Quote :

""Majority of Americans support gay marriage" Well, then, where's the Constitutional amendments? Hell, where are the state laws being passed all over to support this? "

huh? this poll just came out a few days ago, and is the first time the numbers have broken down this way. It’s been trending that way for a while though, so it’s not surprising.

we’ll probably see lawmakers follow suit soon enough, obviously.

Quote :

"oooooooor people just have free will. DOH "

LOL. You can’t have both free will and God’s will acting at the same time. DOH

5/21/2011 12:50:14 PM

Quote :

"Why? Because he doesn't do what you want Him to do? Because he doesn't act like Superman and come in and save the day at every opportunity? How far should that extend? Should God prevent you from stubbing your toe? Should He prevent you from being fired? Should He make sure your fridge is always stocked with your favorite beverages and foods? Where is the line of "caring" for you?"

Somewhere between preventing me from stubbing my toe and preventing a tree from crushing my children. This question is so fucking absurd that it barely merits a response.

5/21/2011 4:47:28 PM

You have no understanding of how God works.

5/21/2011 4:50:23 PM

Then enlighten me. does God have the power to prevent children from being crushed by a tree?

5/21/2011 4:55:10 PM

Yes, but He chooses not to.

God moves in mysterious ways.

(it's alright, it's alright, it's alright)

5/21/2011 5:14:34 PM

Quote :

"LOL. You can’t have both free will and God’s will acting at the same time. DOH"

Who said God was controlling every last thing? It's not like the Lord's Prayer says "Thy will be done" or anything, as if to say, "let what you want to happen here happen", suggesting that what God wants is not what always happens

Quote :

"Somewhere between preventing me from stubbing my toe and preventing a tree from crushing my children. This question is so fucking absurd that it barely merits a response."

And if He did that, then it would occur that stubbing your toe was the absolute worst thing that could ever happen, and you would know of nothing else worse, so you would be bemoaning that God does not stop you from stubbing your toe.

5/21/2011 6:04:27 PM

No I wouldn't. The absolute worse thing that can happen is suffering then death. Such things exist in our world in a way that suggests that there is not an omnipotent being having any impact on such things.

Now that doesn't necessarily say that he's not there, because according to you he's a narcissistic prick, and we should expect childhood cancer, natural disasters, starvation, and other things which we are not a product of human free will to cause us suffering and death.

Your canned response of "he doesn't act the way you want him to" is not necessary and doesn't address this in the least, so keep it. PROVE THAT HE DOES NOT. PROVE THAT HE ACTS IN THE PRESUPPOSED WAY THAT YOU THINK HE SHOULD. Get the fuck out of here with this shit.

But if the claim is that there is a God that has some type of discernible effect on reality, the fact that there has been no proof of a discernible effect on reality is strong evidence (in spite of your absolutely retarded notions of word usage) that there isn't actually a God that has a discernible effect on reality.

[Edited on May 21, 2011 at 8:34 PM. Reason : .]

5/21/2011 8:26:36 PM

Quote :

"Who said God was controlling every last thing?"

No one did.

But it’s most likely, if you use the parameters laid out in the Bible at least, that he’s not controlling anything.

5/21/2011 10:20:35 PM

God's will is an interesting thing Biblically and has led to much factioning within Christianity. One example of this is the Calvinists who believe that the term "predestinate" meant that people were chosen before they were born. This is further confounded by the idea that the will of God existed before time began in eternity. What makes God's will real to men is the Holy Spirit, which further complicates our understanding of the will of God.

5/22/2011 12:06:09 AM

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

5/22/2011 9:12:34 AM

^^That is complete and utter nonsense. What does "before time began in eternity" even mean? How can something be before time? Don't you have to have time to have a frame of reference for concepts like before and after?

Quote :

"What makes God's will real to men is the Holy Spirit, which further complicates our understanding of the will of God."

You realize this is indistinguishable from delusion right? You can't demonstrate the Holy Spirit's existence or influence on men, so to say that it's helpful in understanding the will of something else you can't demonstrate sounds like complete gibberish.

Quote :

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

Yes. Unless you're defining sound as the actual interpretation of the physical disturbances in air that we interpret as sound then no. But the physical disturbances are there independent of the presence of a listener. That koan is lame.

[Edited on May 22, 2011 at 12:16 PM. Reason : .]

5/22/2011 12:12:22 PM

Quote :

"What does "before time began in eternity" even mean?"

Easy Stu, this is the example presented in the Bible. I cannot perceive Eternity because it exists outside of time. I do not know how that works. I'm not trying to present some completely air tight arguments here am just trying to explain things Biblically because I wouldn't want to explain God any other way, because it would be influenced by my own interpretation. Hope everyone is having a nice 22nd .

5/22/2011 4:40:56 PM

Quote :

"You realize this is indistinguishable from delusion right? You can't demonstrate the Holy Spirit's existence or influence on men, so to say that it's helpful in understanding the will of something else you can't demonstrate sounds like complete gibberish."

Of course you can. There are plenty of people who have been changed dramatically by the Holy Spirit.

5/22/2011 5:49:18 PM

you guys don't really need to defend yourself, the argument is missing the point of what something based on faith is.

5/22/2011 6:00:36 PM

^^And people have also claimed to be dramatically changed by Allah, Zeus, Odin, Shiva, [insert G/god(s) here], etc. You Christians have no problem dismissing all other gods' supposedly influence as delusion. See the irony yet?

5/22/2011 6:36:32 PM

That line of argument doesn't work, because if Yahweh were real then there would be no problem rejecting all other gods while believing in Him.

5/22/2011 9:26:40 PM

Quote :

"Who said God was controlling every last thing? It's not like the Lord's Prayer says "Thy will be done" or anything, as if to say, "let what you want to happen here happen", suggesting that what God wants is not what always happens"

According to the Bible, the Christian God knows all of our future actions, therefore he created us knowing the paths each of us would choose. If this is the case, there is no free will, only the illusion of free will.

5/23/2011 2:23:54 AM

Quote :

"That line of argument doesn't work, because if Yahweh were real then there would be no problem rejecting all other gods while believing in Him."

But if Allah were real then there would be no problem rejecting all other gods while believing in him.
But if Odin were real then there would be no problem rejecting all other gods while believing in him.
But if Vishnu were real then there would be no problem rejecting all other gods while believing in him.
But if Amun-Ra were real then there would be no problem rejecting all other gods while believing in him.
But if the Flying Spaghetti Monster were real then there would be no problem rejecting all other gods while believing in him.

See the problem? There is no more evidence that Yahweh is real than any other imaginary god. We have no more reason to believe someone was affected by Yahweh than someone who claims to have been abducted by aliens (without evidence to support their claim).

5/23/2011 8:54:39 AM

The funny thing is, the Bible mentions other gods fairly often.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/gods.html

Ancient Hebrews were polytheists. El, Baal, Asherah, Yahweh, etc. I guess Yahweh decided he didn't like the attention his buddies were getting

5/23/2011 9:22:31 AM

That's because many different peoples considered them "gods." Elohim is merely a title marked to imply that there a perceived as something divine. Whereas reference to the one true God within the OT is Jehovah Elohim (Daby's translation of tetragrammon or w/e it's called) or often Jehovah which KJV translates as Lord. And yeah ancient Hebrews were polytheists, if you actually read the OT you might've figured that out.

5/23/2011 4:30:05 PM

And that was a useful addition to this thread how?

5/23/2011 4:39:40 PM

Was addressing Swim's argument.

5/23/2011 4:44:46 PM

^^^
Where did I say Elohim? I said El, who was considered the supreme god, and apparently merged with Yahweh. Asherah was his/their queen . Hadad (Baal) was the god of rain, thunder, fertility and agriculture. The old testament has roots in ancient Hebrew texts.

So do you agree that there are gods other than God? If not, why? If so, how can you assume that the gods of other religions are not real?

[Edited on May 23, 2011 at 4:48 PM. Reason : .]

5/23/2011 4:46:19 PM

They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Deut 32:17

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Deut 32:39

If your trying to argue that the OT says their are other divine beings on the level of God your not going to find an example.

5/23/2011 4:54:44 PM

I don't think adultswim ever claimed that the other 'gods' where considered at the same level as 'Yahweh'.

In fact, you need not look further than the 1st commandment to see evidence that ancient people believed that their god was the one true god in a pantheon of lesser false gods.

5/23/2011 4:56:14 PM

My mistake then, the other gods are what we consider fallen angels, and the occult world considers demons. Baal, Moloch, etc.

5/23/2011 5:05:51 PM

Quote :

"See the problem? There is no more evidence that Yahweh is real than any other imaginary god. We have no more reason to believe someone was affected by Yahweh than someone who claims to have been abducted by aliens (without evidence to support their claim). "

thats the point of faith

and why these arguments entirely miss the point and are a waste of breath

5/23/2011 5:58:24 PM

Quote :

"No I wouldn't. The absolute worse thing that can happen is suffering then death."

right now, because you know of it. Now imagine that God takes away that suffering. There is then a new "worst thing that can happen." And it will never be enough for you.

Quote :

"Such things exist in our world in a way that suggests that there is not an omnipotent being having any impact on such things."

only, not really.

Quote :

"According to the Bible, the Christian God knows all of our future actions"

eh, not all biblical scholars agree on this. so, no, not really.

Quote :

"If this is the case, there is no free will, only the illusion of free will."

Even if a being knows what we will do, it does not take away the fact that we chose to do it. Just because some being can work it out on pen and paper what would happen doesn't mean said being controlled it all.

5/23/2011 6:03:05 PM

Quote :

"thats the point of faith and why these arguments entirely miss the point and are a waste of breath"

And you think that's a good thing? You just admitted that the point of faith was to ignore evidence and reason. Just give up and believe whatever feels good to you. If you valued in the least whether your beliefs are true you would abandon faith the instant you heard what the point of it was.

Quote :

"right now, because you know of it. Now imagine that God takes away that suffering. There is then a new "worst thing that can happen." And it will never be enough for you."

You have to conjure up hypotheticals wherein a god can somehow modify the maximum amount of suffering to make your worldview make sense. I don't.

And how do you know it will never be enough for me, anyway? Pain is a quantifiable measurement and there is some threshold of pain that people can stand without too much discomfort. Certainly at some point we wouldn't recognize it as suffering right?

Quote :

"only, not really."

Well fuck, I'm convinced. That entirely thoughtful and well laid out response destroyed even my greatest arguments.

Quote :

"eh, not all biblical scholars agree on this. so, no, not really."

Shocker. So what's the truth?

Quote :

" Even if a being knows what we will do, it does not take away the fact that we chose to do it. Just because some being can work it out on pen and paper what would happen doesn't mean said being controlled it all."

The difference here is we're not talking about a dude sitting at a table predicting (and being amazingly lucky) what might happen. We're talking about a being that knows exactly what every choice you're going to make is. From his perspective, your entire decision-making matrix is pre-determined.

That's what he was referring to as the illusion of free will. You "chose" to do it, but you couldn't have made any other choice or the divine knowledge would have been wrong (which it can't be).

5/23/2011 8:08:23 PM

Quote :

"eh, not all biblical scholars agree on this. so, no, not really."

How did Jesus know Peter would betray him? The Bible is full of prophecies.

5/23/2011 8:36:10 PM

I love that first "prophecy": "Born of the seed of woman." Congrats to the Hebrews for predicting basic biology. And when you look at the actual verses, it's plain there is absolutely no connection between them.

5/23/2011 9:00:14 PM

^
I think you're confused about the point I'm making. I'm showing this to aaronburro as proof that, according to the Bible, God sees the future. Those are biblical prophecies, as in they take place within the Bible. There are absolutely connections between the verses. Along with that list, and the story of Peter's betrayal, the entire book of Revelations is a foretelling of the end of the earth. It's patently false for him to say otherwise.

5/23/2011 9:38:53 PM

Quote :

"And yeah ancient Hebrews were polytheists, if you actually read the OT you might've figured that out. ... If your trying to argue that the OT says their are other divine beings on the level of God your not going to find an example. "

They are more accurately described as "henotheists." Yahweh as their patron-god, and "somehow" this word that referred to their one god evolved into the word used for the one Single god.

And in the OT, when moses was in front of the king didn't the king throw down a staff that his god turned into a snake, then moses had Yahweh turn HIS staff into a bigger snake that ate the other god? I guess you could rationalize this by saying Yahweh turned both of them into a snake for demonstrative purposes...? Or did this other god actually have power back then?

5/23/2011 10:24:33 PM

Quote :

"And in the OT, when moses was in front of the king didn't the king throw down a staff that his god turned into a snake, then moses had Yahweh turn HIS staff into a bigger snake that ate the other god? I guess you could rationalize this by saying Yahweh turned both of them into a snake for demonstrative purposes...? Or did this other god actually have power back then?"

According to scripture they turned their staves into snakes.Though it may have been slight of hand. But the occult has the power to do signs and wonders. Always have and always will.

5/24/2011 12:30:46 AM

Quote :

"But the occult has the power to do signs and wonders. Always have and always will. "

So the power of the devil rivals the power of God, gotcha.

also... wasn't the Bible pretty clear that the other god did this deed? Do non-God gods count as occult? Are you being fast and loose with your reading of the Bible...?

[Edited on May 24, 2011 at 1:06 AM. Reason : ]

5/24/2011 1:05:44 AM

Power of Satan does not rival God. Just look at Job, he needs to ask permission, but he can still do signs.

And no it doesn't say the other gods turned the staves into snakes:

Quote :

"Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments."

Sorry for being lazy and not providing scripture background before.

[Edited on May 24, 2011 at 1:18 AM. Reason : ]

5/24/2011 1:16:11 AM

So you think there actually were wizards and sorcerers?

5/24/2011 7:44:54 AM

That definitely will put a new spin on Harry Potter if I watch it again...

5/24/2011 9:00:12 AM

^That's been the main objection of Christian fundamentalists (Focus on the Family, etc.) to Harry Potter since it came out. They've been saying for years that HP persuades kids to become witches and warlocks.

5/24/2011 12:11:56 PM

5/24/2011 2:55:04 PM

Quote :

"You have to conjure up hypotheticals wherein a god can somehow modify the maximum amount of suffering to make your worldview make sense. I don't."

It's not a hypothetical. And you are the one demanding that a god modify the maximum suffering, not me. You are the on demanding that he prevent every last bad thing from happening or else he isn't real or caring. don't push your conceited argument on me. The fact remains that even if such a being did as you wanted, the human conception of suffering would simply shift to mean something else. And you would bemoan that it still existed.

Quote :

"You "chose" to do it, but you couldn't have made any other choice or the divine knowledge would have been wrong"

No, you would still have chosen it, the "divine knowledge" would have reflected that fact.

Quote :

"I think you're confused about the point I'm making. I'm showing this to aaronburro as proof that, according to the Bible, God sees the future."

I've never claimed that God didn't have knowledge of things. I claimed that he wasn't controlling every last thing, as you suggested earlier. moving the goalposts, I see.

5/24/2011 4:04:34 PM

Quote :

"I've never claimed that God didn't have knowledge of things. I claimed that he wasn't controlling every last thing, as you suggested earlier. moving the goalposts, I see."

You did.

Quote :

"Me: According to the Bible, the Christian God knows all of our future actions" You: eh, not all biblical scholars agree on this. so, no, not really."

Quote :

"No, you would still have chosen it, the "divine knowledge" would have reflected that fact."

Divine knowledge implies he knew the choices we would make before we were born--he has infinite knowledge of past, present, and future. There is no "reflecting" of timelines. There is only one timeline, which is foreseen by God, which you can not deflect from.

5/24/2011 4:19:02 PM

Quote :

"Divine knowledge implies he knew the choices we would make before we were born--he has infinite knowledge of past, present, and future. There is no "reflecting" of timelines. There is only one timeline, which is foreseen by God, which you can not deflect from."

Yes and no. The point is that whatever you actually choose is reflected in the timeline that God knows.

Quote :

"You did."

No, you'll see that I say the question of if God didn't have knowledge of everything is debated by biblical scholars. there is a difference.

5/24/2011 4:57:18 PM

Quote :

"Yes and no. The point is that whatever you actually choose is reflected in the timeline that God knows."

And around we go! If God knows it ahead of time, how is it a choice at all? How could you have chosen anything differently? You can't!

5/24/2011 5:00:11 PM

Quote :

"If God knows it ahead of time, how is it a choice at all?"

this would presuppose that God is part of our timeline, a notion which seems intrinsically impossible if God created our time, itself

5/24/2011 5:20:15 PM

Quote :

"Yes and no. The point is that whatever you actually choose is reflected in the timeline that God knows."

What a shitty attempt to dodge the problem of free will in your fantasy religion.

[Edited on May 24, 2011 at 6:08 PM. Reason : asdf]

5/24/2011 6:07:40 PM

absolutely not. The point is that a choice is made. And, in that line of thinking, God would know what choice was made. But, it is still based on a potentially fallacious notion that God is subject to our time

5/24/2011 6:11:39 PM

So when there is a fundamental issue with the logic presented by your religion you throw up another layer of mystical bullshit. This really sounds reasonable to you?

5/24/2011 6:18:56 PM

it's not a "fundamental problem." The "problem" is derived by applying things to God which cannot logically be applied to Him. You can't bring me to some "problem" by starting off with fallacious reasoning in the first place.

5/24/2011 6:26:03 PM

How convenient for you to believe that.

5/24/2011 6:34:52 PM