Quote :

" Olive oil and avocado oil are also good fats to use in salads and to drizzle over food, but not for cooking."

Why is it bad to cook with these oils?

Also how does this diet feel about sesame oil?

I'm also curious why quinoa and amaranth don't make that guy's list of seeds and nuts.

1/3/2011 4:32:25 PM

are all of the paleo followers insufferable proselytizing dickbags like vegans tend to be, or just the OP?

1/3/2011 4:48:48 PM

just the op

1/3/2011 4:52:07 PM

I missed the part where I was proselytizing. People asked me to make the thread and I did. Outside of responding to nonstop trolling, all I've done is answer questions.

^^^http://www.marksdailyapple.com/healthy-oils/

tl;dr: check the smoke point of each oil. also, oils high in PUFAs are highly oxidizable (light/heat makes them go bad; most olive oil consumed is probably rancid). saturated fat on the other hand is not very oxidizable. the sesame oil I have even says on the bottle only to use "off the heat"

[Edited on January 3, 2011 at 5:05 PM. Reason : asdf]

1/3/2011 4:54:23 PM

Quote :

"also, oils high in PUFAs are highly oxidizable (light/heat makes them go bad; most olive oil consumed is probably rancid). "

Ummm, hello, this is inexcusable of you to mix things up so badly! Olive oil is mostly MONO-unsaturated fat, not POLY-unsaturated fat (PUFA) like sunflower oil, corn oil, soybean oil, etc. PUFAs are pretty bad for you, at least in the concentrations the modern diet contains. They cause inflammation in the body and are responsible for many ills. Mono-unsaturated fats don't get oxidized so quickly, in fact, pretty much not at all.

No, olive oil is not rancid. Buy one that comes in a dark bottle, check that it was made recently, and keep it in the fridge. And make sure it is cold-pressed extra-virgin.

You can tell if an oil has gone rancid or not... just smell it. (but you have to know what rancid oil/fat smells like)

Corn oil is killing this nation. And don't get me started on partially hydrogenated corn/soybean/sunflower oils found in most snack foods and in many margarines.

Quote :

"Why is it bad to cook with these oils?"

Avocado oil actually has a pretty high smoke point, so yes, you can use it for cooking. But, it has a nice earthy flavor to it, that is best savored when you can actually see/taste the oil (drizzled over salads and other foods). Olive oil's smoke point is lower than that of avocado oil's, so only use it for light sauteeing, or in liquidy stews (because the temp won't go over 100 Celsius).

1/3/2011 5:25:47 PM

Quote :

"Ummm, hello, this is inexcusable of you to mix things up so badly!"

Ah, yes you're right. I thought it was mostly MUFA but still high in PUFA... (it's not). I'm not sure why that one guy advises against cooking with olive oil. According to the link I just posted, it loses flavor with heat. I have no idea.

I stand by what I said about PUFAs being highly oxidizable. Even with something like fish oil, you take precautions to keep it from going rancid (dark bottle, recommended to be kept in fridge/freezer).

I hope there is no disagreement on corn oil.

1/3/2011 5:32:09 PM

Quote :

"No, olive oil is not rancid. Buy one that comes in a dark bottle, check that it was made recently, and keep it in the fridge. And make sure it is cold-pressed extra-virgin."

My mom put a bottle of my olive oil in the fridge and it messed it up. I don't remember the specifics, but it seems like it froze or something and when it unfroze it was all nasty looking. I just keep it in a dark cabinet.

[Edited on January 3, 2011 at 8:09 PM. Reason : l]

1/3/2011 8:09:00 PM

Im gonna give this a shot....thanks for all the useful links and tips

1/3/2011 8:18:43 PM

Where can I find some brontosaurus meat?

1/3/2011 9:09:26 PM

^ The plains of North Dakota and Wyoming.

^^^ I keep my olive oil in the fridge, and yes, depending on the temperature of the fridge (which also changes depending on the number of items in the fridge), sometimes it does freeze, not to a solid though (because a fridge ain't that cold), but to a cloudy green mush. Almost looks like flavored frozen crushed ice. Melts to the liquid state within a minute or two of pouring out onto cold food. Liquifies instantly if poured onto hot food or into a pot/pan on heat.

That does not damage or destroy it. If anything, keeping any fat/oil cold prolongs its life, even if you freeze it solid in the freezer.

And if it can still flow, there is no problem. If your fridge is so cold that it freezes solid, then your fridge is too cold. Keep it in the door, the least cold part. My avocado oil does freeze in the same fridge, so I guess it has a higher freezing point than that of olive oil.

But yes, a dark cabinet is fine.

A dark cabinet is not fine for any PUFA such as corn/soya/sunflower/safflower/cottonseed oil. The best place for them is fridge rubbish bin. (because they go bad quickly, and because they are bad for you in the first place.)

Quote :

"I hope there is no disagreement on corn oil."

Of course dude... as I said:

Quote :

"Corn (EDIT: and soya/sunflower/safflower/cottonseed) oil is killing this nation. And don't get me started on partially hydrogenated corn/soybean/sunflower oils found in most snack foods and in many margarines."

[Edited on January 4, 2011 at 8:58 AM. Reason : ]

1/4/2011 8:53:11 AM

bump

8/18/2011 7:34:59 PM

I have been following a Paleo type diet for around 6 months now and never felt better. I still have certain dairy products and usually have a cheat meal or two each weekend but other than that I have virtually no grains. After eating this way for this long I don't see myself ever going back to eating grains on a regular basis, I just don't see the nutritional value and now that I am used to not having them I don't miss them. If you have your doubts or are interested in the diet I highly recommend you do a strict 30 day paleo challenge, it definitely changed my life for the better.

8/18/2011 8:38:08 PM

^woot

My head has been spinning from watching videos from the recent Ancestral Health Symposium. I can recommend some good ones:
http://vimeo.com/ancestralhealthsymposium/videos

From the sounds of it, it was pretty much every figurehead from the paleo community/blogosphere in one place. I would have killed to see that shit. There was even some obesity hypothesis drama:
http://youtu.be/4hzoFgwFeMQ?t=3m26s

Since Robb Wolf is like my hero, here is an AMA he did recently which should explain of a lot of questions for ya'll:
http://youtu.be/-PpuIKTg6QE

8/18/2011 8:41:37 PM

Still doing Paleo + Intermittent Fasting FTW


Occasionally dairy though (as it doesn't bother me) and cheat here or there on the weekends

8/18/2011 8:47:52 PM

What is your IF schedule like? That is one of those things I have always thought about doing but never tried it out.

8/18/2011 9:19:19 PM

oh god, I just got home from the bar where we had long conversations about Paleo and here is a thread sitting at the top of the lounge.

I've actually been somewhat following the diet for a couple of weeks now (can't give up beer or whey protein milk shakes), and I feel really good. I actually attribute most of this to the fact that it's so strict you can't help but eat less overall, and what you are eating usually has less calories than what you would've been eating before.

One of my friends made some awesome paleo brownies the other day, and I'm probably try my hand at paleo-friendly pumpkin bread this weekend. It'll be a big change from the usual pumpkin bread that I make that calls for 3 cups of sugar

8/18/2011 9:19:39 PM

IF for about 6 months, but was just pounding food and ate sloppy. About 3 weeks ago, I started Paleo and have dropped about 15 lbs, don't crap my pants after every meal and feel 10x more energized.

Still haven't done a cheat meal (though I will have a beer a couple of times a week) and had my first meal with dairy (full fat greek yogurt) today.

The hardest part I've found is planning meals, it really takes some work for a good meal.

And US Wellness Pemmican Sticks are the

8/18/2011 9:43:36 PM

^^ I take BCAAs around 11, lift til about 12:30, first meal is around 1, which ends my feed window by 9

I do this every day except Saturday, where it just doesn't fit with my schedule

8/18/2011 9:45:27 PM

^I'm doing the exact same thing.

I guess I need to take my BCAAs earlier though. 60 minutes before lifting? I figured it was almost immediately before. Derp.

[Edited on August 18, 2011 at 9:46 PM. Reason : 60, 90, no clue]

8/18/2011 9:46:38 PM

so what do you eat at restaurants? my gf is starting paleo and i am wondering how hard it will be to find a suitable place to go out

8/18/2011 9:57:50 PM

^ meat and veggies. Almost any chain restaurant is going to have at least one meal that fits the bill, like chicken and veggie meledy. Lunch today was Crazy Fire Mongolian Grill with no rice. Specialty places are a little harder, but usually doable. The hardest places are going to be those that carter to mostly vegetarians/vegans, because they'll have few meat choices and lots of grains.

8/18/2011 10:05:10 PM

^^^ I usually lift around 11:30, so it's 30 min prior

8/19/2011 5:12:39 AM

i'd do this but i refuse to give up ice cream and beer

8/19/2011 7:58:15 AM

Quote :

"For those of you who couldn’t attend the first-ever Ancestral Health Symposium that happened August 5th and 6th, I’ll try not to rub it in your face that you missed out on one of the most fantastic health events in the history of the universe. I won’t tell you how you should have soul-crushing regrets about not purchasing a ticket in time, or how you should feel so ill with remorse that you skip work for the rest of the week and sob quietly on your bedroom floor, lamenting. Because that would just be mean."

8/19/2011 8:42:40 AM

Been paleo/cave for a little over a month now with some positive results. I wasn't eating horribly before starting, but dairy (and possibly gluten) really jacks my stomach up, so I've seen a lot of improvement there. I lost 10lbs in the first few weeks, which was not exactly a goal I was going for or in need of. The hardest part for me has been avoiding bread, which if I do eat, I just go with gluten-free bread. Snacking was tough at first, nuts and fruit were all I'd snack on, but you start to figure out different things as well (home made beef jerky and fruit rollups, etc). Lack of condiments was pretty tough too, especially when you're eating a burger on a lettuce wrap, but there are recipes for homemade ketchup and mustard that work just fine.

Going strict paleo is pretty damn tough, but primarily avoiding dairy/gluten and "cheating" in moderation still has a lot of positive effects.

8/19/2011 9:21:35 AM

^^ You have a crush on her or something. I've read a few of her articles.

I usually have a hard time remembering in my head how to explain to people why I don't eat certain foods.

Vegetables Oils - Too many PUFAs. Offsets the Omega 6 : Omega 3 ratio. Can be rancid when cooked at high temperatures
Grains - Reduces response to Leptin (tells you to stop eating). Has proteins that are not easily digestible and can damage the intestinal lining. Reduces insulin sensitivity. Has phytates that bind to certain minerals so your body does not absorb them.

When I explain these things I feel crazy but when they see how thin I am they listen up.

8/19/2011 9:49:04 AM

Quote :

"You have a crush on her or something."

No shit.

Quote :

"I usually have a hard time remembering in my head how to explain to people why I don't eat certain foods."

I know what you mean. The way I try to explain it is focusing on foods that are nutrient dense and avoiding foods with anti-nutrients. Most people are not familiar with anti-nutrients, but they are easily explained.

"It may come as a surprise, but plants are not benign, altruistic organisms just waiting to send their next generation of young into our mouths in the form of sushi rice or French bread.

8/19/2011 9:55:32 AM

Haha I'm watching her video. She is pretty cute and smart too

The hardest part of the diet to me is that I'm supposed to only eat grass fed beef. That shit is expensive. I bought some grass fed hamburger meat from the Farmer's Market but the rest of the cuts are $$$$. I hope grass fed beef will become more common and the price will drop. For now I'll have to eat grain fed and supplement with fish oil.

8/19/2011 10:05:12 AM

Yea... I usually drive all the way to Raleigh just to find it. I think I need to start ordering online or something.

8/19/2011 10:17:40 AM

I've been reading about this a lot and would like to try it. But I have no clue what to do. Where I live I have awesome access to local foods, veggies and meats (grassfed, biodynamic etc) but I don't know how to cook without using grains and everything.

Can you share some recipes and meal plans that you use and really like? What's your "go-to" meals when you're low on time? What do you find yourself buying at the grocers/farmers market every week?

Thanks!

8/19/2011 10:58:36 AM

omelets!!!

8/19/2011 11:15:35 AM

Some resources for planning meals:
http://robbwolf.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/thePaleoSolution_QuickStart.pdf
http://robbwolf.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/thePaleoSolution_FoodMatrix.pdf

You can google a bunch of paleo recipes, but putting together a meal is really simple. You cook some meat and add 1-2 vegetable sides and/or salad. Often, a stir fry is an excellent way to put this stuff together.

If you're missing pasta, try putting some pasta sauce on spaghetti squash or broccoli. If you're missing rice, you can make "cauliflower rice." If you're good with starch, adding a potato or sweet potato is excellent.

8/19/2011 11:15:37 AM

where do you usually find spaghetti squash?

I've been using a julienne peeler and Zucchinis which works pretty well for pasta

[Edited on August 19, 2011 at 11:29 AM. Reason : Im not really paleo yet though -- still trying]

8/19/2011 11:24:33 AM

They have it pretty regularly at the Harris Teeter out here.

I did something like that for an egg and zucchini casserole. Delicious.

8/19/2011 11:37:29 AM

I basically throw a big piece of meat into the oven with spices on it like a beef roast, pork roast, or chicken. That way I can eat for days. Between cooking large meals I will eat fish. Then I will eat some veggies with it like squash, sweet potatoes, or brocolli. This is the food my mom cooked for me when I was growing up anyway so I naturally gravite towards this diet. I eat a salad for lunch almost every day. It is the same grilled chicken salad with olive oil and balsamic vinegar and I don't get tired of it. Some people would I guess.

For fancier recipes you can go to Mark Sisson's website. I also have his book but most of the recipes I use are from my mom.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-recipes/

8/19/2011 11:41:57 AM

mmmm this looks soooo good! http://www.marksdailyapple.com/butter-chicken-in-a-silky-sauce/

^thanks!

[Edited on August 19, 2011 at 12:19 PM. Reason : primal recipe]

8/19/2011 12:10:19 PM

Tried something similar to Paleo for 2.5 weeks. My chiropractor swears by it; she does some kind of health stuff as a secondary job/personal goal/whatever. I got through the weeks, but I felt very lethargic toward the end. Thoughts?

Not sure on the research (there's a LOT of crap out there), but the general theory is

* The body burns sugar or fat for energy
* A lifestyle of too much sugar (or white breads / potatoes) make the body lazy, turn to sugar first.
* Sugar causes cells to be 'inflamed' (questionable) and make it harder to get nutrients/energy to/from cells. It also makes the body more and more insensitive to insulin, and leptin, leading to pancreatic exhaustion / type 2 diabetes
* If the body's ever hungry it tends to consume sugar (or break down protein) then break down fats. Thus, when people diet they tend to shred muscle much faster then fats.
* Pretty much every cell in the body uses fat, and starving it of fat is a bad idea anyway
* Artificial anything bad for body, especially trans fat (which I agree with)

It goes into the nothing artificial camp. Grass fed beef, organic everything at the least. The diet is high fat, medium carbs/protein. No sugars except berries and green apples or 73% dark chocolate. It allows fruits after a workout, but not much. On the oils thing it suggests coconut oil or grapeseed oil to cook; everything else turns 'rancid' when being heated, which I guess means it turns at least in part to transfat. (Olive oil can handle low/medium heat) Sweeteners like Xylitol/Stevia are fine, not much else.

Supposedly after 2 weeks your body becomes 'detoxed' and your body starts to use fat. Or something like that. Cravings for sugars/breads go away after about a week, and the sweeteners help a little.

So I'm a huge grain person - I literally couldn't remember a meal where I didn't have bread or pasta or rice in the past.. decade. I also react poorly to a lot of green vegetables and seafood, so this diet was extra suck to me.

The cravings thing was true - Stevia drinks (Steaz, Virgil Zero) every now and then kept me from wanting anything too sweet. The Virgil's sodas were actually really good. Earthfare has grass fed beef which tastes pretty good and black bean/soybean pastas which are okay substitutes for pasta.

The thing that surprised me about the diet is how filling it is. After about a week it became a chore to eat - I had to eat but didn't feel like eating jack. Even if someone held a pizza up to my face, it wasn't the food as much as I was always full. The other thing I noticed was a pretty severe lack of energy when working out. I was used to 6-7 miles on longer runs - I could get 2 in and my muscles just felt empty. I was told eating granny apples with almond butter a little before workouts would help with energy levels. And something about chia seeds which I never got into.

After the 2 1/2 weeks, I lost about a pound in muscle and a little bit in fat. I felt alright, except the severe tiredness, and broke off. It seemed really close to paleo, but raw cheeses/yogurts are fine.. I just wish there were more things that didn't take time to cook. It also made me sort of a pariah to outings, so I think I want to at least pick parts of it up again.

The less extreme version allows corns, brown rice, and very rarely whole grains. Could probably do this a little bit better because I like the corn/quinoa pasta blend

8/19/2011 2:08:39 PM

Most of that seems reasonable (except the xylitol and black bean/sobyean pasta).

It sounds like you were eating too few carbs or too little in general. If you've had grains for pretty much every meal of your life, I guarantee it's going to take longer than 2.5 weeks to adapt to having none. Grains are addictive, no joke and the adaption period is well known:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/low-carb-flu/

But the thing I keep saying is paleo doesn't have to be low carb. If you were doing it again, I'd throw in some potatoes, sweet potatoes, squash, maybe some more fruit.

If you really did want to go low carb, it takes 2-3 weeks for most people and I've heard as long as 6 weeks.... especially for athletic performance. There might be reasons you want to do this; my understanding is that, contrary to popular opinion, burning fat is better for endurance training (if you do the math... 1 lb of fat is enough energy to run a marathon and then some; all of your stored glycogen won't get you there). And if you do do this, it'll probably help to make an effort to eat more and go out of your way to eat A LOT of fat.

As far as the "general theory", some of that is nonsensical. My wife sees a chiropractor, so I'm familiar with having to put up with a fair amount of "woo woo."

[Edited on August 19, 2011 at 2:56 PM. Reason : asfadsf]

8/19/2011 2:55:08 PM

All the paleo experts will agree that this diet is not optimal for distance running and that distance running is not the ideal way to exercise. There is a book that Cordain wrote called "The Paleo Diet for Athletes" and allows for stuff like bagels. It is also recommended to get 8-9 hours of sleep every night if you weren't getting that.

Before I lift I drink a little bit of juice. I'm not supposed to but I cut carbs and sugars in other areas. For sweetener I just use honey.

I also love beer. I'm pretty sure beer will be my downfall but I'm trying to move over to tequila/lime juice. It's just dangerous because I usually drink a little too much.

8/19/2011 2:55:28 PM

Quote :

"All the paleo experts will agree that this diet is not optimal for distance running and that distance running is not the ideal way to exercise. There is a book that Cordain wrote called "The Paleo Diet for Athletes" and allows for stuff like bagels."

I don't think it's sub-optimal for distance running.

I agree that most paleo experts would say distance running is bad for your health, but I'm torn on that one as well (just read Born to Run and you'll see what I mean).

I already mentioned the Cordain bagel thing on the first page and I think it's fucking stupid.

8/19/2011 3:03:19 PM

I can't speak to intense workouts, but in general my energy levels have been significantly higher since I started paleo.

8/19/2011 3:12:10 PM

Haha, maybe she and I goto the same one. She does some weird stuff that definitely falls out of the scientific zone; but at least in terms of chiropracty I'd swear by all of it.

Yeah I'm definitely not 'looking' for low-carb, but that article is interesting. If I weren't time pressed for training for a marathon now I'd seriously consider it; I just can't handle a month long disruption atm.

I might have been undereating; I wasn't sure where to get calories from. The highest stuff were trail mixes with raw nuts, cookies made out of almond flour (bleh), and the black bean pasta drizzled with olive oil. I tried using almond flour to make a pizza, but the 'bread' is just gross. I will literally eat pizza all day if I can find an acceptable fake crust.

I've used a tanita scale that keeps telling me I need to eat something like 3000 calories a day to maintain my weight, but it seems a little bs because I can't lose any weight. I think I need to just shoot for 2500. Do 4 runs (3 short 1 long) and 2 short lifts a week. I typically destroy a 44oz smoothie after a long run, haha.

What was wrong with the beans? Besides being a black hole that absorbs all flavor.

8/19/2011 3:24:19 PM

Quote :

"What was wrong with the beans? Besides being a black hole that absorbs all flavor."

Maybe nothing. I was just pointing out that they are not considered paleo, at least from a strict perspective. I really would stay away from the soybeans though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogens

Quote :

"She does some weird stuff that definitely falls out of the scientific zone; but at least in terms of chiropracty I'd swear by all of it."

Ha yea. This guy is really effective, knows his shit, and is constantly learning. He's not specifically promoting paleo, but I've been pleasantly surprised by most of his nutritional recommendations. But when the woo woo comes up, I just have to bite my tongue.

[Edited on August 19, 2011 at 3:42 PM. Reason : asfasdf]

8/19/2011 3:33:26 PM

Quote :

"Maybe nothing. I was just pointing out that they are not considered paleo, at least from a strict perspective. I really would stay away from the soybeans though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogens"

I've heard the same, but the article you linked doesn't agree with what you say

Quote :

"A 2010 meta-analysis of fifteen placebo-controlled studies said that "neither soy foods nor isoflavone supplements alter measures of bioavailable [testosterone] concentrations in men."[27] Furthermore, Isoflavones supplementation has no effect on sperm concentration, count or motility, and show no changes in testicular or ejaculate volume.[28][29]"

which reminds me that I also haven't given up Clif bars

8/19/2011 5:36:02 PM

Alcohol is natural! What about fermented fruits?

8/19/2011 5:47:07 PM

Paleo + IF is great for dieting and gaining lean mass.

Paleo is also great for general health and should bring you down to your "healthy body weight"

However, trying to gain significant mass on it is very hard.

I generally eat Paleo for most of my meals, but I also fall off and take in 400-800calories worth of cookies, brownies, ice cream, dairy, etc. because I am trying to get gain about 30lbs over the next 6 months.

8/19/2011 5:47:24 PM

Quote :

"I've heard the same, but the article you linked doesn't agree with what you say"

Well, I didn't say anything, but yea that's news to me. Thanks for pointing that out and I'll keep that in mind.

I'm seeing some other resources that claim there are some other issues with soy, but I don't have the time to confirm those claims.

8/19/2011 5:54:33 PM

Quote :

"As such, the only reason Paleolithic man was well fed most of the time was because his neighbors starved to death, succumbed to disease, accident, or violence fast enough to keep the population in check. Robert Malthus was right, about Paleolithic man. He was only wrong about us because modern society is awesome when it comes to food production. "

There's also that whole thing about population density, you typically didn't have many neighbors to contend with to begin. Thus basing a idea around having your cave man neighbor die so you may live is false. Farming broke early man, life expectancies plummet when farming is introduced abet with a much higher total population. And yes, the US is awesome when it comes to food production. That's the biggest hidden reason no one wants to really fuck with us, we will cut off their food. (China)

8/19/2011 6:04:48 PM

Instead of debating the effectiveness of the diet, we stick to sharing recipes and asking questions. I'm not strict, I will eat canned tomatoes, non grass fed meat, occasionally eat legumes like peas, a scoop of whey PW, etc but keep to the main concepts.

Some of my favorite recipes have been Paleo Spaghetti and Crock-pot BBQ w/ Paleo Colesaw; my all time favorite right now is the PWO Shake:

1 Can Coconut Milk
Frozen Fruit
2 raw eggs
Almond Butter
1 serving Whey
Cinnamon

8/19/2011 7:35:45 PM

love coconut milk in the protein shakes...adds a neat flavor

8/19/2011 8:37:06 PM