Quote :

"If he went so far as to crush it you think he'd do a thorough job, plus hide it under at lease a couple other cars. How would volunteer searchers, even if they did spot it, get to it to even have the chance to pull a VIN? I'm also not sure if this podunk county would have the financial resources to pull apart a crushed vehicle to search for minute forensic clues."

The VIN wouldn't be so minute or require a lot of resources. I bet you could see it just by walking by the car. You could look at your car now and find the VIN stamped in different places. This isn't as hard a task as you seem to be thinking.

But we know Avery didn't crush the car, so this discussion is pointless, but if he did, this would have required more effort and time, exposing him more to being discovered.

Quote :

"Again, you can't have it both ways. This is a man with an IQ of Forrest Gump, if he's leaving the car out under some brush and dropping DNA laced keys by his shoes he can't also be mastermind enough to forensically clean 2 crime scenes."

It's baseless speculation to think that it wouldn't be possible to clean up a crime scene to where DNA couldn't be found. The defense attorney told us all this was really hard to do, but we don't know this is true in reality, do we? I certainly don't have experience with acquiring sample from a random spot and testing it (although i've done gel electrophoresis and spliced DNA into a plasmid). It depends on how good the lab is too (and considering they contaminated the bullet test-- they're not that great i'd guess).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI_effect

But a low IQ doesn't necessarily mean you are incapable of complex thought, it can mean you take much longer to process things-- if he was planning this for weeks, which seems to be the case, these thoughts could have occurred to him.

Quote :

" Quote : "Again, the compound was only locked down after some random woman happened to stumble across the intact car, with license plate, on the very outskirts of the compound." After searching for half an hour."

Why is this so peculiar? Our brains are really great at pattern recognition, you can probably point to situations where you noticed something unlikely too, i bet. If the car was covered weirdly with boards and branches, it would probably stick out compared to the other cars, the paint was probably a bit shinier too.

What you're suggesting is that the roommate (or was this the ex?) and his 2 female friends were all complicit in this murder, in addition to the police who planted the ashes, in addition to the detectives who planted the bullet and keys, the lab tech that tested the bullet, the FBI that tested the blood.

It seems like every single person involved in this case is responsible for the murder, except the 1 common factor: Avery.


[Edited on January 6, 2016 at 3:27 PM. Reason : ]

1/6/2016 3:18:52 PM

Quote :

"The defense attorney told us all this was really hard to do, but we don't know this is true in reality, do we? "

No, I don't know for certain. I've just been under the impression that if there is a brutal crime scene, where blood would be everywhere, particuarly on a bed mattress, or carpet, or a garage filled with junk waste high, it would be easy to find DNA in the following days, and be extremely difficult to wipe all traces of DNA. And with an aggressive investigation where they're obviously trying to find clues of his guilts, they'd be able to find the DNA. Maybe I'm wrong. But the wiki leak you keep posting doesn't really prove otherwise.

1/6/2016 3:26:46 PM

Quote :

"Why is this so peculiar?"

Really? Because he took all kinds of efforts to cover up some parts, but doesn't think that he might try to hide the car better than just parking on the very outskirts of his 40-acre compound that has literally thousands (maybe 10s of 1000s) of cars on it, and putting a few branches on it? That' not peculiar?

Quote :

"What you're suggesting is that the roommate (or was this the ex?) and his 2 female friends were all complicit in this murder, in addition to the police who planted the ashes, in addition to the detectives who planted the bullet and keys, the lab tech that tested the bullet, the FBI that tested the blood."

Nope, not suggesting any of this, although there certainly was reasonable evidence to suggest that some this may be true.. But really it would only need to be the murderer and the sheriffs department that were complicit, and others just believed them, went along with what they said, did as they were told, or just analyzed/commented on the evidence that was provided to them that could have been previously tampered with by the sheriffs. The detectives didn't find the bullet until months later, after the sheriffs department had been all over the property. And it was the sherrifs department that found the keys, not the detectives who searched it multiple times for several days prior. The same sheriffs department that wasn't supposed to be involved in the investigation.

And I just want to state once more, I don't believe he's innocent beyond a shadow of a doubt, I just think there's a lot of stuff that lend doubt to his guilt. And I find it pretty troubling that a liberal like yourself seems to believe, beyond of a shadow of a doubt that he's guilty and the investigators (sheriff's department) are being straight forward and honest when i think it's pretty obvious that they're not, even if he is guilty....

I'll stop after this, but it seems like maybe you're biased to always believe police brutality/systematic racism is involved when it comes to minorities.... abut then biased against rednecks (sorry, i could word this better, but don't have the time).

[Edited on January 6, 2016 at 3:46 PM. Reason : ]

1/6/2016 3:31:22 PM

http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/01/05/making-murderer-attorneys-reveal-evidence-wasnt-shown-netflix-documentary-series

1/6/2016 3:52:06 PM

Her ex-bf seems shady to me. He knows her password and deletes messages off her voicemail. Then when he helps set up a search and rescue crew, only gives a camera to the lady who found the car. Just doesn't add up.

1/7/2016 10:36:57 AM

^ that's probably the most interesting thing. Murders are often committed by people closest to you, so if they never fully investigated him, that's a big oversight. I don't really recall from the show what his alibi was.

1/7/2016 1:34:36 PM

from tech insider

Quote :

"Hillegas was Halbach’s ex-boyfriend and was featured prominently in “Making a Murderer” both at the trial and immediately after Halbach goes missing. By his own testimony, he and “some people” were able to log into Halbach's cellphone data to try and look at her call log. Halbach's cellphone was an important part of the trial, not only because Avery called her on the phone to set up an appointment when she would take pictures of his family's car for Auto Trader Magazine, but because the defense argued someone deleted some of her voicemail messages after her death. Redditors extrapolate that because Hillegas knew or guessed Hallbach's cellphone password, he may have also been the person to delete voicemails from her phone, which may or may not have contained incriminating messages. Redditors also noticed marks on Hillegas's hand from footage when he’s involved with the original search party for Halbach that they speculate could be human scratches. As far as we know from watching the documentary, he was never asked for an alibi at the time of the murder. Others don’t believe Hillegas’s involvement means he could have killed Halbach, but instead speculate he and Teresa’s brother Mike may have helped police cover up an illegal search of the Avery property by planning a search of the car yard with volunteers. Perhaps, Redditor shvasirons argues, they also supplied the suspicious car key that was later found by the Manitowoc officer in Avery’s bedroom."

Here's the link with other theories: http://www.techinsider.io/making-a-murderer-who-killed-teresa-halbach-theories-2015-12
(it brings up some things in the case that i'd forgotten)

[Edited on January 7, 2016 at 2:06 PM. Reason : ]

[Edited on January 7, 2016 at 2:08 PM. Reason : ]

1/7/2016 1:56:44 PM

Quote :

"Redditors also noticed marks on Hillegas's hand from footage when he’s involved with the original search party for Halbach that they speculate could be human scratches."

HOLY SHIT. We've cracked the case right open. Definitely couldn't have been scratches from spending days searching around in the woods.

So what's the theory? Hillegas murders Halbach and then plants DNA evidence? Or Hillegas murders Halbach, moves the jeep to the Avery property, the police coincidentally plant DNA evidence because they are so salty, and then he also provides them the key to the jeep so they can take evidence directly from the real murderer?

1/7/2016 2:08:19 PM

Dude was super-sketchy, somehow was able to "guess" her phone password, and possibly deleted voicemmails. Also directed the lady who found the truck where to begin searching the 40-acre property, which just so happened to be where the truck was. The scratches are just one more suspicious thing...

and you apparently haven't been paying attention to a lot of the discussion. he could have done it, and the sheriff's office then planted the evidence to frame avery.

have you watched it yet? it's funny that you seem to already definitively know what happened and dismiss other thingss without any facts except what you've read in here. weird.

[Edited on January 7, 2016 at 2:13 PM. Reason : ]

1/7/2016 2:12:55 PM

Quote :

"and you apparently haven't been paying attention to a lot of the discussion. he could have done it, and the sheriff's office then planted the evidence to frame avery."

Actually, I suggested this possibility in my post. It's absolutely absurd because now the police would have to be taking evidence (the key) from the actual murderer.

Yea. This is exactly how it went with Serial. Throwing out massively incriminating evidence in favor of nitpicking on a small number of character flaws/normal behaviors among people who couldn't possibly have committed the crime. DNA evidence? Planted. Her exboyfriend guessed her password (what a nonsurprise)? GUILTY.

I am going to watch all of it. I'm just going to laugh at the conspiracy theories along the way.

1/7/2016 2:29:03 PM

Cool bro, have fun

Quote :

"Throwing out massively incriminating evidence in favor of nitpicking on a small number of character flaws/normal behaviors among people"

There wasn't any more massively incriminating evidence against him than there was towards a cover-up/frame job.

[Edited on January 7, 2016 at 2:33 PM. Reason : ]

1/7/2016 2:29:59 PM

I think the ex bf or someone actually murder her and burned her body at the rock quarry gravel pit and left the car. That's when the sheriff found the car and called it in and said "99 rav 4 correct" even though it had not been reported missing yet. Like the defense lawyers said, the cops didn't try to frame him, just prove he is guilty.

1/7/2016 3:30:45 PM

Does anyone know how many times you can try to log in to your voicemail before it locks you out of the account?

1/7/2016 4:52:29 PM

Back then it was most likely an unlimited amount of times.

the one thing that everyone has barely mentioned and it's a BIG BIG aspect...

what the HELL was that deputy doing calling in those license plate numbers for a car/girl that wasn't even reported missing yet?

that tells me that they already had her car located and moved it to Avery's property on that back road/path somehow.

It doesn't match up at all that he would eliminate all the blood and traces of evidence from his home and garage but conveniently just lay her car in the back of the lot and not remove plates or blood or anything like that.

the cop calling in that plate was the biggest WTF to me...showed corruption outright.

1/7/2016 5:36:47 PM

Nevermind, wasn't thinking of them labeling the kid initially as a person of interest (thought they were just bringing him in as someone to interview about Avery)

[Edited on January 7, 2016 at 8:15 PM. Reason : my own failings]

1/7/2016 7:57:06 PM

I might have missed, so correct me if I'm wrong. With the EDTA testing, did the FBI test the purple vial blood from Avery to make sure their machines detected the EDTA, or did they just test the 3 swabs from the vehicle?

1/7/2016 8:52:06 PM

it'd be funny if the blood they tested from the car for EDTA was hers not his

1/8/2016 12:30:17 AM

^^ I would assume, as part of basic good practice, they used the vial as a control, i would be shocked if they didn't, but this wasn't mentioned in the show.

We'd also have to know how the preservative reacts to environmental exposure, does it break down in the sun or heat or contact with chemicals or whatever.

If these things weren't done, i think the "counter expert" the defense hired would have mentioned them, instead of her uselessly vague testimony of "it can't definitely proved it WASN'T there ". I wish I knew where lawyers found these shoddy "experts", reminds me of the affluenza case.

1/8/2016 8:11:39 AM

Quote :

"In regards to the documentary, the test showed that no EDTA was detectable in the blood swabs. Without a limit of detection, this information means nothing, absolutely nothing. It is possible that the test could only detect EDTA if EDTA composed at least 50% of the sample. The amount of EDTA in blood tubes is miniscule, almost negligible compared to the amount of blood. We are talking about 7 milligrams of EDTA in a 4-mL blood tube. If 0.1 mL was taken out, it would, at most, contain 0.2 mg of EDTA. The blood was swabbed from the vehicle, and probably only 1/10 of the blood (0.01 mL of actual blood), thereby diluting it further. The swab used was also wetted with some sort of solvent, maybe 0.1 mL. Now, there’s only 0.002 mg of EDTA in the blood swab. The swab most likely was diluted further for test purposes, probably taking the swab and re-suspending into at least 1 mL of solution. Using my numbers, which are probably conservative, the test would have to be able to detect 0.0002 mg (0.2 µg) of EDTA in 1 mL of sample. Outside of the amount of EDTA present in a 4-mL blood tube, these numbers are hypothetical for illustrative purposes only. The testing that would have been required to scientifically validate this test would have required some time. After following standard validation procedures, I would have taken blood from an EDTA vial (any blood) and put it onto a vehicle surface. After the blood was completely dry, I would have used the same blood swabbing and collection procedure used during the investigation, and then tested that sample. This would be a positive control, since the technician would know that there was EDTA in that sample. Does the newly-developed test detect the EDTA? If so, repeat it at least 10 times, and you have a strong scientific ground to make the statement that there was no EDTA present in the blood from the vehicle. If the test does not detect EDTA from the experiment above, one cannot make any mention about the presence or absence of EDTA in the blood swabs from the vehicle because the test could not detect EDTA amounts that small."

1/8/2016 9:03:31 AM

^... and? That's just describing what a test would do, it doesn't say this wasn't done. That's just more insinuation, that's not a claim, assertion, or even opinion on the test.

1/8/2016 10:23:23 AM

sooo what's the tl;dr version of this issue?

1/8/2016 10:29:35 AM

Quote :

"The test could be flawed, but a flawed test is better than the baseless conjecture of a defense attorney."

lol bad data > no data

Quote :

"but investigators would have gotten around to it at some point, and it wouldn't have taken them long to match up a VIN (which is stamped on most if not all parts of a car-- as im sure you know)."

As others have pointed out, volunteers searching for the car would have had a far harder time identifying the car if it was crushed, and mixed with other cars. If they were unable to locate the car, then how would cops have obtained a warrant to search his property?

Also didn't he voluntarily allow volunteers onto his property to search for the car/missing lady? I know the dude isn't the smartest, but I can't imagine he would have said yes knowing the car was there, in uncrushed form.

So is it true there was an incinerator on his property? If so does it get hot enough to completely turn a body to ashes? I've only watched 3 episodes so far, so not sure if it was addressed.

Quote :

"Others don’t believe Hillegas’s involvement means he could have killed Halbach, but instead speculate he and Teresa’s brother Mike may have helped police cover up an illegal search of the Avery property by planning a search of the car yard with volunteers. Perhaps, Redditor shvasirons argues, they also supplied the suspicious car key that was later found by the Manitowoc officer in Avery’s bedroom.""

1/8/2016 11:39:03 AM

Quote :

"what the HELL was that deputy doing calling in those license plate numbers for a car/girl that wasn't even reported missing yet? "

I thought she was reported missing, but she wasn't found yet?

1/8/2016 2:25:14 PM

^that was my understanding as well, she was missing but her car had not been found at Avery's at that time...either way, that is very odd. that's the last episode i've seen...and it was a hell of a cliffhanger for me.

otherwise, don't have a ton to add to this thread since i haven't finished the season yet.

the conversations with Brendan and his mother were sad to hear for me. you could tell he was very confused and unable to process what was happening. he told his mom something about "i won't be out by wrestlemania next week" which is kinda funny but also pretty sad to think that he was incapable of comprehending the circumstances he found himself in and his point of reference is whether or not he can watch wrestlemania. and him telling his mom "they got in my head, i don't know why. i guess i'm just stupid" or something like that...damn that's heartbreaking. so much of how all of this was handled was odd, but the stuff with Brendan was especially bad to me.

[Edited on January 8, 2016 at 2:41 PM. Reason : d]

[Edited on January 8, 2016 at 2:41 PM. Reason : d]

1/8/2016 2:35:05 PM

Quote :

"Also didn't he voluntarily allow volunteers onto his property "

Avery didn't. He wasn't on the property at the time and they sent 2 ladies to his office there were his relative, some creepy old man, was the one who let them search the property.


Avery said that he was in town or something and they purposely sent those two women to that guy at that time to "search" for the car, when they basically already knew it was there because someone placed it there.

This was evident bc those two women were given the bf's camera...he didnt give to to anyone else for any other search as well as them finding it within minutes on such a HUGE property...just doesn't add up.

1/8/2016 2:59:35 PM

the car crusher thing is kind of dumb. its not like they are crushing cars constantly; it wouldnt be a daily activity imo. and I'm sure it makes quite a bit of noise, so it would have been hard to do it without anyone knowing. Like "Hey Steve! Why the fuck were you crushing that sweet RAV 4 last night?' ya know?

[Edited on January 8, 2016 at 3:27 PM. Reason : l]

1/8/2016 3:27:16 PM

Do you realize how big 40 acres is?

And its out in the middle of no where, not like he had a ton of neighbors. This isn't Cary.

He could have EASILY crushed multiple cars and it never looked suspicious. Its 40 acres for God's sake.
____________

All that is just banter anyways...there's no way that dumb of a guy would have the know and means to clean up EVERY shred of evidence in his house and garage linked to her. There are people who have that job that couldn't even do it as well as he would have had to.

Just doesn't add up at all.

1/8/2016 3:37:14 PM

yes I realize how big 40 acres is All his family lived on the same compound. Someone would have noticed. I'm not trying to say he is guilty, I'm still on the fence. I was just pointing out why it wouldn't be a forgone conclusion that he would have crushed the car.

1/8/2016 3:52:12 PM

Quote :

" Avery didn't. He wasn't on the property at the time and they sent 2 ladies to his office there were his relative, some creepy old man, was the one who let them search the property."

That was for the search group that found the car.

However when she was reported missing, didn't the cops show up to SA's house and asked to look around and he said sure? That was when he was being interviewed by that reporter and he seemed pretty relaxed, said they came and looked around, he knew nothing about it(she asked if he took a polygraph(Sp?) I think?)

So if I am remembering that correct, those cops showed up and he already had the place clean, and let them come in and look around. He then leaves, other group comes and finds the car. You'd think with what this guy has gone through any cop that shows up, innocent or not, would tell them screw off come back with a search warrant. If he really did it, that interview is insanely impressive/psychotic, because he is showing no signs of guilt. But that seems doubtful, so another reason I think he didn't do it because he wouldn't have just let them come take a look around if he didn't legally have to.

1/8/2016 9:00:30 PM

Quote :

"sooo what's the tl;dr version of this issue?"

borderline retarded dude pissed off a cop's wife and so that county's sheriff dept decided to frame him for rape a year or 2 later

dude was finally exonerated nearly 2 decades later when dna evidence started getting popular

he sued the county police dept & DA for $36M and shortly afterward a chick was killed

the cops pinned the murder on him (ending the lawsuit) and he claims he's getting set up again by the same group of goons that fucked him over 2 decades earlier

most the key pieces of evidence against him in the murder:
- a confession from I think his nephew (16 and also borderline retarded) who has changed his story about 20 times (he says whatever the person he's currently talking to wants to hear)
- dead chick's car was found on his property (a property that is actually a salvage yard where he easily could have compounded said car if he knew the car was there as they proposed)
- a key to the dead chick's car with his DNA/prints on it (even though it wasn't found in initial searches by a different sheriff dept)....the neighboring sheriff dept was supposed to do all the searches at the house b/c of an obvious conflict of interest between the local sheriff dept & this dude suing them...local sheriff dept randomly showed up without the other dept's officers one day & wham, the key is found right under a shoe that had previously been turned over


the real short version: rural wisconsin cops hold grudges for decades and take PR in their 10,000 person county very seriously

1/8/2016 9:32:16 PM

i think hes guilty. The bullet did it for me.

they proved the bullet came from his gun that is above his bed in an article outside the docu. The docu never mentioned it.

So in theory, cops would have to take his gun, fire a bullet, take the slug, put her dna on it, throw it on the garage floor, and put his gun back.

pshhh

1/8/2016 11:05:11 PM

because that is really tough to do when you have the entire property to yourself for 7 days straight.

1/9/2016 3:04:49 PM

I watched the first two episodes of it. Interesting story, but I'm a little bored already with how slow it seems.

Not sure if I'm willing to commit another eight hours.

Does it get better?

1/9/2016 3:19:44 PM

^in a way it gets slower than the first two episodes as we slog through evidence but it's pretty surreal and great to watch an intense irl courtroom drama. technically slower, but deeper, more interesting, and even more fucked up, is probably the proper description.

i'm behind on all the internet discussion but what the fuck was steven avery's motive supposed to be? did the prosecution ever even attempt to establish a motive?


^^^ why didn't she bleed anywhere doe?

[Edited on January 9, 2016 at 4:05 PM. Reason : .]

1/9/2016 3:59:43 PM

Quote :

"I watched the first two episodes of it. Interesting story, but I'm a little bored already with how slow it seems. Not sure if I'm willing to commit another eight hours. Does it get better? "

i'll agree that i wasn't hooked after the first episode or two...but after about ep 3 or 4 i was definitely hooked. it does pick up in terms of suspense and interest, to me. it can be kinda dense (maybe not the right word) at times, like ^ said. some of it is slogging through evidence and testimony and stuff like that. but as you watch and as they dig, it becomes a much more gripping story imo.

1/9/2016 5:00:58 PM

Just get through Ep.3 and then you'll fly through rest.

1/9/2016 10:05:55 PM

Quote :

"^^^ why didn't she bleed anywhere doe?"

How do you know she didn't bleed anywhere?

I think people are getting stuck on the kid's confession. The kid could be innocent, or guilty and misremembering, confused, or making some and/or all of this shit up. So it's likely that no one slit her throat. Or they did but not in the bedroom. Any number of scenarios where Avery is still guilty.

You can't look at inconsistencies in one witness's story and totally decide guilt/innocence from that. Because people lie/forget/massage the truth. Again, people did the same shit in Serial season 1. Jay's story has MINOR inconsistencies so they immediately latch onto him being a liar/murderer/mastermind. Adnan's story has MAJOR inconsistencies, but so what, he has big brown dairy cow eyes.

1/9/2016 10:08:07 PM

i may be misremembering but I thought the prosecution claimed he/they shot her in the garage, where they ripped up concrete and found no evidence of blood spatter/soak-through or of cleaning.

i don't think anyone is taking one "witness inconsistency" and running wild.

they're taking an absolute lack of anything that appears to be a motive, a horrendous conflict of interest and fucked up investigation complete with numerous examples of shady police work, a witness testimony that was completely coerced and fed, possible shady jury behavior, and saying "hey, maybe this should be looked at again by someone not from this little proven-to-be-grudge-holding community or the fucking neighboring one."

1/10/2016 12:14:12 AM

Quote :

"id the prosecution ever even attempt to establish a motive?"

I think the prosecution's claim was that 18 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit turned him angry/violent and he wanted revenge on the world or something like that.

1/10/2016 1:36:33 AM

Quote :

"they're taking an absolute lack of anything that appears to be a motive"

the docu didn't mention this (and ya'll should google the shit they left out), she had been out to his property numerous times. He had called and requested her multiple times specifically to come out. Supposedly he was in a bath towel a few times she came over. He *67 called her the last two times so she would answer. She open complained to her boss she was tired of going over there.

http://www.people.com/article/making-a-murderer-dean-strang-refutes-prosecutor-claims

1/10/2016 7:25:53 AM

I wonder if Stevens number was the number Teresa's boss said was upsetting her when she saw it on her phone. Though that should be pretty easy to find out by looking at her phone records.

That's another lead that seemingly went unchecked. If she told her boss that someone called her several times and was obviously upsetting her, couldn't they have looked at her phone records and found the numbers that called most frequently? Then take that list and remove her family members or anyone else who had a legit reason to call her a lot (close friends, coworkers), and possibly look at the numbers that went unanswered by Teresa based on call duration.

I don't know, that could've amounted to nothing, but seems like an obvious lead that would've been easy to follow

[Edited on January 10, 2016 at 8:13 AM. Reason : Sfh]

1/10/2016 8:12:21 AM

^^ also something about when he was in prison telling another inmate he was going to make a torture chamber for women or something like that. I believe they tried to make the motive a history of aggression and mistreatment of women.

1/10/2016 10:17:14 AM

When they mention that a lot of items from the garage (including the sections of the concrete floor) still had Steven Avery's dna on it to prove he couldn't have used bleach to remove any blood that would have come from shooting Teresa was big for me. Seemed to get lost in all of the other cross examination of that shady lab tech though.

1/10/2016 11:23:05 AM

Aside from being skeptical of any sentence that starts with "Kratz told...," the towel testimony was not allowed in court by a judge who did not seem apt to do steven any favors.

Quote :

"Manitowoc County Circuit Judge Patrick Willis would not allow Dawn Pliszka, an Auto Trader receptionist at the time, to testify about one of Halbach’s previous encounters with Avery. “She had stated to me that he had come out in a towel,’’ Pliszka said while the jury was outside of the courtroom. “I just said, ‘Really?’ and then she said, ‘Yeah,’ and laughed and said kinda ‘Ew.’’’ Willis said he could not allow the testimony because the date wasn’t clear and few details were known about the alleged encounter."

It doesn't sound like she was actually concerned. It was receptionist chatter about a client being caught in the shower when a service provider arrived, not a feeling-threatened complaint to the boss.

And *67'ing a service provider isn't terribly uncommon, certainly isn't a slam dunk, and seems complicated by Teresa's ex/family 'guessing' her voicemail password and deleting things.

who knows!

1/10/2016 3:45:01 PM

Not to mention he was calling her to get pictures of vehicles he and his family were selling for Autotrader.

So it's not like he was calling her out of the blue.

1/10/2016 7:08:58 PM

Just watched a show on investigation discovery about this that was aired earlier this year. They played a different portion of dasseys interview and some other evidence that made it seem like Avery was definitely guilty

Incidentally, from the trial where he was wrongfully convicted, there wss way, way more obvious signs of police corruption, the murder trial was a standard of virtue by comparison.

1/10/2016 8:42:32 PM

Some woman on fox news had a forensics expert guy on saying the kid was definitely involved, based on the bleach stains, but maybe it wasn't Avery, it was on of the other nephews, and they framed Avery to inherit the scrap yard.

The woman host though reaffirmed her belief Avery was guilty because the key only had averys DNA, and only Avery would have wiped the key clean.

1/10/2016 11:13:44 PM

1/11/2016 9:14:27 AM

^^The thing about that though is

A) What is the point of wiping her DNA off of it? Even if it contained NO DNA whatsoever, it is still the key to HER car and would be just as admissible as evidence if found in his house.

B) If he is smart enough to get all of her DNA off of it, why wouldn't he get his own DNA off too?

C) Why would he just leave the key on the floor next to a shoe? Why not destroy it or hide it somewhere in his junkyard where it would never be found.

1/11/2016 9:35:56 AM

I like how the key was at a perfect right angle matching the corner formed by the wall and bookshelf

[Edited on January 11, 2016 at 12:34 PM. Reason : c]

1/11/2016 12:33:41 PM