Damn, they are finding reads of up to 40 REM/hr at the plant according to this blog... Its getting to a new level now...

For those that don't know (and I didnt need the blog to tell me this), being exposed to that level of radiation for an hour can cause sickness. Being in that radiation for more than a few hours could be fatal and would most certainly pose serious health risks.

http://afludiary.blogspot.com/2011/03/japan-radiation-readings-two-iaea.html

[Edited on March 15, 2011 at 9:39 AM. Reason : .]

3/15/2011 9:38:20 AM

This is all really sad. I really hope Japan rebuilds and recovers from this.

I can't imagine being an operator at the plant KNOWING you are being radiated...

3/15/2011 10:27:37 AM

Don't be silly. Everything is fine there. Nuclear power is perfectly safe, like magic. Everyone should travel to Fukushima to help in the recovery. Especially the guys in this thread with all the nuclear insight, they should help on-site. They would make great liquidators. Don't worry, they'll provide the shovels.

3/15/2011 10:37:24 AM

3/15/2011 11:02:18 AM

Quote :

"I can't imagine being an operator at the plant KNOWING you are being radiated... "

Dude... dude.

Picture this:

It's 2:46pm on Friday and you're in the control room. Your wife and kids are out at work and school. Maybe you're looking forward to going out drinking after this with your other shift workers.

Earthquake happens and the room is flooded with 4 different kinds of alarms and flashing lights. Everything is automatically shutting down and you're frantically assessing the state of the reactor you're assigned to. You have the backup power running, everything is stabilized.

Then the tsunami hits. Almost everyone you know is dead. No communication from your loved ones, not that you would be talking to them if you could, because this is what you bought yourself into when you took this job - you have to watch the reactor. There was no training that covered anything close to this event, you've lost all backup power, and things are heading south. You realize the only reason you're alive is because you're in the control room built like a military bunker and you're probably a good candidate for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder at this point.

Let's be real. This person isn't worried about his dose limit. This person isn't worried about an increased risk of cancer. Unless it is killing him right then and there, this guy has bigger things to think about. And I seriously applaud the efforts that the Japanese nuclear workers have put into this truly unthinkable event.

3/15/2011 11:25:06 AM

Yeah, I hear you....that is absolutely horrifying to even think about. I was reading few years ago about emergency personnel that built the sarcophagus over Chernobyl. They said most of them knew they will die within days after pouring concrete. It was a short clip of them loading up in the bus with grim faces. It is one thing do know the risks of doing something dangerous, but completely different knowing with certainty you WILL die from doing a job.
It is the ultimate sacrifice for an individual to benefit many.

3/15/2011 11:47:15 AM

Thankfully we haven't gotten to that point. We've had 11 or more people injured on that site, so they are taking a toll, but it is kind of amazing that they haven't lost anyone yet.

While watching one of the videos of a Hydrogen explosion just think to yourself "no one died", that's rather amazing. We're not talking about shiny happy green fields anymore. Getting the job done and not getting anyone killed is a serious task. This is what firefighters have to deal with, and maybe a little bit more frightening.

I don't think self-sacrifice often does much good. You are fare more helpful alive than dead. The 40 REM/hr area is very concerning, and I could see someone having to go in there. They can still fractionate the dose and rotate workers. Chernobyl was a very different time and place.

3/15/2011 11:55:12 AM

Let me ask a dumb question. I know a good amount about radiation, but I dont know anything about plant design...

1) Why is the sea water cooling system failing? In other words, what is different from using regular water (other than corrosion issues)? Do the pumps continue to die???
2) Question from someone else (it sounds like a a really stupid question, but I would be speaking out of my ass if I said I knew exactly why). Why dont they use some other substance to cool the core with (such as liquid nitrogen).

3/15/2011 1:49:08 PM

They lost somebody a couple days ago. This is from TEPCO press release on the 13th:

Quote :

"Fukushima Daini Nuclear Power Station: Units 1 to 4: shutdown due to earthquake * The national government has instructed evacuation for those local residents within 10km radius of the periphery. * At present, we have decided to prepare implementing measures to reduce the pressure of the reactor containment vessel (partial discharge of air containing radioactive materials) in order to fully secure safety. These measures are considered to be implemented in Units 1, 2 and 3 and accordingly, we have reported and/or noticed the government agencies concerned. * Unit 3 has been stopped and being "nuclear reactor cooling hot stop" at 12:15PM. * The operator trapped in the crane operating console of the exhaust stack was transferred to the ground at 5:13PM and confirmed the death at 5:17PM. "

So yea, one guy. Not sure exactly what killed him, but it said he was trapped in the Reactor #1 exhaust crane operation center.

3/15/2011 1:59:42 PM

I'll bet he slipped on a freshly mopped floor or something. Certainly wasn't related to a top 3 nuclear disaster in all of human history.

3/15/2011 2:35:29 PM

I'm not even sure what you're trolling about. Top 3 out of all of the 3-4 nuclear reactor "disasters" even worth talking about?

3/15/2011 2:45:49 PM

I think it was related to the fact he was operating a crane in a large industrial facility during a major natural disaster.

3/15/2011 2:46:40 PM

yep ^

smc:
This is terrible no doubt. You will not find anyone in here who doesn't admit to that and admit that this is a serious incident. I am not some uber-pro nuclear person as it is only one of the industries I have experience in. I have no problem with people opposing stuff if they oppose it with facts as opposed to plain media-driven fear. If you can explain how a terribly placed, outdated reactor getting hit by a 9.0 Earthquake and a Tsunami proves that all nuclear is unsafe no matter the design or the location I will be glad to hear it. In fact I would be glad to hear anything from you in here other than a sarcastic or troll response.

There are certainly drawbacks to nuclear (as with most forms of energy production). It's nowhere close to a silver bullet. If you have serious opposition to bring to the table, let's talk about real problems or solutions in this thread other than "omg nucular is teh devil." It would be nice to not have to play the juvenile game of "is this poster trolling or serious?" for a change.

[Edited on March 15, 2011 at 2:57 PM. Reason : .]

3/15/2011 2:52:44 PM

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/05/02/nra/index.html

Quote :

"Coming out shooting In the wake of the Littleton massacre, the NRA holds its convention in Denver, less than 20 miles away from Columbine High School. "

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/15/nuclear.lobby/

Quote :

"Nuclear energy lobbyists scramble on Capitol Hill "

I'll bet the Nuclear Energy Institute holds their annual convention in Tokyo.

[Edited on March 15, 2011 at 3:19 PM. Reason : .]

3/15/2011 3:18:39 PM

...

So I write out a blatant request for intelligent discourse and you post two articles that add 0 to the discussion. Thanks!

I guess I just give too many people the benefit of the doubt on here. Surely people can't actually enjoy trolling this much though...

[Edited on March 15, 2011 at 3:33 PM. Reason : .]

3/15/2011 3:26:24 PM

Well, you admitted you had nuclear reservations, so I guess I'll make a confession as well. I'm secretly fascinated by nuclear plants. I have a giant color glossy photo of Shearon Harris on my wall. Did you know Shearon Harris is currently using one of the electrical generators from Three Mile Island? They pulled it out of mothballs last year and shipped it down here. Thirty years in storage yet still works perfectly. Amazing. I've even marked my favorite spots on the shearon harris grounds on my color glossy wall poster with surveyor symbols in bright red magic marker.

JK, LOL, I'm joking, Agent Jones. Yes I know you said you didn't want to have to visit me again, hahaha.

^It showed that the nuclear apologists know they're in deep shit, just like you guys did when you created this thread to try to preemptively steer public discourse in your favor.

My job is to steer it back from your apocalyptic abyss. Fair is fair, after all.

[Edited on March 15, 2011 at 3:34 PM. Reason : .]

3/15/2011 3:32:38 PM

Quote :

"Why dont they use some other substance to cool the core with (such as liquid nitrogen)."

Someone with a little more knowledge than me can probably tell you more about the neutron physics, but I would imagine that dumping liquid nitrogen into the core would induce one hell of a thermal shock to the system. Not that dumping in cold sea-water isn't bad from that perspective, either, but still. It may be that other cooling mechanisms are bad from a neutron physics standpoint.


^ or maybe the lobbyists are flocking to washington in order to counter-act the media hysteria from ignorant fools such as you

[Edited on March 15, 2011 at 3:36 PM. Reason : ]

3/15/2011 3:34:50 PM

Quote :

"^It showed that the nuclear apologists know they're in deep shit, just like you guys did when you created this thread to try to preemptively steer public discourse in your favor. My job is to steer it back from your apocalyptic abyss. Fair is fair, after all. "

It is true they know they are in trouble, and what is sad is that they are in trouble with largely uneducated nuclear opponents who unfortunately have a lot of influence over the nuclear future of the country. That is why this thread was made. So much unfounded fear and basically completely false information has and will spread as a result of this incident. Why would informed people not want to try and rectify the situation?

Fair is fair no doubt, but it's just frustrating to have people with actual knowledge on the subject attempting to debate something with someone who is posting nothing but pointless drivel. If you want to steer it back, steer it back with some balls not this coach-pitch approach.

Quote :

"^ or maybe the lobbyists are flocking to washington in order to counter-act the media hysteria from ignorant fools such as you"

exactly. That's why the linking of that article was about the most hilarious thing I have read all day.

[Edited on March 15, 2011 at 3:38 PM. Reason : .]

3/15/2011 3:38:05 PM

It's only hysteria if there's not actually a severe crisis.

[Edited on March 15, 2011 at 3:38 PM. Reason : ]

3/15/2011 3:38:19 PM

no, not really.

3/15/2011 3:39:42 PM

Quote :

"Why dont they use some other substance to cool the core with (such as liquid nitrogen)."

I'm not the most knowledgeable either but here is my take:

A) Water has a really high specific heat, much higher than Nitrogen. If you added liquid nitrogen to the super hot reactor then it would pretty much instantly turn to nitrogen gas and enter the atmosphere without absorbing much energy. Water is capable of absorbing more energy per molecule before turning into a gas (really high specific heat), so it would absorb more energy from the reactor before turning to water vapor/steam and entering the atmosphere.

B)They have an almost limitless supply right next to the plant and don't have to worry about storage.

3/15/2011 3:54:12 PM

^ That makes sense. I want mrfrog to opine.

Good running blog

http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html

3/15/2011 4:29:41 PM

one would think The Land of the Rising Sun would embrace solar energy more fervently

3/15/2011 5:04:06 PM

Can't, too many people, not enough land. They'd have to make their citizens wear solar panels on top of their heads.

3/15/2011 5:24:58 PM

Also, photovoltaic solar panels become less effiecent when they heat up.

3/15/2011 5:34:52 PM

^^ that would make for some awesome hats



[Edited on March 15, 2011 at 5:47 PM. Reason : ^^]

3/15/2011 5:47:13 PM

Quote :

"1) Why is the sea water cooling system failing? In other words, what is different from using regular water (other than corrosion issues)? Do the pumps continue to die??? "

from what i read (and some NE correct me if im wrong) water is neutron moderator, which essentially means it slows down the speed of released neutrons during fission. if neutrons are too fast chain reaction can become uncontrolled. reaction becomes uncontrolled when rods are exposed (not covered with water) and become so hot that rod meltdown occurs.

i think they also use helium gas in some other applications as coolant, but in this scenario that would be worthless.



[Edited on March 15, 2011 at 5:58 PM. Reason : h]

3/15/2011 5:56:43 PM

Quote :

"Why is the sea water cooling system failing? In other words, what is different from using regular water (other than corrosion issues)? Do the pumps continue to die???"

The main issue is that they're using fire pumps to deliver water to the reactor. Fire pumps are typically low-head pumps, i.e, they can't pump to a high pressure. The reactor is hot (obviously), so water entering the systems boils, produces steam in a closed system, and reactor pressure rises. Pressure eventually rises high enough that the fire pump can no longer pump water into the reactor. To keep going, they need to lower pressure by venting steam. There have been issues operating the valve to vent steam. More than likely, the valve is a motor-operated valve and is not readily accessible due to conditions at the site.

Keep in mind that this isn't really a 'system'. It's ad-hoc emergency cooling.

^ Water is used as a moderator. However, the issue in this case is not an uncontrolled reaction--the reactor is shutdown and subcritical. This issue is decay heat removal. As fission products produced during operation decay, they release energy. This energy (heat) must be removed. Decay heat can be very significant: 7-10% of the heat output of an operating reactor is produced from the decay of fission products (as opposed to directly from fission). That 7-10% still exists immediately after shutdown and continues to decrease from there.

(don't quote me on the exact numbers)

Quote :

"from what i read (and some NE correct me if im wrong) water is neutron moderator, which essentially means it slows down the speed of released neutrons during fission."

Neutrons need to be thermalized (slowed) because the liklihood of uranium undergoing fission with a thermalized neutron is much greater than the liklihood of uranium undergoing fission with a fast neutron. It is possible to design and operate reactors that rely on fast neutrons, but I'm not aware of any commercial reactors that do so (though I admit to never looking into it).

Based on my understanding of the situation, there is very little chance (read: zero) of a runaway reaction a la Chernobyl.

Interesting reading: http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/nuregs/contract/cr6966/

[Edited on March 15, 2011 at 6:19 PM. Reason : more]

3/15/2011 6:06:57 PM

Quote :

"Then the tsunami hits. Almost everyone you know is dead. "

The death toll is only in the tens of thousands. Only one town has had that high of a death toll percentage and its not where the plant is.

3/15/2011 6:21:27 PM

Quote :

"Why dont they use some other substance to cool the core with (such as liquid nitrogen)."

A little known fact about nuclear fuel is that while cooling of the fuel is necessary (and eventually forced by physics whether you like it or not), you don't want to cool the fuel too much. This is undesirable for a number of reasons.

To begin with, the fuel has no problem existing at around 700 degrees F (clad). I'm happy if the fuel is that temperature. Yes, it's hot, but that's the design and it's insanely stable like that. Another reason that I might prefer it to be 700 degrees versus 60 degrees is criticality. Everything from the moderator to the fuel has a negative temperature coefficient and the colder it gets the more you put in radioactivity.

Seawater, however, is not cold enough to make it critical. The reality is that any coolant from 0 to 700 degrees would be wonderful, just cool it with something. You may ask, "but why would they put Boron in the seawater?" They are afraid that the core melts and rearranges into something critical, more or less.

Logistically, liquid nitrogen can't be re-condensed on site, and it's likely that all the liquid Nitrogen produces in the world don't have the capability to make it at the rate the reactor would boil it, if you could transport it in the first place.

Quote :

"7-10% of the heat output"

Right now, Fukushima (yes, all of them, plus other plants) are hovering at around 0.4%

Let's get that point right. It is very important. TMI was a 5% event, Chernobyl was a "OMFG" event.

3/15/2011 6:58:53 PM

OMG that's only 4.6% less than Three Mile island!

3/15/2011 7:55:58 PM

maybe you should take an introduction to numbers course

3/15/2011 8:05:08 PM

Awesome answer mrfrog. Thanks!!

3/15/2011 8:21:53 PM

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/15/eveningnews/main20043554.shtml?tag=cbsnewsTwoColUpperPromoArea

Coming from a fellow nuclear worker (operator), I couldn't imagine what these workers are going through. The rad levels in this situation are unpredictable and dangerously high in many places. Hopefully they will get this situation under control soon so these people don't get too much dose.

3/15/2011 9:37:50 PM

But TMI and Chernobyl were only 1 reactor. Right now we're talking about a single site where 3 reactors and 6 spent fuel pools.

Note that the spent fuel has had longer cooldown - many years on average. But then again, those pools contain several reactor loads, and thus contains many times more fuel than the reactor. And the secondary building that have recently had a tendency to explode recently are actually probably a little important for the containment of the spent fuel pools.

I'm not interested in making this sound better. All of those items are of great concern, but the differences continue past the containment. Chernobyl was exasperated because the gas was hot, therefore rose. The amount of venting to atmosphere with the seawater plan, etc could cause many more releases, but the alternative of not providing enough coolant or over-pressurizing something is worse.

3/15/2011 9:42:36 PM

Radiation at the plant is now reaching areas which is unworkable. Spiked to 100 REM/hr

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Radiation-forces-work-to-stop-apf-3314845701.html?x=0&.v=91

3/15/2011 11:35:09 PM

They can't wait to build two more reactors in Raleigh! There's no such thing as bad publicity, right?
http://www.wral.com/business/story/9272581/

3/15/2011 11:52:03 PM

3/16/2011 12:29:17 AM

The situation at the Fukushima plant has reached Level 6 on the ascending seven-step international scale for evaluating nuclear accidents, the director of France's ASN nuclear safety authority said Tuesday.

"It is clear that we are at Level 6," Andre-Claude Lacoste said at a press conference in Paris.

The only Level 7 event in the history of nuclear power was the 1986 meltdown at the Chernobyl plant in Ukraine, while the 1979 incident at Pennsylvania's Three Mile Island is classified as a Level 5.

3/16/2011 4:30:15 AM

Japanese authorities have explained their decision to not change it from a level 4 event because the radiation danger is mostly localized.

Their words, not mine.

3/16/2011 9:00:29 AM

France Issues Evacuation Order for All French Citizens in Japan

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/03/16/uk-japan-quake-france-idUKLNE72F04W20110316

3/16/2011 9:54:00 AM

totally unnecessary capitalization from smc, your posts are like watching a text version of CNN.

3/16/2011 10:05:45 AM

This is EXACTLY like The China Syndrome

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8384059/Japan-earthquake-Japan-warned-over-nuclear-plants-WikiLeaks-cables-show.html?sms_ss=reddit&at_xt=4d807a7f6c55945b%2C0

"There is something precarious about the way all electric power companies are falling in step with each other under the banner of the national policy. We have seen too many cases of cost reduction competition through heightened efficiency jeopardizing safety."

The cables also disclose how Taro Kono, a high-profile member of Japan's lower house, told US diplomats in October 2008 that the government was "covering up" nuclear accidents.

The cables also disclose how the Japanese government opposed a court order to shut down another nuclear power plant in western Japan because of concerns it could not withstand powerful earthquakes.

[Edited on March 16, 2011 at 10:16 AM. Reason : ]

3/16/2011 10:09:42 AM

^ The fact that you find any of this novel shows that you know nothing about the past 2 decades of the Japanese nuclear industry. And people have been continuously "sounding the alarm" on the earthquake proofing of the plants, the old plants, reprocessing, and basically everything else. It matters not, these claims are continuously sounded off all over the world.

The 2002/3 TEPCO data coverup scandals did matter. That's nice that someone found another case where industry covered something up. It pales in comparison to the major load they had at that time.

The Japanese never trusted TEPCO. They never trusted their government. They still don't. There's nothing new there, but the emergency actions are supported by nuclear industry leaders all over the world. I mean that we would have done the same thing if it happened here, and there is no room left for the industry to water down the effects on the public at this point.

The physical reality is what matters right now. Another lie is water under the bridge.

3/16/2011 11:06:39 AM

If the Jap government will lie to protect a sacred industry, so will the American one.

We can't have nuclear power if we can't trust the government. It's time to end it.

In fact, this thread has convinced me. Your kind can't be trusted. You will make excuses and say "this can never happen here" even as Rome burns before your very eyes.

[Edited on March 16, 2011 at 11:21 AM. Reason : .]

3/16/2011 11:13:53 AM

smc, as a moderator, I am asking you to cool it. This thread was fairly peaceful and informative until you got involved. If you want to start a thread on your nuclear views, by all means do so. Otherwise be respectful (a foreign idea on tww, i understand)

[Edited on March 16, 2011 at 11:48 AM. Reason : .]

3/16/2011 11:47:16 AM

What's odd about this event happening now, is in the past few months I got fairly interesting in radiation, radioactive elements, decay chains, and radiological accidents. I am geeky like that. I purchased a professional grade geiger counter (not a cheap one) that would read up to 1 REM/hr. I even have a 30,000 CPM (gamma and beta- yes, I know this is bastardizing the CPM measurement) sample of uranium ore for testing. And for giggles, I purchased a set of 3 CDV-717 ionization chamber survey meters (not really good until you start getting over 100 millirem/hr, and they are really for very high level detection). I think I purchased the CDV-717s for $30 total. I received 5 of them (4 work). The blooming CDV-717s are selling for over $100 a piece on ebay now (seen one for over $200). The geiger counter I have has doubled in price.

[Edited on March 16, 2011 at 11:58 AM. Reason : .]

3/16/2011 11:57:11 AM

^I never got to see your "present". I need to come over and check it out. Really want to try the geiger counter.

3/16/2011 12:05:15 PM

Very well, nothing but cold hard facts from me from now on.

Reports: Lax oversight, 'greed' preceded Japan nuclear crisis
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2011/0316/Reports-Lax-oversight-greed-preceded-Japan-nuclear-crisis

House Panel Questions Nuclear Regulatory and Energy Chiefs
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/house-panel-to-question-nuclear-regulatory-and-energy-chiefs-face/?src=mv

Are nuclear reactors vulnerable to solar storms?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/post/are-nuclear-reactors-vulnerable-to-solar-storms/2011/03/16/ABeCTae_blog.html

China suspends new nuclear plants
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/china/China-suspends-new-nuclear-plants/articleshow/7719509.cms

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Armed guards at Progress Energy's Shearon Harris nuclear power plant near Raleigh have blown the whistle on what they describe as lax security resulting from a corporate culture focused on containing costs.
http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/guards-sound-alarm-over-security-at-shearon-harris-nuclear-plant/Content?oid=1196255

"People are so frightened," says the guard, who says he's worked at Shearon Harris for more than a year, starting at $13.50 an hour. "They get fired right and left."

"Progress (Energy) allegedly required the personnel involved in one incident to sign non-disclosure agreements in order to keep the mishap secret."

"...the company requires them to take answer keys into the testing area, they say...the practice is "eerily reminiscent" of widespread cheating on exams by operators at one unit of the Three Mile Island nuclear power plant in Pennsylvania during efforts to restart it following the partial meltdown of the plant's sister unit. "



[Edited on March 16, 2011 at 12:37 PM. Reason : .]

3/16/2011 12:25:56 PM

Japan's nuclear regulations are poor. China's are even worse. There are negligent workers in every industry (see the number of oil related events).

I guess the point you are trying to make is that stupid, ignorant, corrupt humans can mess things up during operation no matter how well you design and build them. And to that, you are probably right; the amount of negligence so many people display is sickening to me, especially when they are in important public-safety related positions.

I still stand by the opinion that nuclear power plants are inherently very safe when built, operated, and maintained according to modern design standards. I do agree that humans add a variable in operation that can lead to or be correlated with negative outcomes.

3/16/2011 2:05:20 PM