Quote :

"And of course, with this, you are shutting out a huge portion of society from the opportunity to get an education that could potentially lift them out of their socio-economic class."

On the other hand, the change in how college is financed would also help eliminate the new socio-economic class that the college bubble has created, that of the college grad with tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars of student debt, no way to discharge the debt, and a job working part time at star bucks. I mean hell, just take a walk through a job site and look at how many postings want a 4 year degree for a job that pays ~$10 / hour. Assuming you had all your other expenses paid and you only borrowed tuition, and you graduated in 4 years without any summer courses, and there are no tuition increases in the next 4 years, you'll be roughly 24k in debt as an in state student or 60k in debt as an out of state student. Per here http://mappingyourfuture.org/paying/standardcalculator.htm at current interest rates, that means you'll be paying ~$275 - ~$700 / month for the next 10 years of your life. All that so that you can get a job as a secretary.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying college is useless or that people shouldn't go, but as a society we have put far too much emphasis on college as "The One True Way" without doing any cost / benefit analysis on that. There are plenty of people out there for whom college is a bad idea, or for whom college isn't what they should do first thing out of high school, but we shovel these students on anyway, completely unprepared (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-09-15-Colleges-remedialclasses_N.htm) and completely without aim, goal or real benefit (other than they now have a degree, and add to degree inflation). Look at it this way, I agree that these for profit degree mills are mostly sketchy rip-offs, and yet, I view them as a symptom of a larger problem. It wouldn't be profitable to run a rip-off degree mill if everybody and their dog didn't think they needed a college degree just to get by in life.

Quote :

"C'mon. How many people saw their bank get absorbed by another bank within the past 4 years alone? "

I did, and I took my money out of the bank and took it somewhere else. Amazing how that works.

Quote :

"Everyone seems to have accepted the biggest change he wants to make: for higher education to be about job creation. It's not and shouldn't be."

I agree, it shouldn't be about job creation. Unfortunately, our nation wide worship of college as a magic bullet has made it so that college must be about jobs and job creation, because that's the only reason most people go.

1/30/2013 9:54:07 AM

Quote :

"And of course, with this, you are shutting out a huge portion of society from the opportunity to get an education that could potentially lift them out of their socio-economic class. You and I both know who would suffer from this, and it ain't the "college bruh" you're thinking about."

You have a choice between filling bankers' pockets and "potentially" lifting people out of their socio-economic class...or, in the more likely scenario, bestowing them with crippling debt. Whose side are you on again?

***Shit unrelated to this thread below***

Quote :

"C'mon. How many people saw their bank get absorbed by another bank within the past 4 years alone?"

How many people are forced to keep their money at that absorbed bank?

Quote :

"That's funny, because when it comes to the power of the state, you absolutely hate it and advocate breaking it down. You get on your soapbox and speak about the dangers of concentrated power, and sound like a revolutionary, ready to speak truth to power and challenge the establishment. But once someone whispers in your ear, "hey, if we get rid of the state, then private interests can come in and make a profit doing this" you become all:"

You skim over the part where I say I have a problem with the initiation of force. I don't care who is doing it, I say it's wrong, and government doesn't exist without using violence. On the other hand, business transactions do not require violence. Again: I'm not against hierarchies, "establishments", or "the elite", I'm against violence and anyone that uses it to get what they want.

Quote :

"There are towns that are food deserts, where the only source of fresh food is at a Wal Mart. Not only that, but Wal Mart is the largest employer in the United States (and they pay dirt-cheap, and half of their employees qualify for food stamps and medicaid---which means you are subsidizing the wealth of the Walton family, by the way)."

So what you're saying is that Wal-Mart provided these people with food and jobs when no one else would.

No, I don't think we would have company towns. The government has done nothing specifically to "crack down" on Wal-Marts growth, if anything they've encouraged it, and they still have plenty of profitable competition. Over time, with more and more products available, more niche markets crop up, and it becomes harder for one player to take over the market.

Quote :

"There are plenty of people in this thread who would like to speak about divorcing corporate and state power."

Why don't we break this down into simpler terms? Take away loaded phrases like "corporate" and "state" and "power". There are just people and two distinct groups. There are the people without power, like us. In our personal lives, we accept that violence is wrong and should never be used except in cases of self defense. Every decent person abides by this. We understand that if we want something, we don't just go beat someone up and take it, we negotiate.

Then, there is the group of people with power. These people commonly use violence to get what they want. Not only do they use violence, but they have convinced the vast majority of the population that their use of violence is actually legitimate. With this group, morality is turned on its head. What would be considered sociopathic and abusive behavior in the home becomes virtuous and compassionate when this "tier" of humanity does it.

I want to remove this distinction and apply the same criteria across the board. If you can understand that, then you understand my position. It's not about raging against the "establishment", becoming a "revolutionary", any of that childish, naive bullshit.

***End of unrelated shit***

Quote :

"Everyone seems to have accepted the biggest change he wants to make: for higher education to be about job creation. It's not and shouldn't be."

What exactly should it be for?

[Edited on January 30, 2013 at 10:32 AM. Reason : ]

1/30/2013 10:31:21 AM

ending the use of violence by entities to establish their dominance: not naive

1/30/2013 10:34:26 AM

Quote :

"What exactly should it be for?"

I think the constitutional justification is a start, to provide free benefits to the people of the state

1/30/2013 10:58:44 AM

No, I'm not asking about the justification, as stupid as that one is. I'm asking what you think the aim of higher education should be.

1/30/2013 11:21:07 AM

research, academics, enlightenment, discovery, the creation of new ideas and products, a place for people with ideas to explore them without the constraints of market motivations, etc...

and in the issue of public state universities specifically, also to benefit the people of the state.

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/legislation/constitution/ncconstitution.html

Quote :

" Sec. 8. Higher education. The General Assembly shall maintain a public system of higher education, comprising The University of North Carolina and such other institutions of higher education as the General Assembly may deem wise. The General Assembly shall provide for the selection of trustees of The University of North Carolina and of the other institutions of higher education, in whom shall be vested all the privileges, rights, franchises, and endowments heretofore granted to or conferred upon the trustees of these institutions. The General Assembly may enact laws necessary and expedient for the maintenance and management of The University of North Carolina and the other public institutions of higher education. Sec. 9. Benefits of public institutions of higher education. The General Assembly shall provide that the benefits of The University of North Carolina and other public institutions of higher education, as far as practicable, be extended to the people of the State free of expense."

http://www.northcarolina.edu/about/mission.htm

Quote :

"Statement of Mission The University of North Carolina is a public, multi-campus university dedicated to the service of North Carolina and its people. It encompasses the 16 diverse constituent institutions and other educational, research, and public service organizations. Each shares in the overall mission of the University. That mission is to discover, create, transmit, and apply knowledge to address the needs of individuals and society. This mission is accomplished through instruction, which communicates the knowledge and values and imparts the skills necessary for individuals to lead responsible, productive, and personally satisfying lives; through research, scholarship, and creative activities, which advance knowledge and enhance the educational process; and through public service, which contributes to the solution of societal problems and enriches the quality of life in the State. In the fulfillment of this mission, the University shall seek an efficient use of available resources to ensure the highest quality in its service to the citizens of the State. Teaching and learning constitute the primary service that the University renders to society. Teaching, or instruction, is the primary responsibility of each of the constituent institutions. The relative importance of research and public service, which enhance teaching and learning, varies among the constituent institutions, depending on their overall missions. "

[Edited on January 30, 2013 at 11:28 AM. Reason : .]

1/30/2013 11:27:35 AM

Quote :

"which communicates the knowledge and values and imparts the skills necessary for individuals to lead responsible, productive, and personally satisfying lives; through research, scholarship, and creative activities, which advance knowledge and enhance the educational process; and through public service, which contributes to the solution of societal problems and enriches the quality of life in the State."

If students arent going to uphold their end of the bargain why should the State?

We've elected a State government now that will either trim the fat or give them an "out" from this contract.

(you can have an education that doesnt contribute but we arent paying for it, etc)

1/30/2013 12:18:21 PM

Quote :

"Assuming you had all your other expenses paid and you only borrowed tuition, and you graduated in 4 years without any summer courses, and there are no tuition increases in the next 4 years, you'll be roughly 24k in debt as an in state student or 60k in debt as an out of state student. Per here http://mappingyourfuture.org/paying/standardcalculator.htm at current interest rates, that means you'll be paying ~$275 - ~$700 / month for the next 10 years of your life. All that so that you can get a job as a secretary."

Or, you could look at it like this: You pretty much have to have a college degree to live a middle class existence in this country, which makes our generation one of the first generations that were forced to go into debt in order to receive the level of education needed to live a middle class lifestyle. The days when you could get a free high school education and a comfortable salary at the factory are gone.

Quote :

"How many people are forced to keep their money at that absorbed bank?"

Seriously? Look at the bank consolidation that occurred the past 4 years. Yeah, you can shuffle it to another bank that operates on the same basic premises of your former bank, but what difference does it make? You can't exactly keep all your money under your mattress if you're paying a mortgage, can you?

Quote :

"You skim over the part where I say I have a problem with the initiation of force."

So let me get this straight. As long as physical force is not exerted, coercion is totally acceptable? Man, what a weak moral loophole you've provided. Gaining power by forcing compliance by other means is totally fine, so long as you don't physically hurt someone?

Quote :

"So what you're saying is that Wal-Mart provided these people with food and jobs when no one else would."

No, I'm saying Wal Mart came in and put all the existing stores out of business. That's how monopolies monopolize.

Quote :

"The government has done nothing specifically to "crack down" on Wal-Marts growth, if anything they've encouraged it"

Yeah, you're right. And I'm against that, too.

Quote :

"Over time, with more and more products available, more niche markets crop up, and it becomes harder for one player to take over the market."

Except that's not true. Instead, a company like Wal Mart just expands and continues to absorb all those other players in the market, which is exactly what they have done over the years. Expanding from just consumer goods to food markets, adding departments, etc.

Quote :

"It's not about raging against the "establishment", becoming a "revolutionary", any of that childish, naive bullshit."

How in the hell is it not naive to think that corporations are going to be benevolent if given the opportunity? Any entity, when allowed to amass centralized power, acts in its own self-interests at the expense of others. You understand this intimately as it pertains to state power. But somehow you're completely incapable of applying this same logic to private power. The only distinction I can make is that corporations gain power and enforce their will via coercion and deceit rather than direct force, which apparently is enough to get you to look the other way. You argue, "well, nobody is forcing you to do activity X," but often abstaining from activity X requires one to complete remove ones self from society.

Seriously, I don't get it.


I understand your innate desire to break down government power. I hear you. Hell, I'd even join. They've grown big enough to abuse civil liberties and have become reckless in their foreign affairs. But I also have the same desire to break down central private power as well, and apparently that's where our ideas diverge.



[Edited on January 30, 2013 at 12:36 PM. Reason : ]

1/30/2013 12:22:33 PM

Quote :

"If students arent going to uphold their end of the bargain why should the State?"

what's the part you claim doesn't uphold their (students) part of the bargain, I want to make sure I respond appropriately to your point


[Edited on January 30, 2013 at 12:55 PM. Reason : (I'm happy to ignore, for the purpose of discussion, that its not a two part bargain its a mission s]

1/30/2013 12:54:47 PM

Quote :

"You pretty much have to have a college degree to live a middle class existence in this country, which makes our generation one of the first generations that were forced to go into debt in order to receive the level of education needed to live a middle class lifestyle. The days when you could get a free high school education and a comfortable salary at the factory are gone."

But not because the jobs that provide a middle class lifestyle require (in an actual needed to do your job sense) a college degree, that's my point. You don't need a 4 year degree at a university to do most middle class jobs. Most of what you'll be doing you learned in high school, and the rest you could get easier and cheaper with on the job training.

Quote :

" You can't exactly keep all your money under your mattress if you're paying a mortgage, can you?"

Actually, these days with <0.5% interest, you're probably better off keeping the cash on hand...

Quote :

"No, I'm saying Wal Mart came in and put all the existing stores out of business. That's how monopolies monopolize. "

And who held a gun to the customer's heads and forced them to shop at wal-mart? Who coerced the poor innocent townsfolk into buying their stuff from wal-mart when what they really wanted was to go to Mom and Pop's Used Clothing and Oil Change shop?

1/30/2013 12:57:10 PM

Every thread in TSB is Walmart.

1/30/2013 1:08:18 PM

Quote :

"You don't need a 4 year degree at a university to do most middle class jobs"

Then why would employers demand them when they require a (be it slightly) larger wage? Perhaps employers know more about what their jobs require than you do?

1/30/2013 2:19:16 PM

Many employers need arbitrary metrics for which of the thousands of resumes they get for every opening immediately into the trash just so they can get the stack to a manageable size

1/30/2013 2:21:56 PM

Sorry, meant to say:

Many employers need arbitrary metrics to determine which of the thousands of resumes they get for every opening will immediately go into the trash just so they can get the stack to a manageable size

The phrasing was unclear but I can't edit now

1/30/2013 3:06:32 PM

"McCrory education board appointments"

http://www.wral.com/mccrory-education-board-appointments/12044232/

Quote :

"Rebecca H. Taylor, the owner of Sylvan Learning Centers franchises in the Greenville area. Gregory M. Alcorn, CEO and owner of Global Contact Services in Salisbury. William W. Cobey Jr., a former North Carolina Republican Party chairman and the vice chairman of the Jesse Helms Center in Wingate. "

I don't know a lot about these folks, but from the description there it doesn't sound like the people given power over our public schools have a lot of experience with public schools. On the other hand, some of them may stand to profit as public schools fail and public money heads to private and corporate alternatives.

1/30/2013 3:24:31 PM

Quote :

"Then why would employers demand them when they require a (be it slightly) larger wage? Perhaps employers know more about what their jobs require than you do?"

Pretty much what actionpants said, it's used as a filter by HR to reduce the applicant pool. You can find evidence for this just by looking at how many jobs don't even specify what you need to have a degree in, you just need a degree. Also, as mentioned earlier, because as a country we've become so focused on degrees, college has become about job training, which means employers are looking to offload what used to be on the job training to the colleges.

1/30/2013 4:04:32 PM

Strategy: Rename Liberal Arts to Conservative Arts

1/30/2013 4:46:46 PM

^^^Because the people from the education system that have been in charge have been doing so much better, and would never see any financial gain from more money going to schools either. Hell, maybe these people could bring some new ideas with them.

1/30/2013 4:47:47 PM

Quote :

"vice chairman of the Jesse Helms Center in Wingate"

Yeah, TONS of new ideas are likely to manifest from this place.......

1/30/2013 5:23:37 PM

Quote :

"And who held a gun to the customer's heads and forced them to shop at wal-mart?"

The market?

1/30/2013 5:38:11 PM

Quote :

"I don't know a lot about these folks, but from the description there it doesn't sound like the people given power over our public schools have a lot of experience with public schools. On the other hand, some of them may stand to profit as public schools fail and public money heads to private and corporate alternatives."

Blatant cronyism and political donor pandering, yay

1/30/2013 5:59:21 PM

Quote :

"The market?"

Wal-marts don't spring fully formed from the earth and instantly put every mom and pop for 20 miles out of business. The fact is, they move into an area and provide something that the people in the area want. If mom and pop stores go out of business, it's because their customers abandon them.

1/30/2013 10:41:52 PM

Lets get rid of physical education classes also. Those jobs are also hard to come by, and really, who needs to live past retirement age anyway? Once you are done oiling the gears of capitalism with your blood, it's time to die.

1/30/2013 10:46:32 PM

^^
So... the market.

1/30/2013 11:36:35 PM

Quote :

"Many employers need arbitrary metrics to determine which of the thousands of resumes they get for every opening will immediately go into the trash just so they can get the stack to a manageable size"

Quote :

"Pretty much what actionpants said, it's used as a filter by HR to reduce the applicant pool. You can find evidence for this just by looking at how many jobs don't even specify what you need to have a degree in, you just need a degree."

That doesn't respond to what I said. We said that employers demand college degrees for most middle class jobs, this neccesitates that they filter out applicants without college degrees, so I don't know what point you're trying to make.

Are you saying that they don't need them they just require them? If so that's the exact same thing you said previously, and my argument would still stand that you seem to think you know more about what a job requires than the employer hiring for it, which is silly.

1/31/2013 9:07:30 AM

get a real degree hippies. I agree with more STEM money, majors, and jobs.

1/31/2013 9:12:48 AM

Quote :

"get a real degree hippies. I agree with more STEM money, majors, and jobs."

Please make more posts in the soap box stating what you do or don't agree with, without any argument. Everyone enjoys reading them.

1/31/2013 9:32:54 AM

Quote :

"Are you saying that they don't need them they just require them? If so that's the exact same thing you said previously, and my argument would still stand that you seem to think you know more about what a job requires than the employer hiring for it, which is silly."

Requiring a college degree for a secretary position involving answering phones and doing basic word processing has nothing to do with what the job requires and everything to do with weeding out the applicant pool. If you put that up on Monster.com, in this job market, you'll get a ton of applications from people who have college degrees and people who don't have college degrees but can answer phones. Of those, you can make a general assumption that the people with college degrees are at least able to get through four years college classes. That doesn't mean they're smart or well suited for the job. But at least they did something and the people with only a high school diploma didn't.

1/31/2013 9:35:18 AM

How many secretaries have you hired? I don't really intend to argue in the land of make-believe about the make believe applicant pool for a make believe position for a make believe employer.

1/31/2013 9:57:12 AM

No, I haven't hired secretaries. Obviously it's impossible to know anything about anything unless you've actually done it.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/04/degree-inflation-jobs-that-newly-require-b-a-s/

Quote :

"At the very least it seems as if more employers are using bachelor’s degrees as a signal of drive or talent, regardless of of the relevance of the skills actually learned in college. That is one implication of an analysis from Burning Glass, a company that analyzes job ads from over 20,000 online sources ranging from major job boards to small and midsize employer sites. The company’s chief executive, Matthew Sigelman, says that employers are increasingly requiring college degrees for positions that did not traditionally require higher education."

Some jobs have changed and may require degrees where they didn't before. Others haven't. Disagree if you want, I guess.

1/31/2013 10:15:31 AM

Quote :

"No, I haven't hired secretaries. Obviously it's impossible to know anything about anything unless you've actually done it."

Considering you are claiming to know how many applicants apply, what their qualifications are, what the job is, what it requires, what the college education gives or doesn't give them, I'd say it's quite likely that one or all of those things that you are completely making up could be wrong.

Quote :

"Some jobs have changed and may require degrees where they didn't before."

Maybe the requirements of the job has changed. There is some cost to hiring 4 year degrees over others, and obviously employers believe that what they get from that cost is worth it.

1/31/2013 10:29:21 AM

What is the cost?

1/31/2013 10:30:35 AM

I'm not going to make one up, but there is some level of scarcity to college educated labor, additionally you've noted that there is a higher demand. Scarcity and demand cause prices to go up.

1/31/2013 10:48:22 AM

How is there scarcity when ~35% of recent college grads are unemployed? There are plenty of people with degrees who are having to take what they can get.

1/31/2013 10:51:32 AM

Quote :

"How is there scarcity"

Only 30% of americans have 4 year degrees.

1/31/2013 11:11:16 AM

Mentioning jobs is a distraction from the real issue, and you all took the bait

1/31/2013 11:11:56 AM

another grade A post!

it's so great we have you to act as discussion police to tell us what we should and shouldn't talk about!

you deserve an award!

1/31/2013 12:54:26 PM

Quote :

"Maybe the requirements of the job has changed. There is some cost to hiring 4 year degrees over others, and obviously employers believe that what they get from that cost is worth it."

Not necessarily. I've come across plenty of grunt work field jobs that require a CE degree and pay $9-15 an hour. A friend of mine is in one. How many applicants do you think other companies pass over, even though they don't specifically require it?

It's an easy method of weeding people out. There is a surplus of college degrees.

1/31/2013 1:38:08 PM

You should use data to back up your claims rather than "I know a guy". Here is the unemployment rates based on education:

Less than a high school diploma
Unemployment rate
11.7 
 
High school graduates, no college(1)
Unemployment rate
8.0 
 
Some college or associate degree 
Unemployment rate
6.9 
 
Bachelor's degree and higher(2)
Unemployment rate
3.9 

1/31/2013 1:57:55 PM

You're talking about unemployment rates.

In regards to college grads, you should be using underemployment rates.

1/31/2013 2:18:52 PM

For the "too many degrees in basketweaving" theory to be true, I'd expect that sector-by-sector unemployment changes since before the recession would show some clear patterns.



Huh, that's weird, it's almost as though there's no statistically significant sign of a structural shift, and this is just another Republican scapegoat for a demand-side crisis, a particularly attractive one because it attacks "liberal" degrees like the arts and humanities. Companies aren't refusing to hire because everyone has English degrees, it's because demand is depressed and there's no point in expanding production if nobody's buying your shit.

Quote :

"In regards to college grads, you should be using underemployment rates."

This is a red herring, the two move basically in tandem, the gap widening during recessions each and every time.




[Edited on January 31, 2013 at 2:56 PM. Reason : .]

1/31/2013 2:52:02 PM

Quote :

"You're talking about unemployment rates. In regards to college grads, you should be using underemployment rates."

I used the seasonally adjusted rates, additionally underemployment trends should be reflected in labor participation rates which are in the statistics I linked to.

1/31/2013 3:10:56 PM

Quote :

"You should use data to back up your claims rather than "I know a guy""

Well don't ask for an anecdote if you don't want one.

Underemployment is not an indicator for what we're talking about. It doesn't take into account people who are employed in full-time jobs they are overqualified for or jobs unrelated to their degree.

Quote :

"Underemployment includes three classifications of persons -unemployed workers who are actively looking for work, involuntarily part-time workers who want full-time work but have had to settle for part-time hours, and marginally attached workers who want and are available for a job, but are not actively looking. Together, they provide a more comprehensive measure of slack in the labor market."

[Edited on January 31, 2013 at 3:52 PM. Reason : .]

1/31/2013 3:33:43 PM

Quote :

"This is a red herring, the two move basically in tandem, the gap widening during recessions each and every time."

Red herring? If you're trying to back up a point about the demand for college degrees at a given point in time (e.g. now), then you should be using the college grad underemployment rate, as defined by the percentage of college grads who are either unemployed or employed in a position where their grad degree is not a requirement. A college grad who has a job flipping burgers isn't an indication of demand for college degrees. Any correlation over time between those statistics is irrelevant to that point.

^^You're not making a statement about a seasonal trend. You're referencing a single data point: college grad unemployment was 3.9 % in Dec 2012.

1/31/2013 3:53:01 PM

Quote :

"It doesn't take into account people who are employed in full-time jobs they are overqualified for"

Well shit, most people think they're overqualified for their current job. It's the same as how most people think they are above average.

Quote :

"or jobs unrelated to their degree."

Four year colleges aren't trade schools.

Quote :

"If you're trying to back up a point about the demand for college degrees at a given point in time (e.g. now), then you should be using the college grad underemployment rate, as defined by the percentage of college grads who are either unemployed or employed in a position where their grad degree is not a requirement."

The reason it is a red herring is clearly shown in the graph. Underemployment tracks unemployment.

1/31/2013 7:24:18 PM

I'm sorry but when did college education become free at state sponsored schools in NC? Last time I checked you still have to pay for your courses, so it's not like students who pursue a lib arts degree are getting some mythical free ride at the taxpayers expense.

But that might be too rational of a thought.

1/31/2013 10:23:45 PM

A better question is when did universities become tax payer funded training programs for corporate political donors?

1/31/2013 10:25:57 PM

The mythical free ride at the taxpayer's expense was the student loan that landed them there in the first place.

This free ride continues when they graduate and can't find a job (welfare).

1/31/2013 10:34:11 PM

Quote :

"The reason it is a red herring is clearly shown in the graph. Underemployment tracks unemployment."

And like I said, the tracking is irrelevant. Did you read my post or just quote it?

15% "underemployment" is pretty high for an economy that "demands" college degrees.

1/31/2013 10:47:03 PM

People talk nationally about how we need to tackle the high student debt to attend university, and I think one way to do that is to prioritize financial aid to majors with sufficient job placement in that field. Leaving this to just UNC for example since McCrory talked about them and if a UNC person reads this post they won't say I'm being biased, wouldn't you rather help a premed student going into dental school with his bills than a kid that is getting a degree in French? Hey, if that person after he or she graduates get a job where French is the central focus like working in an embassy or moving to Quebec or being an interpreter, that's considered job placement and would be a positive. If he's scavenging around for a job and gets something in the service industry, the university education did not advance that person in life. There are so many majors that have no business being majors or they only create a very small niche group of jobs (e.g. Marine Biology).

Wouldn't kill liberal arts programs entirely though. If you want to study some major that has no placement, go right ahead, but it'd be understood you wouldn't get financial aid for that major. You would be admitting you're not going to university to improve yourself but instead just you're doing it as a hobby. If universities have an issue with that, then they need to be asked why they have such low placement percentages post-graduation.

Really have no issue with what McCrory said reading the quote.

And if you have an issue regarding job placement being a metric, you need to read up on the law school business the past 10 years and how there is this massive surplus of law school grads with no jobs to give them. Places are giving out degrees that have no business giving them out, and all you're left with are people with $100k in debt and no way to pay for it. If placement were tied to aid or at the very least publicized, a lot of these bullshit law schools would disappear and that'd be a good thing.

[Edited on January 31, 2013 at 11:10 PM. Reason : /]

1/31/2013 10:52:03 PM