...wait for food. The tip line on those might as well have a check box below it that has "spit in food" as an alternative to leaving a tip."

This. That's a good way to scare a person into tipping for carry out, or to put it in kinder terms, "a good tip is an invitation to a carefully prepared meal".

Quote :

"people with tip jobs make so much more money than they should make anyway because of over tipping then they complain when a poor tip ruins their 500 dollar night. "

500 dollar night? What the fuck kind of places does this happen regularly? If you can pull a $500 night twice a week then you have a server who's pulling in over $50k/year working part time.

[Edited on May 11, 2012 at 12:39 PM. Reason : math]

5/11/2012 12:38:24 PM

God damn. Are you people really arguing over tipping at Moes?? IT'S A MEXICAN SUBWAY! Do you tip at Subway? If not, why tip at Moes? Because it is slightly nicer inside.

And I love tipping threads, because jbrick83 shows us all how much of an indignant self-entitled douche he really is. Get over yourself.

5/11/2012 12:51:53 PM

^ Huzzah! That's what I was waiting for.

I always get you two pricks confused (you and wd40 that is).

5/11/2012 12:55:03 PM

I like to pay for services I don't receive.

5/11/2012 1:15:20 PM

^^^lol. pretty sure it was clear that this applied well beyond just Moe's.

5/11/2012 1:30:13 PM

Bump

Tip yer friendly bartenders and waitresses kindly this evening!

5/11/2012 7:37:25 PM

You're really teaching them a lesson by being a cheap asshole.

5/11/2012 7:53:56 PM

i might tip at Moe's if when i opened the door to their restaurant, they'd shut the fuck up

5/11/2012 7:58:19 PM

Quote :

"500 dollar night? What the fuck kind of places does this happen regularly? If you can pull a $500 night twice a week then you have a server who's pulling in over $50k/year working part time."

um busy places? maybe not like monday-thursday unless it's something special, but it's not uncommon for my gf to make $2-300 a night on the weekends at a little bar in cary. i'm guessing crowded downtown bartenders make more.

5/11/2012 8:43:49 PM

^Keyword: girlfriend

For every $1 in tips a dude makes, a girl makes $3.

5/11/2012 8:59:36 PM

^youve clearly never worked for tips

Not saying that's a bad thing. Just don't pretend to know what you're talking about there.

5/12/2012 12:12:07 AM