^^ he didn't abandon him. I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

If you shoot someone that YOU yourself chased down, that's murder, that's not self-defense.

It's just that simple.


[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 12:56 AM. Reason : ]

3/24/2012 12:54:29 AM

Quote :

"If you shoot someone that YOU yourself chased down, that's murder, that's not self-defense. It's just that simple."

If that's what happened.

3/24/2012 12:58:34 AM

He was looking to see where Trayvon was running to so when the cops arrived he could let them know.

He ABANDONED HIS SEARCH when he lost sight of him.

The last we hear, Zimmerman is no longer in pursuit of Trayvon and is walking back to his car that is some distance away.

This is when he claims Trayvon attacked him and he defended himself.


As far as the EVIDENCE we have now is concerned, Zimmerman just didn't chase Trayvon down, pick a fight with him, and then shoot Trayvon once Trayvon started beating his ass.


^Thank you for apparently being the only competent person on here so far. I'm pretty much convinced that moron and mrfrog are just trolling at this point, but whatever.

[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 1:00 AM. Reason : .]

3/24/2012 12:59:20 AM

^^ yeah, that's what happened.

Kid walking back home, guy admits to 911 he has no good reason to be following him, then ends up shooting him.

^ he didn't abandon his search.

That's just blatantly incorrect, non-factual information.

You are going past the point of trolling, and are now actively deluding yourself.

[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 1:02 AM. Reason : ]

3/24/2012 1:02:13 AM

ITS RECORDED ON THE FUCKING 911 call you idiot.


But I forgot, your opinion trump the evidence lol

3/24/2012 1:04:26 AM

Quote :

"Trayvon was beating Zimmerman, Zimmerman defended himself."

DIRECTLY contradicts the other witness testimony.

Quote :

"they heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees pinning Martin down on the ground"

3/24/2012 1:08:30 AM

^^yeah, the dispatcher asks if he's following him and he says "yeah" the dispatcher says you don't need to do that.

fast forward to the end of the call, the dispatcher says "you want to meet at the mailbox" then zimmerman says "no, have them call me, i'll tell them where i am" because he wants to continue following Zimmerman.

If you listened to the call and didn't grasp this, you are dumb.

[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 1:09 AM. Reason : ]

3/24/2012 1:09:16 AM

^^Before I list my other objections....do you have a source you'd like to link to?

[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 1:09 AM. Reason : carrots]

3/24/2012 1:09:48 AM

Quote :

"DIRECTLY contradicts the other witness testimony."

No, it doesn't.

So Zimmerman shoots the kid, not knowing he has killed his attacker.

It's not unreasonable for him to pin the guy to make sure he doesn't get back up.

Just because someone didn't hear a fight while they were inside doesn't mean it didn't happen.

A guy seeing someone on top of someone fighting isn't discredited by someone who says they were inside and didn't hear it.



[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 1:19 AM. Reason : ,]

3/24/2012 1:12:38 AM

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

According to the police report (which first ided zimmerman as white), Martin's body was found shot, face-down.

He used a 9mm.

They didn't not any blood splatters, but noted grass stains and a broken face.

The idea that Martin was shot during a struggle makes even less sense now.

3/24/2012 1:19:36 AM

If a guy is on top of you, beating you, and you shoot him in the chest, he is already chest toward the ground when he was shot, is he not?

3/24/2012 1:21:26 AM

damn. if he had jumped on me(or even at me) i would have unloaded a clip in his chest.

also moron is on a witch hunt. keep it up though. it's fun watching you try to make this a race/hate crime as much as you possibly can. lol

HMM I WONDER WHY HE WOULD DO THAT lol

[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 1:25 AM. Reason : .]

3/24/2012 1:24:34 AM

So we have a person who a known history of being a frequent caller to 911, who patrols the street like he's a cop, calls the police because a kid is walking around his neighbor "looking around," follows this kid despite requests by dispatchers not to, tells the dispatcher to have the cop call him to tell him where the kid is rather than "abandoning his search," gets in some kind of altercation, and an innocent kid ends up shot, lying face down.

Quote :

"We heard a boy crying. As soon as the shot went off, it stopped, which tells me it was the child crying. If it had been Zimmerman crying, it wouldn’t have stopped. If you’re hurting, you’re hurting.” She and her friend say they heard the sounds from a few steps away, where they were inside beside an open window. Seconds later, they dashed out to find a boy face down on the ground and a man standing over him, a foot on each side of the body on the ground, with his hands pinning the shooting victim down. “I asked him, ‘What’s happening here? What’s going on?’?” said Cutcher’s friend, Selma Mora Lamilla. “The third time, I was indignant, and he said, ‘just call the police.’ Then I saw him with his hands over his head in the universal sign of: ‘Oh man, I messed up.’?” Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/15/v-fullstory/2696446/trayvon-martin-case.html#storylink=cpy"

^^ the shooter would have blood on him. if a guy is on top beating you, you'd have a hard time getting a gun out anyway.

[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 1:26 AM. Reason : ]

3/24/2012 1:25:16 AM

The fact that Trayvon wasn't committing any property violations, had nothing but skittles and tea on him, and that the dispatcher told Zimmerman to back off should be enough for Zimmerman to be charged and held.

The preponderance of witness testimony and circumstantial evidence, Zimmerman's past history, and tone on the phone point to him being out for blood are even more reasons for the cops to detain zimmerman.

Sanford police messed up, this much is obvious.

There's no plausible series of events that can explain why ZImmerman should be out free after shooting an unarmed, innocent kid.

[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 1:31 AM. Reason : ]

3/24/2012 1:30:50 AM

"innocent kid"



zimmerman logic:
1) i hate black kids
2) oh look i have a gun let me go instigate and shoot this poor innocent looking kid walking around in a private gated community where his dads gf happens to live
3) but first i'm gonna call the cops and tell them literally every single move so i fuck it up guaranteed and make sure i get arrested and make this a national media firestorm violent white vs black hate crime

sounds legit.



[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 1:39 AM. Reason : -]

3/24/2012 1:31:28 AM

Why did the neighbors report a child screaming?

Why did Zimmerman's phone instantly hang up when he was supposedly tackled by Trayvon?

Why did the screams stop with the gunshot?

----
It obviously wasn't premeditated before the moment Zimmerman saw him outside his window. Duh. So if your argument is asking why the evidence doesn't point to the idea that Zimmerman planed this long in advance, it's because he didn't.

Listen to the calls:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmnqKotpSD0

3/24/2012 1:39:54 AM

did you mean to post this link?

http://www.craigboyce.com/w/2012/03/trayvon-martin-shooting-911-call/

3/24/2012 1:46:11 AM

So moron takes the word of someone who deduced that it must have been Trayvon crying, because it stopped after the shot, over someone who saw Zimmerman getting beaten and crying.

Yeah, that makes sense.

But maybe this genius witness can't figure out that it makes just as much sense either way. The guy getting shot would certainly stop crying after being shot. But so would the guy getting beaten who, after the shot, is no longer getting beaten.

3/24/2012 1:49:07 AM

^^ the link I posted is among the videos in the link you posted.

Quote :

"the guy getting beaten who, after the shot, is no longer getting beaten."

If you're getting beaten and you bring out a gun... and the guy beating you doesn't see said gun? Physically, how does this happen? He is screaming in pain as he fires the gun? Srsly guys?

[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 1:54 AM. Reason : ]

3/24/2012 1:50:37 AM

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=2831+Retreat+View+Circle,+Sanford,+FL&hl=en&ll=28.79224,-81.329706&spn=0.002877,0.004361&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=42.445866,71.455078&oq=2831+retreat+view&hnear=2831+Retreat+View+Cir,+Sanford,+Florida+32771&t=m&z=18

3/24/2012 1:54:40 AM

Note the caller says they are "behind" her house.

Looking at the map, you can only get there by foot.

Zimmerman clearly pursued Trayvon back there.

3/24/2012 1:59:08 AM

Wouldn't Martin attacking Zimmerman be contrary to the girlfriend's testimony?

3/24/2012 2:00:46 AM

http://sanfordfl.gov/investigation/trayvon_martin.html

straight from the horses mouth...

zimmerman has a 47 page 911 call report.

he probably felt really good being able to shoot Martin.

3/24/2012 2:04:02 AM

hey guys. if somebody suspicious with a hoody approached my property and showed any type of threat i would unabashedly unload an entire clip on you.





also how do you jump to the conclusion he was happy about shooting him? if you read the pdf of his 911 report, most are requests to help find lost animals and normal community watch reports. nothing more or less.

yeh treyvon was responsible for all those garage doors left open, and all those lost k9's and missing people and noise violations...

yep. so glad he finally shot the black guy responsible for every single violation or problem that community has had in the last few years.


[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 2:14 AM. Reason : -]

3/24/2012 2:09:27 AM

^In most places, you'd be arrested.

And yeah, walking home in your own neigborhood with skittles and tea is real suspicious.

3/24/2012 2:13:05 AM

sorry. we live in a fucked up world with lots of crime. life is too fragile to deal with jokers. it all hinges on whether or not trayvon attacked or assaulted this zimmerman

zimmerman didn't do himself any favors by following the guy.


hey also. where i live. i can legally defend myself by murdering you.

[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 2:16 AM. Reason : -]

3/24/2012 2:15:35 AM

Quote :

"Wouldn't Martin attacking Zimmerman be contrary to the girlfriend's testimony?"

It would be. There are 2 witnesses (out of 6 and counting) that have stories consistent with Martin starting it:
- Zimmerman
- "John"

All of the other people on the phone or seeing it paint a picture of Zimmerman attacking some or all of the time.

And that's how the cookie crumbles. This would be a plea bargain case... if the DA allowed it.

3/24/2012 2:21:08 AM

You're missing the point.

Of those 6, only the two in favor of Zimmermann actually saw the fight.

The others only heard it, or saw what happened after the gunshot.

Nobody saw who started the fight.

3/24/2012 2:36:08 AM

too late guys. he's already been sentenced to death no matter the outcome:




unless he's miraculously proven innocent with detailed video to calm the riots forming. lol.


it would have been funny if zimmerman was a sand jockey.

the media would have no clue what to do.

[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 2:48 AM. Reason : -]

3/24/2012 2:37:22 AM

Quote :

"Note the caller says they are "behind" her house. Looking at the map, you can only get there by foot. Zimmerman clearly pursued Trayvon back there."

If this is true it must clearly be because the hulking football player drug him back there to beat him. It is pretty obvious that there are some inconsistencies with Zimmerman's account of what went on. WHEN SOMEONE IS SHOT I would hope that inconsistencies like that would be enough to get the shooter at least arrested initially.

3/24/2012 8:45:11 AM

Quote :

"Last time I checked, at least under our system, when you kill someone, you get arrested, questioned, and possibly charged. Why didn't that happen here?"

Assuming that the cops aren't purposefully ignoring their job (which is possible), it may they don't believe they have enough evidence to hold him. It's my understanding that the police have to build their case against you before they arrest you. They can't arrest you and hold you while they investigate (baring the 24/48 hour hold).

Quote :

"Most States (not sure about Florida) require you to actually witness the crime, for the record."

Are you sure? That would seem to argue that if you see a man running down the street with a purse and the little old lady running behind him screaming "stop him he took my purse" that you legally wouldn't be allowed to intervene. Most states usually use "reasonable person" language in their self defense statutes.

Quote :

"Secondly, he was a six-foot football player who mounted and pummeled a man on the ground who was no match for him. That's a lethal threat, and can be met with lethal force."

Only if Zimmerman was not the aggressor in fight and didn't escalate it. We don't know that yet.

Quote :

"No way that Martin felt threatened by Zimmerman's legal stalking and was himself acting in self-defense. "

Legally, you can't assault someone for following you on the street, just like you can't assault someone for looking at you funny. You can stop, and tell them to stop following you, and you can warn them that if they continue to approach you will defend yourself. At that point usually, if they continue to advance you are then defending yourself. This whole case boils down to what happened to start the physical altercation.

Quote :

"how he manage to unholster his gun, disengage the safety, aim, and shoot and kill Trayvon with 1 maybe 2 bullets?"

1) Not every holster is a retention holster, most CC holsters are designed for easy release.
2) Not every gun has a manual safety that needs to be disengaged. Glocks don't, Springfield XDs don't, revolvers don't and many DAO pistols don't. Not everyone who has a gun with a safety carries with the safety on (Condition 0 for the 1911 guys).

Quote :

"It doesn't say anything about Trayvon assaulting."

Sure it does: "when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass"

Quote :

"He's well trained enough to shoot martin, but not well trained enough to beat him up? "

Most people don't have any training for hand to hand combat. Draw and fire training is much easier to come by.

Quote :

"We're past the "show the evidence" stage. He shot the guy."

That's arguably not enough, they need evidence that a crime was committed, and shooting in self defense isn't a crime. That said, I do agree that the circumstances seem to more indicate that this was not self defense (from the standpoint of Zimmerman not being the aggressor).

Quote :

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not then the prosecution's job to prove it was in self-defense. In the absence of the defense, he's already shown to be guilty. He shot the guy."

No they have to prove it wasn't self defense.

Quote :

"follows this kid despite requests by dispatchers not to,"

By the way, I keep seeing this. The dispatcher is a) required to tell people to take the safest course of action and b) has no legal authority or weight in ordering you to do or not do something.

All of that said, the circumstantial evidence very much suggests this wasn't self defense. The entire premise of self defense hinges on the few moments before the altercation starts and who threw the first punch.

3/24/2012 9:15:36 AM

Quote :

"All of that said, the circumstantial evidence very much suggests this wasn't self defense. "

Which means... He probably should have been arrested. Someone was killed here.

Quote :

"(baring the 24/48 hour hold)."

Why was that not used here? It seems like the police simply let the shooter go. If it wasn't self defense wouldn't this give him the opportunity to tamper and find "witnesses"?

[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 9:31 AM. Reason : asdf]

3/24/2012 9:27:27 AM

Quote :

"Of those 6, only the two in favor of Zimmermann actually saw the fight. The others only heard it, or saw what happened after the gunshot."

Dubious - One person saw Zimmerman on top.

This contradicts John's testimony, if John's testimony doesn't change. You don't have to have eye-witnesses in order to convict someone. Plus, you can't take the different accounts and just make them work with everything following the John & Zimmerman chain of events. We know they don't match up. So does the account of every random neighbor who heard it match up with the girlfriend, so on and so fourth? I think there's at least one story that's consistent through all the accounts.

And again, there's the chance that the jury accepts Zimmerman's story and still convicts him. It could still go either way.

Quote :

"All of that said, the circumstantial evidence very much suggests this wasn't self defense."

Except the evidence that says the otherwise. Evidence contradicts in this case. But the cops on the scene didn't know that.

The cops on the scene ignored witnesses and their case for self-defense was Zimmerman's word and maybe "John" (although we don't know). If the cops had questioned the people around there with more than 2 questions it would have been a different story. You know the witnesses went to the media because they felt ignored by the police department?

The cops didn't just fail to arrest him that night. It's been the better part of a month and still no arrest. How do you explain that? Incompetence is no longer an excuse when it's reached the higher levels and you already have a police chief temporarily stepping down. Plus, at this stage it's not for the cops to determine anyway. They go to a court to get a warrant. The court decides if the evidence is enough.

Why the fuck haven't they don't that?

[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 12:19 PM. Reason : ]

3/24/2012 12:08:56 PM

Quote :

" A lawyer for the man at the center of the Trayvon Martin death investigation said Florida's "stand your ground" law doesn't apply to the shooting that killed the unarmed teen. "In my legal opinion, that's not really applicable to this case. The statute on 'stand your ground' is primarily when you're in your house," said Craig Sonner, attorney for George Zimmerman."

Quote :

"The 2005 law allows people to use deadly force anywhere they have a right to be if they have reasonable fear an assailant could seriously harm them or someone else. It also eliminated a long-standing "duty to retreat" in the face of imminent harm, asserting that would-be crime victims have the right to "stand their ground" and "meet force with force" when attacked."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/24/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?iref=obnetwork

Am I understanding correctly that Zimmerman's own laywer is saying that the law that removes the duty to retreat doesn't apply here?

So.... Zimmerman should have retreated?

3/24/2012 12:16:59 PM

^ no, even if it's an open-and-shut case according to the defense's own lawyer, that's not enough to arrest him. They can't prove it wasn't self-defense.

3/24/2012 12:21:24 PM

Quote :

"Except the evidence that says the otherwise. Evidence contradicts in this case. But the cops on the scene didn't know that. The cops on the scene ignored witnesses and their case for self-defense was Zimmerman's word and maybe "John" (although we don't know). If the cops had questioned the people around there with more than 2 questions it would have been a different story. You know the witnesses went to the media because they felt ignored by the police department?"

The only thing released that contradicts this wasn't self desfense has been zimmermans word.

From the time Zimmerman first called the cops to when he murdered him, Martin travelled a fair distance. That isnt consistent with martin following Zimmerman. If martins girlfriends claim is real, thats even more damning for Zimmerman.

The police can't just detain him now, admitting they made a mistake, that probably opens them up to other liabilities.

What it boils down to is that Trayvon Martin is dead and no one can justify why his murderer is free.

[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 12:42 PM. Reason : ]

3/24/2012 12:40:35 PM

Quote :

"The only thing released that contradicts this wasn't self desfense has been zimmermans word."

- The screaming on the 911 tapes
- The witnesses that saw Zimmerman on top
- The girlfriend's phone call
- Zimmerman's suspicious hang up before the purported altercation and the known shooting occurred

Are you so incapable of critical reasoning? These do not support Zimmerman's story.



Regarding the cries, "I know it was the little boy".

"I know this was not self-defense"

I mean holy shit you have to ignore a whole hell of a lot to say that nothing contradicts Zimmerman's claims of self-defense. And they have enough evidence to arrest him according to every legal expert I've heard on the case. Then the justice system will sort it out. So why are they still not arresting him?

You know, you can spin a case reeeeeal well when the cops are on your side.

3/24/2012 1:18:51 PM

I think you misread my post...

And what witness says Zimmerman was on top? None of the 911 calls indicate this.

3/24/2012 1:32:14 PM

This obviously could have been prevented if the kid had upheld is god given american right to carry a gun. He could have then blasted someone out to cause him bodily harm.

3/24/2012 1:41:01 PM

^ The voice of reason.

3/24/2012 1:53:35 PM

It's funny how having the weapon is what's protecting Zimmerman. If Zimmerman had murdered Trayvon with his hands, would there even be a question in this case?

3/24/2012 2:28:14 PM

The headline could be... " Man strangles teenager in secluded gated community"

3/24/2012 3:08:28 PM

Is my sarcasm being filtered by the internet?

3/24/2012 3:54:33 PM

^^ Well I think there would be. Particularly if Zimmerman himself was really

The thing about guns is that it allows you to make someone else without getting any yourself, so of course people are all about it, except for the conservatives who are all which make the liberals go , and then you get race involved and everyone's getting all

3/24/2012 3:55:11 PM

is my sarcasm being filtered by the internet?

3/24/2012 4:05:14 PM

Except for Trayvon's family's attorney, who is all

3/24/2012 4:08:13 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/24/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

3/24/2012 4:35:24 PM

Quote :

"Regarding the cries, "I know it was the little boy". "

yet the boys father says it isnt his son's voice.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

Duke Lacrosse part 2? (as far as the media pimping a story without waiting for the facts, and the race baiters)

3/24/2012 6:20:49 PM

But one man's testimony could be key for the police.

"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.

Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.

3/24/2012 6:21:01 PM

I think it's been believed for a while that it was zimmermans voice, not sure why this seems new or helps Zimmerman at all?

He was able to pretty clearly shout help and pull a gun while supposedly being beaten to within an inch of his life?

Lol at duke lacrosse comparisons though, here are the similarities:

3/24/2012 7:35:35 PM