Quote :

"if you spray poison on your lawn to kill the weeds you KNOW the grass will be killed as well. You are INTENTIONALLY killing the grass in order to kill the weeds as well."

Somebody has obviously never heard of Weed & Feed.

5/5/2011 5:07:01 PM

Quote :

"Q: Could you hear shots fired? MR. BRENNAN: We were able to monitor the situation in real-time. (Laughter.)"

That also seems to imply that they had live video (or at least audio) of the firefight. The one that didn't actually exist while their feed was out. And this from a man in the room with Obama. Also, Obama himself mentioned the firefight in his address Sunday night.

Quote :

"And I'm not saying "believe the official story outright". I'm saying "I'm not convinced we've even gotten the official story yet.""

The official story has been revised 3 times. The people that were all in the room together can't even decide what happened.

[Edited on May 5, 2011 at 5:18 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on May 5, 2011 at 5:20 PM. Reason : ..]

5/5/2011 5:17:44 PM

Quote :

"Of course, just like the US has interest in the opposite. Who knows which side is telling the truth at this point?"

well because its not in our interest to kill him like that. our interest is either to kill him in battle or capture him and interrogate the shit out of him in some shady, morally questionable manner.

5/5/2011 5:22:26 PM

This 60 minutes interview is very telling, I think.

Quote :

"STEVE KROFT: Did you see the pictures? PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: Yes. KROFT: What was your reaction when you saw them? OBAMA: It was him."

Okay, so let's go over this. Obama's reaction is "it was him." Despite the fact that they had to use facial recognition to verify that it was him because his face was so messed up, Obama's immediate reaction is that he knows it's him.

Quote :

"OBAMA: You know, the truth is that and we -- we're monitoring worldwide reaction. There's no doubt that Bin Laden is dead. Certainly there's no doubt among al Qaeda members that he is dead. And so we don't think that a photograph in and of itself is going to make any difference. There are going be some folks who deny it. The fact of the matter is, you will not see bin Laden walking on this Earth again."

I believe that Osama is dead, and that Obama knows Osama is dead. What I'm not convinced of is that Osama died Sunday.

5/5/2011 5:27:38 PM

But how did, "there was a firefight" and "I don't know whether he had a gun" turn into "Osama fired shots"?

5/5/2011 5:47:21 PM

He said "He was engaged in a firefight with those that entered the area of the house he was in."

How can you be engaged in a firefight without a firearm?

Admittedly, the part about firing shots I mixed up with another news story, which actually was an "anonymous White House official". Not easy to keep track of all of these accounts. Still, "engaged in a firefight" typically means the person is exchanging fire.



[Edited on May 5, 2011 at 6:03 PM. Reason : v lol]

5/5/2011 6:00:59 PM

Quote :

"He was engaged in a ?re?ght with those that entered the area of the house he was in."

How can one be "engaged in a firefight" without a gun?

[Edited on May 5, 2011 at 6:02 PM. Reason : ha, almost the same words... and i didn't even see your post before i made mine!]

5/5/2011 6:01:27 PM

This is a very informative page... make sure to check all the 7 tabs/links at top.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13266944


He was in that house for 5 years, as per his wife:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13300910


[Edited on May 5, 2011 at 6:27 PM. Reason : ]

5/5/2011 6:07:57 PM

That's interesting. Right around the time Dumbya gave up looking for him.

Quote :

" C.I.A. Closes Unit Focused on Capture of bin Laden WASHINGTON, July 3 — The Central Intelligence Agency has closed a unit that for a decade had the mission of hunting Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants, intelligence officials confirmed Monday. The unit, known as Alec Station, was disbanded late last year and its analysts reassigned within the C.I.A. Counterterrorist Center, the officials said. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/04/washington/04intel.html

5/5/2011 7:02:32 PM

But see, the guy said he didn't even know definitively that he had a weapon. He said that it was thought that he was reaching for one. You saw firefight and assumed he meant an actual exchange of fire from Bin Laden took place, which is not at all what he said. Then later, when reports that contradict that notion, but not necessarily the truth of what was actually said, you think that there is a discrepancy that doesn't actually exist.

If you're unarmed but a member of a group that is taking (and possibly exchanging, details) fire could you not also be said to he part of that firefight without actually having to have a weapon and have fired it?

5/5/2011 8:10:46 PM

^
Yep, could be a miscommunication. It's an odd choice of words, though.

5/5/2011 10:28:47 PM

I personally don't give a shit whether bin Laden was armed or not, or resisting or not, or whatever. The only reason I would care at all about taking him alive would be for intelligence exploitation, to include via torture at whatever point softer interrogation ceased to be productive. At whatever point he had no further utility, I would want him executed, then autopsied by the CIA for further intelligence collection, and then chucked into the ocean.



* I am against torture (or "enhanced interrogation techniques", if you prefer that euphemism) as a matter of course. I support the rule of law, and I am all for capturing people alive if they surrender, IAW the laws of war...

I also think that we have black programs for a reason, and that in specific, special cases, it's fine for the President to authorize circumvention or violation of the normal rules.

Osama bin Laden certainly rates deviation from the rules.

5/5/2011 11:37:45 PM

This man got off easy. Two bullets to the head > falling 100 stories from a burning building. We should have took him alive and tortured him the rest of his life. I don't give two shits about intelligence, I want some pay back.

5/5/2011 11:45:37 PM

Quote :

"I personally don't give a shit whether bin Laden was armed or not, or resisting or not, or whatever. The only reason I would care at all about taking him alive would be for intelligence exploitation, to include via torture at whatever point softer interrogation ceased to be productive. At whatever point he had no further utility, I would want him executed, then autopsied by the CIA for further intelligence collection, and then chucked into the ocean. "

He wasn't just valuable - he's probably the most valuable intelligent asset you could capture right now, if he truly was commanding Al Qaeda. These aren't some rookie cops, they're navy fucking SEALS. I would think they could capture, rather than kill, an unarmed target. There's really no telling how many American lives could have saved if he had been captured. Keeping him alive truly should have been one of the priorities of the mission - right now I'm getting the sense that they said, "capture him if you can...but mainly just rush in and execute him."

5/6/2011 12:40:13 AM

Quote :

"right now I'm getting the sense that they said, "capture him if you can...but mainly just rush in and execute him.""

[Edited on May 6, 2011 at 12:44 AM. Reason : ]

5/6/2011 12:44:01 AM

Not rampant speculation, no...

5/6/2011 9:33:18 AM

^^^See my first post on page 2

k?ty

5/6/2011 9:34:58 AM

In 2008, this reporter claimed someone told her that Osama bin Laden was in a villa in Pakistan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0MZhNQ5iaw

5/8/2011 2:06:12 PM

^ The Wikileaks documents had information about Osama being in Abbotobad.

5/8/2011 2:48:15 PM

They could have captured him and then released him to the International Criminal Court, for trial, at The Hague. A whole lot of good could of come from going down that path. It would spare the US from the spectacle of the long drawn out process of housing and then eventually executing the man. It would of shown the rest of the world that we were, in fact, a civilized nation that abides by the rule of law.

[Edited on May 8, 2011 at 3:29 PM. Reason : .]

5/8/2011 3:17:21 PM

There is no way in hell that we would ever even consider turning OBL over to the Hague.

5/8/2011 5:55:50 PM

Which is really sad. This isn't the same kind of debate as allowing US citizens to be under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court.

We really lost an opportunity to up the US's credit on the world stage. Now we look like more of a bully who talks out the side of their mouth when it comes to being "modern".

5/8/2011 6:07:39 PM

I am sure OML would of been so talkative and cooperated and let the USA know all about his plans.....yeah, waterboard the bastard! It saved taxpayer money to kill him, it would of happened anyways.....but been a media circus.....and another thread on here...OBL: GUILTY OR NOT GUILTY.....with d357r0y3r leading the not guilty crew along with his top deputy, aaronburro

[Edited on May 8, 2011 at 6:16 PM. Reason : w]

5/8/2011 6:14:33 PM

so you posted, thought about it, waited two minutes, edited somehow, and that is the result?

lol.

5/8/2011 6:40:22 PM

Hahaha.

5/8/2011 8:19:07 PM

roddy, I swear to the Lord I have pointed out to you several times in the last several years on TWW that WOULD OF is not a correct construction.

And I have always done within 1 or 2 posts of your post.

So how is it that you just don't get it?

message_topic.aspx?topic=480419&page=1#10422882

I refuse to believe that anybody could be so ______.

P.S. And neither is COULD OF, for the user above roddy.

5/9/2011 3:32:52 AM

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/08/us-security-trains-idUSTRE7472CF20110508

Quote :

"A senator on Sunday called for a "no-ride list" for Amtrak trains after intelligence gleaned from the raid on Osama bin Laden's compound pointed to potential attacks on the nation's train system. Sen. Charles Schumer said he would push as well for added funding for rail security and commuter and passenger train track inspections and more monitoring of stations nationwide."

More pointless "security measures". This was really predictable after the announcement that Osama was planning a "9/11 anniversary train attack".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13304809

[Edited on May 9, 2011 at 10:46 AM. Reason : .]

5/9/2011 10:42:18 AM

Quote :

"The Guardian newspaper reports the United States and Pakistan struck a secret deal almost a decade ago permitting a U.S. operation against Osama bin Laden on Pakistani soil. Under the deal, Pakistan would allow U.S. forces to conduct a unilateral raid inside Pakistan in search of bin Laden. Afterwards, both sides agreed, Pakistan would vociferously protest the incursion. On Monday, Pakistan’s Prime Minister Gilani addressed the National Assembly for the first time since U.S. forces secretly entered Pakistan to kill bin Laden. Pakistani Prime Minister, Yusuf Raza Gilani: "Let no-one draw any wrong conclusions. Any attack against Pakistan’s strategic assets, whether overt or covert, will find a matching response. Pakistan reserves the right to retaliate with full force. No-one should underestimate the resolve and capability of our nation and armed forces to defend our sacred homeland." Meanwhile, new details have emerged about last week’s raid. President Obama reportedly insisted that the assault force hunting down bin Laden be large enough to fight its way out of Pakistan if confronted by hostile local police officers and troops."

via democracynow.org

[Edited on May 10, 2011 at 11:51 AM. Reason : .]

5/10/2011 11:50:57 AM

Quote :

"There's really no telling how many American lives could have saved if he had been captured. "

I disagree. I think had we captured OBL, we would have had equivalent or greater retaliative response. Instead of terror attacks carried out under the guise of "revenge," they'd be followed up with statements like, "these attacks will continue until OBL is released."

Capture of OBL alive would be too open ended and leave too much hope/motivation for remaining AQ. While it may incur a certain level of retaliation, death at least provides some measure of closure. It's extremely naive to say it would have saved lives to capture him versus killing/executing him.

5/10/2011 2:25:24 PM

There'd be more closure if we were given proof of his death...at least that's what some families of 9-11 victims are saying.

I think the terrorists are doing whatever they can to harm the U.S. at this point. They'll never be able to do as much damage as domestic policymakers have, though.

5/10/2011 2:38:57 PM

The proof of his death is in how outright and blunt the President and Government has been in reporting the killing of OBL. The President came right out and said that OBL was killed. Not, "it is believed" or, "it is probable," or "existing intelligence leads us to believe," etc.

Do you honestly believe that the President would (or rather that his advisors would let him) make such a definitive statement at the risk of losing virtually all credibility if OBL were to release just one video? I could see a conspiracy theory built around the idea that we did in fact capture him alive and are holding/interrogating him under extreme secrecy. But even if that were the case, he would never see the light of day again, so he's "as good as dead."

I was amongst those who originally wanted to see photographic evidence of his death, but logic and calmer thinking has prevailed. If anyone is arguing that OBL is somewhere unscathed and free, and that this whole thing is a fabrication by the US, that seems like an absurd argument to me.

5/10/2011 3:14:17 PM

Quote :

"If anyone is arguing that OBL is somewhere unscathed and free, and that this whole thing is a fabrication by the US, that seems like an absurd argument to me."

I think the more interesting question is not whether or not bin Laden is indeed dead, but rather if he was really alive until May 1. Most of the speculation that I've seen is that he has been dead for much longer.

5/10/2011 3:19:06 PM

Most of the speculation that I've seen is that he's actually hiding on the moon.

5/10/2011 4:56:27 PM

Quote :

"The proof of his death is in how outright and blunt the President and Government has been in reporting the killing of OBL. The President came right out and said that OBL was killed. Not, "it is believed" or, "it is probable," or "existing intelligence leads us to believe," etc. "

That isn't proof. Politicians say a lot of things. As I've already stated before: I think Bin Laden is probably dead, but I've seen no evidence that he died two Sundays ago. The circumstances surrounding his death, and the lack of physical evidence, has caused me to become very skeptical of the administration's narrative.

5/10/2011 6:46:15 PM

Who says we didn't actually capture bin Laden?

If the enemy knew we captured him, then he would be of much less use to us, as they would know that he could potentially leak a lot of there secrets. Now if everyone thinks he is dead....

5/10/2011 6:51:53 PM

That's another plausible theory.

5/10/2011 6:54:16 PM

Quote :

"The circumstances surrounding his death, and the lack of physical evidence, has caused me to become very skeptical of the administration's narrative."

Awesome, you're already going headlong down the crazy shitball path you've laid out for yourself. You can take a shortcut if you like and go ahead and become racist. Here let me help you:

JUICE KILLED BIN LADEN

OSBAMA IS A FORIEGN BORN MUSLIM

WTC WAS A CONTROLLED DEMONSTRATION ORCHESTRATED BY THE GOVERNMENT

that should get you started.

5/10/2011 7:42:23 PM

Yeah, d357r0y3r, stop being such a stupid butt-head government hater. Why would they ever lie to us?. Why do you need to question anything when we have popular opinion and experts to form conclusions for us?

5/10/2011 9:06:48 PM

Wanna bet I can make more linkwords with bullshit conspiracy theories?

5/10/2011 9:36:48 PM

I'm positive you could, but it doesn't discredit the ones that are true. If no one questioned, none of the stories I posted above would have come to light.

5/11/2011 8:17:25 AM

The level of proof you seek is far beyond what you'll ever get. It is beyond what we have for most events in human history.

By your standards, there are too many "questionable circumstances" to believe anything in our history text books.

5/11/2011 9:08:58 AM

Did you seriously link the Warren Commission? I'm done responding to you.

5/11/2011 9:09:22 AM

^
Explain?

Quote :

"The level of proof you seek is far beyond what you'll ever get. It is beyond what we have for most events in human history. By your standards, there are too many "questionable circumstances" to believe anything in our history text books."

Mmm not really. History books do change, by the way.

[Edited on May 11, 2011 at 9:17 AM. Reason : .]

5/11/2011 9:13:25 AM

Quote :

"I think Bin Laden is probably dead, but I've seen no evidence that he died two Sundays ago. The circumstances surrounding his death, and the lack of physical evidence, has caused me to become very skeptical of the administration's narrative. "

Ding ding ding.
I think given the strange recent events I don't think it is a stretch at all to assume that OBL was already dead. The threat of OBL was used to help rally support for our efforts in Afghanistan. Now that it is time to withdraw it was time to get rid of "OBL".

5/11/2011 10:06:29 AM

Move to Prison Planet?

5/11/2011 11:07:45 AM

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/05/19/25M-bin-Laden-reward-wont-be-given/UPI-34211305849264/

5/20/2011 1:00:51 PM

Quote :

"I think given the strange recent events I don't think it is a stretch at all to assume that OBL was already dead. The threat of OBL was used to help rally support for our efforts in Afghanistan."

So here's my issue. What's the motivation for keeping his death a secret?

Certainly for George W. Bush, the incentive would have been to reveal it -- possibly shortly before the 2006 or 2008 elections -- to prevent the surge in Democratic support. I can't imagine he'd have kept it quiet.

And what does Obama stand to gain? If your theory about "getting rid of OBL so we can leave Afghanistan," there's no particular reason he wouldn't have done it sooner -- and plenty of reasons why he should have. He was under a lot more pressure about his Afghanistan policy earlier in the administration, and a well-timed delivery of the news would likely have helped in in 2010 election.

So, OK, yes, the government theoretically had the opportunity to cover up Osama's death for a while (although even this is dubious, since it requires a lot more people keeping big secrets than can reliably keep them). But I don't see a compelling motive.

5/20/2011 6:13:49 PM

Yeah, I can't think of a worse cover story than saying we slaughtered him and his family as they sat captured, unarmed and helpless in their nightgowns. If you're going to make stuff up, at least let's pretend we're not a nation that employs a military of evil savages.

5/20/2011 6:43:43 PM

Hate to admit it, but the man brings up another excellent point. You'd think we could do a little better than "Shot him in his pajamas while he was unarmed." Also, why implicate Pakistan? What do we stand to gain by pissing them off, losing their support, and chasing them into the waiting arms of our biggest competition (China)? Why not legitimize our presence in Afghanistan by saying we found and killed him there?

Also, you'd think that a conspiracy disciplined enough to keep the whole thing a secret would also be disciplined enough to have its story straight from the get go. Maybe throw in a couple of changes here and there so it doesn't look too convenient, but the wild changes in the narrative those first few days are more likely to draw scrutiny and bad press than anything else.

Again, "could" is only part of the equation. Barack Obama could have ordered someone to kill all those hookers they keep finding in NY, but you're not going to get me to start wondering whether he did unless you offer some reason why he would.

5/20/2011 10:39:57 PM

Quote :

"but you're not going to get me to start wondering whether he did unless you offer some reason why he would"

This is where conspiracy theorists get to exhibit their skill in mental gymnastics. I am completely confident that someone will come up with some far-fetched reason for it.

5/20/2011 10:45:25 PM