dtownral Suspended 26632 Posts user info edit post |
[Edited on October 10, 2013 at 11:25 AM. Reason : third]
10/10/2013 11:13:01 AM |
dtownral Suspended 26632 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | " If anything, we need to be increasing thee monies for sports so that more people can participate. The biggest problem with high school sports is that you have to be good to play. Everyone doesn't have to be varsity but there should be as many levels of teams as there is student interest in a sport." |
but shouldn't funding academics be the priority? if we spent the time and praise on academics that we do athletics, why can students not learn some of those lessons from academics (as the journal article TerdFerguson posted suggested)
And why do we need expensive facilities and coaches to teach those lessons? At the very least, we should remove football since it is such an expensive sport. (And because it is dangerous)
[Edited on October 10, 2013 at 11:16 AM. Reason : .]10/10/2013 11:15:09 AM |
wdprice3 BinaryBuffonary 45912 Posts user info edit post |
someone is angry?] 10/10/2013 11:15:36 AM |
dtownral Suspended 26632 Posts user info edit post |
go away fatty, the adults are talking. I moved us to a new page so we could get past your juvenile simple-minded antics.
[Edited on October 10, 2013 at 11:17 AM. Reason : .] 10/10/2013 11:17:05 AM |
Smath74 All American 93278 Posts user info edit post |
people are not robots. some need additional incentive and support to succeed in school, which sports provides.
(even though this is clearly a troll thread) 10/10/2013 11:30:21 AM |
dtownral Suspended 26632 Posts user info edit post |
this is not a troll thread
why are high cost athletics the only things to fill that roll? and if only a minority of students are involved in athletics, why is that a worthwhile investment? 10/10/2013 11:39:27 AM |
adultswim Suspended 8379 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "why are high cost athletics the only things to fill that roll?" |
they aren't. everyone itt has agreed with you that we spend too much on it
Quote : | "and if only a minority of students are involved in athletics, why is that a worthwhile investment?" |
same reason as for band, service clubs, etc. the fact that it costs more money is not important. it's not an imperative that the same amount of money be spent on every child.10/10/2013 11:45:42 AM |
dtownral Suspended 26632 Posts user info edit post |
so if athletics are how to motivate students, then why are the south korean students in that article doing so much better without athletics? no one else has high school athletics like we do, and yet they motivate their students. 10/10/2013 12:06:52 PM |
adultswim Suspended 8379 Posts user info edit post |
what article? what are they doing better at?
sports are A way to motivate students. not THE way. i think you're being intentionally obtuse at this point
[Edited on October 10, 2013 at 12:11 PM. Reason : .] 10/10/2013 12:11:11 PM |
dtownral Suspended 26632 Posts user info edit post |
the one on the first page: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/10/the-case-against-high-school-sports/309447/
American high school students do not rank particularly well, so why do we need publicly funded athletics if other countries can do well without them?
I'm not the one being obtuse because I'm not the one claiming that we need publicly funded athletics
[Edited on October 10, 2013 at 12:15 PM. Reason : .] 10/10/2013 12:14:51 PM |
TerdFerguson All American 6600 Posts user info edit post |
also, I really think you need to consider cultural differences when comparing us with S. Korea, especially when it comes to education. Education just isn't the same type of priority in the US as it is in Korea, hell, there is a significant portion of our population that actively celebrates their ignorance and think its a family value.
I really hate using the "cultural differences" argument, since I think it gets thrown around way too often, but education is one of the few areas I think its legit. 10/10/2013 12:17:45 PM |
adultswim Suspended 8379 Posts user info edit post |
^^ are you aware of how hard students are worked in south korea? (12+ hours a day plus some weekends)
and the suicide problem?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_South_Korea
Quote : | "also, I really think you need to consider cultural differences when comparing us with S. Korea, especially when it comes to education." |
he's not that stupid. he's being obtuse.10/10/2013 12:22:31 PM |
dtownral Suspended 26632 Posts user info edit post |
of course i understand all that, and i'm saying our schools need to look more like that and less like athletic clubs
if you don't like South Korea, use any other example that you would like 10/10/2013 12:28:14 PM |
TerdFerguson All American 6600 Posts user info edit post |
well did you read the counter article to your OP?
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/high-school-sports-arent-killing-academics/280155/ 10/10/2013 12:51:25 PM |
adultswim Suspended 8379 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "our schools need to look more like that " |
childhood destroying drone factories?10/10/2013 12:55:24 PM |
dtownral Suspended 26632 Posts user info edit post |
they don't do well because of sports, they have strong sports for the same reason they do well academically (money and parental involvement). that is the conclusion they cite, and it supports my position.
[Edited on October 10, 2013 at 12:57 PM. Reason : ^yes] 10/10/2013 12:57:33 PM |
Bullet All American 28414 Posts user info edit post |
suicide machines?
[Edited on October 10, 2013 at 12:59 PM. Reason : is your position still to completely abolish athletics from public schools?] 10/10/2013 12:57:52 PM |
y0willy0 All American 7863 Posts user info edit post |
lets get rid of art and music too
[Edited on October 10, 2013 at 1:01 PM. Reason : and theater] 10/10/2013 1:01:05 PM |
dtownral Suspended 26632 Posts user info edit post |
are those things still well funded anywhere? 10/10/2013 1:04:27 PM |
y0willy0 All American 7863 Posts user info edit post |
who cares? theyre detracting from your definition of school. 10/10/2013 1:06:51 PM |
dtownral Suspended 26632 Posts user info edit post |
I'm talking about funding academics, I've clearly stated that inter-school sports wouldn't be an issue if they were privately funded. I also stated that PE and intramurals (as a catch phrase for cheap physical activity and competition) should continue to be part of the curriculum, just not expensive sports that only benefit a few students. I would apply those same criteria to the arts, but I'm not aware of anywhere that is using a lot of public money to fund flashy arts programs. I'd have an issue if they wanted to build an expensive auditorium and sound booth for a play. 10/10/2013 1:14:44 PM |
y0willy0 All American 7863 Posts user info edit post |
so make all schools private or charter.
got it.
how about you make a realistic thread or take a realistic stance for once? 10/10/2013 1:20:12 PM |
dtownral Suspended 26632 Posts user info edit post |
no, make schools about academics. make athletics private.
[Edited on October 10, 2013 at 1:24 PM. Reason : .] 10/10/2013 1:23:57 PM |
Bullet All American 28414 Posts user info edit post |
most everyone in this thread has somewhat agreed with you to some degree 10/10/2013 1:29:50 PM |
adultswim Suspended 8379 Posts user info edit post |
^^ why? you still haven't given a decent reason other than "they cost too much". fine. give them less money. we don't need big stadiums or fancy uniforms.
should we also do away with school counselors? school lunches? busses? none of these have anything to do with academics, but they are tools to help children succeed.
school is not only about learning 2+2
[Edited on October 10, 2013 at 1:32 PM. Reason : .] 10/10/2013 1:32:33 PM |
y0willy0 All American 7863 Posts user info edit post |
sports are the reason american students are 30th (or whatever) in the world when it comes to smartness. 10/10/2013 1:44:23 PM |
lewisje All American 9196 Posts user info edit post |
^^but it shouldn't be at all about learning to beat the shit out of weaker kids for fame and glory 10/10/2013 1:55:18 PM |
adultswim Suspended 8379 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "^^but it shouldn't be at all about learning to beat the shit out of weaker kids for fame and glory" |
that isn't what sports are though10/10/2013 1:57:30 PM |
lewisje All American 9196 Posts user info edit post |
it's how I saw them as a kid
on the playground
or at least the kids who played sports 10/10/2013 2:09:02 PM |
Bullet All American 28414 Posts user info edit post |
if you had tried to play sports, it might have made you tougher, both physically and mentally. j/k, kinda
but seriously, that's a pretty generic statement. sports are not about learning to beat the shit out of weaker kids. it's been mentioned multiple times the positive aspects of kids playing sports
[Edited on October 10, 2013 at 2:13 PM. Reason : ] 10/10/2013 2:12:32 PM |
afripino All American 11425 Posts user info edit post |
do you take into account the fact that these facilities are also used for things other than athletics? e.g. assemblies, pep rallys, stage performances, PE classes, etc.? perhaps their multi-use case is what justifies their funding. 10/10/2013 2:28:04 PM |
lewisje All American 9196 Posts user info edit post |
pep rallies are a joke too, so are most assemblies
anyway I've always seen that stuff done in a gymnasium or auditorium, not a stadium 10/10/2013 2:31:54 PM |
Fry The Stubby 7784 Posts user info edit post |
lot of childhood issues ITT.
moderation, people.. there's a middle ground on this 10/10/2013 2:40:23 PM |
adultswim Suspended 8379 Posts user info edit post |
pep rallies are ridiculous 10/10/2013 2:40:25 PM |
Boone All American 5237 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "moderation, people.. there's a middle ground on this" |
I'm not sure that there is.
I think all the negative outcomes that result from school-sponsored athletics are inherent to *any* level of school sponsorship.10/10/2013 9:32:58 PM |
The E Man Suspended 15268 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "why can students not learn some of those lessons from academics" | It is not practicle. Academics gives you knowledge, skills and teaches you how to think but does not give you the real world experience that sports does. Sports is the real world. Its not a theory in the textbook, its not a word problem, its the real thing.
Quote : | "And why do we need expensive facilities and coaches to teach those lessons? At the very least, we should remove football since it is such an expensive sport. (And because it is dangerous)" |
Football is our national sport and is so entrenched in the culture that people will stay interested in it. Would be cool if we did soccer instead but that is a cultural thing at this point. You want kids to be able to love what they are learning and learn what they love. It creates a freindly environment for the brain.
Big stadiums allow the kids to perform in front of the entire town which means they will learn more because they will take it more seriously if its actually a big deal. I know only 1 person is going to see my math problem set so who cares if I blow it off.
Quote : | "then why are the south korean students in that article doing so much better without athletics?" |
Are they? Has there been research how well korean students can work on a team with people from other races, backgrounds and religions to achieve a common goal in a fast-pace, highly competitive environment?
Quote : | "American high school students do not rank particularly well, so why do we need publicly funded athletics if other countries can do well without them?" |
Your first assumption is that public funding of athletics is somehow hurting our rank or not affecting it when it is proven fact that athletics is BOOSTING our rank. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aP2ohu8Tjoas https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpsych.hanover.edu%2Fresearch%2Fthesis04%2FBartling.ppt&ei=Xl5XUszrHcX1iQKHk4CwCA&usg=AFQjCNG68s39rhyCTBtUJceNRJtVZ0fGug&sig2=jR3HchRx10pZfE_qpqYcFg&bvm=bv.53899372,d.cGE
Our rank would be much lower without athletics because it is the students with no outlet who perform poorly in school and sports gives students skills and confidence to succeed in all walks of life.
Quote : | "I'm talking about funding academics, I've clearly stated that inter-school sports wouldn't be an issue if they were privately funded. I also stated that PE and intramural (as a catch phrase for cheap physical activity and competition) should continue to be part of the curriculum, just not expensive sports that only benefit a few students. " |
You need to make up your mind what you are actually arguing because you have somewhat conflicting arguements
1. You say too much sports is hurting our students scores (i know its wrong but its your claim) 2. You say that this would all improve if funding came privately 3. privately funded athletics would somehow enhance student learning simply because the money is coming from somewhere else.
It seems you just want to keep poor kids from learning by making athletics unaffordable for them.10/10/2013 10:18:29 PM |
lewisje All American 9196 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "Sports is the real world. Its not a theory in the textbook" | the hurr is strong with this one
it sounds like you think that what kids learn in school has no connection to reality
it's like you're a rethug10/11/2013 5:41:56 AM |
afripino All American 11425 Posts user info edit post |
I do agree that sports are a "real life" competition. You can't get that level of real time competitiveness elsewhere. You can't fake your way through it. You practice, prepare, and perform when it matters. There is an academic aspect to sports as well. 10/11/2013 7:48:45 AM |
Smath74 All American 93278 Posts user info edit post |
Sports are a real industry with real dollars associated with them. Schools would be skirting their responsibility if they didn't include sports opportunities... and it's more than just athletes... schools have managers, statisticians, event planners, sports med first responders, and a host of other things that involve the whole community. In fact, I can't think of anything else that brings such a multi-disciplinary group of people together to use their skills and learn to work together. 10/11/2013 7:59:09 AM |
dtownral Suspended 26632 Posts user info edit post |
the sports industry is tiny compared to other possible industries, for example the tech industry. so we should start kids coding and using technology, or being involved in any other larger industry, before sports. create a sports magnet center if you want, but it shouldn't be in every school taking away money from better prospects and more important things. 10/11/2013 8:52:33 AM |
skywalkr All American 6788 Posts user info edit post |
Our school had sports AND computer science. Shocking I know, we didn't just play sports all day. I also took things like calculus, art, Spanish, shop, web design, history, etc.
We also had a fuck ton of fund raisers for the various sports teams to help develop the facilities. We also volunteered our time to work on the fields.
Shockingly, you still make no valid argument. 10/11/2013 10:31:13 AM |
Sayer now with sarcasm 9841 Posts user info edit post |
With very little research into the topic/thread, I'd take an educated guess that football is the biggest line item on most count school system budgets when it comes to sports.
Part of this issue will solve itself in time; publicly financed football from the High School level down will face increasing pressure and eventual disbandment, if it's not substantially altered from what we currently know.
This will happen b/c of the insurance liability and injury risks associated with participants. As more information disseminates to the public about the serious, long-term health risks associated with football participation, one of two things will happen. Either legislation will be passed that prohibits parents from exposing their children to an activity that has serious long-term health impacts, or insurance to cover these activities will become too expensive to buy into. It will simply cost too much money for a public school system to insure it's football teams.
I'm not saying football itself will die, but I don't believe that tackle football as we know it will survive below the college level. Once someone reaches the age of 18, they are consenting adults, and they can knowingly put themselves into an activity with long-term health risks as well as sign away the liability. But under 18? Nope. Not on the public dime at least.
All that being said, the "life lessons" that people champion are not exclusive to sports. You can learn the same skills in academics as well as athletics.
Personally, I believe school should be about academics, not athletics or extra-curricular activities. Athletics, arts, etc should be entered into and financed outside the school system, either by the individual participants or through sponsorship of private money. 10/11/2013 10:41:52 AM |
dtownral Suspended 26632 Posts user info edit post |
^^ you are missing the point completely 10/11/2013 11:17:32 AM |
skywalkr All American 6788 Posts user info edit post |
No, you aren't making a point worth noting 10/11/2013 11:50:15 AM |
dtownral Suspended 26632 Posts user info edit post |
wrong
you aren't 10/11/2013 12:48:24 PM |
Fry The Stubby 7784 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "Personally, I believe school should be about academics, not athletics or extra-curricular activities. Athletics, arts, etc should be entered into and financed outside the school system, either by the individual participants or through sponsorship of private money." |
i'd modify/expand on that just a bit since people ITT just want to argue the smaller picture all day.
make school about learning a trade that an individual is interested and geared towards. drop everything else. if a tech-minded person wants to learn advanced mathematics/computer science, don't force them to take classes that make them learn state capitols or freaking sing/line dance.
right now, a public education all the way through college usually means 80% of the stuff you are forced to learn/test against is utterly useless and forgotten within days. it's the reason i slept through a lot of high school and to this day couldn't even tell you half the classes i took. i played football and wrestled -- no, those don't apply anymore either, but i did learn about taking care of my own health and many other things from those activities. sports aren't completely stupid/useless, and the exact same thing can be said about education. i was salutatorian of my graduating high school class; it wasn't that i didn't appreciate education, i just found most of it useless.
fix the schools/curriculums if you're looking for something to wreck. that needs to happen long before just a blanket move like removing all sports.10/11/2013 3:07:38 PM |
Smath74 All American 93278 Posts user info edit post |
i played 3 sports a year in high school and i learned more life lessons that have been direct benefits from those than any single course i had to take. I'm not saying courses aren't important, but sports give a person life lessons that can apply for a lifetime. This is one of the most important parts of any education, especially high school. 10/11/2013 4:16:59 PM |
disco_stu All American 7436 Posts user info edit post |
Crap, I didn't play any sports in high school. I guess I'm half a person.
I'm pretty sure the life lessons you're talking about (teamwork, working hard, practicing, failing, succeeding) all can be found in academics as well. In fact, since most people will end up as cogs in the corporate or retail machines and not as professional athletes, they'd be better off learning how to interact with people in a non-athletic setting.
(disclaimer, I don't agree that we should remove athletics from public schools) 10/11/2013 4:29:17 PM |
Bullet All American 28414 Posts user info edit post |
I was a straight A/B student, took advanced and AP classes, was in honors society, art club, spanish club... and played sports. And I feel that I got some life lessons out of sports that I didn't get in high school classes or clubs.
And let's face it, some kids suck at classes and don't join other clubs. They're not going to get the life lessons there. 10/11/2013 4:38:16 PM |
adultswim Suspended 8379 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "I'm pretty sure the life lessons you're talking about (teamwork, working hard, practicing, failing, succeeding) all can be found in academics as well." |
different people find life lessons in different ways. what works for you doesn't necessarily work for others.
[Edited on October 11, 2013 at 4:40 PM. Reason : .]10/11/2013 4:40:23 PM |