30

Quote :

"Gene Boyce?"

Indeed.

6/15/2010 7:58:31 AM

question: does anyone wear contacts? and are you wearing them for the bar exam?

i thought about this when i was taking a practice MBE today. my eyes get REALLY dry when i have to read for that long so then my contacts are dry and my eyes just hurt and its bothersome. i was thinking maybe i should take the actual bar exam with my glasses instead of contacts.

6/17/2010 3:57:15 PM

hi - its me again. i hope everyone's studying is going well. i hate this so much. ok but i have a question about MORE SCHOOL (yes, more school).

i know we chatted earlier about the benefits (lack of benefits) from an LLM degree and that tax is really the only area an LLM is beneficial. so, i hate bringing up that subject again but even in areas such as international law, an LLM isn't beneficial? looking at this program (a year out, i wouldn't go until next fall...unless of course i somehow have the job of my dreams by then): http://www.law.washington.edu/sid/. it is an LLM in sustainable development.

second question - is it weird to get a master's after getting a JD? again, looking at sustainable development programs and looking at this Master's in Development (its offered at several schools...UC Berkley, Columbia, Minnesota, and several international schools). http://mdp.ei.columbia.edu/?id=mdpprogram

i mean since a JD isn't really specialized in one area would an additional degree not help me reach career goals? if i want to be in the public (or perhaps private) international sector? i'd love to work at a place like RTI and i don't just mean in their legal department. i'm also really interested in international business which can go hand in hand with sustainability. i just feel like it would supplement my law degree with courses in health, economics, environmental issues and finance.

i just don't know - i don't really want more loans unless an extra degree would help get me somewhere. i mean obviously both programs look very academically appealing to me but i'm not just going to go back to school to go back to school.

thoughts? advice? anything?

7/5/2010 12:06:48 PM

this is just my opinion and nothing else, but even if you say you're not going back to school to go back to school to me it looks like you're taking one step forward and two steps back getting a masters after a JD

lol, making the teacher call you Dr. Kadwackle would be pretty funny tho

well about a month left till my 1L starts and so far it's Elon unless Campbell comes to my rescue and saves me from moving to Greensboro

7/5/2010 1:52:55 PM

well sadly JDs are not called Drs anyway

but it just seems like i can't do anything i want to do with JUST my law degree, making me seriously wish i had thought about this long and hard before getting my JD. i mean...it would have been best had i chosen a program with dual degrees. but sadly, i did not. i also didn't consider what would happen if i couldn't find a job and the economy sucked balls. so much for a JD opening lots of doors. i have yet to see a door even crack open - even in areas outside the traditional field of legal practice. i've applied to policy and business jobs, too. nothing.

i mean at least you have 3 years, so you'll be graduating in 2013 but a lot of experts say they don't expect the job market for lawyers to pick up until 2012. actually they're saying graduates of the class of 2010 are even WORSE off than the class of 2009, which was funny because last year everyone was saying "oh it can't get worse at least you aren't the class of 2009."

not to be a debbie downer, and congrats on going to school and everything, but i totally wouldn't go to law school at this juncture. i mean you have 3 years, so hopefully things get better but...i personally would not want to take the risk. i'd feel more comfortable waiting another year or so to see how things pan out.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/best-law-schools/2010/06/25/law-jobs-will-be-harder-to-come-by.html?PageNr=1
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/bad_legal_job_market_for_2010_grads_could_get_worse_in_2011_nalp_exec_says/
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704866204575224350917718446.html

7/5/2010 2:47:47 PM

thanks for the info, yeah my mom already sends me all those clippings

but i'm gonna try and go IP law which I'm hearing (i could be wrong) is a pretty good field in NC

7/5/2010 10:43:14 PM

haha. i need to start forwarding my dad the clippings. he seems clueless and thinks jobs are abundant! sigh.

IP is cool. was your undergraduate focus science?

7/6/2010 12:15:28 AM

^^I'm hoping it's a good field. That's what I hope to be doing in about a year when I graduate.

7/6/2010 10:42:19 AM

I can't understand why anyone would want to add to their increasing graduate school debt in these times unless they had a guaranteed job waiting when it was over.

7/6/2010 2:47:20 PM

^ oh yea i'm not talking about now. i mean at the earliest next year or the year after. like if i still don't have a good job is getting a master's even though i have a JD even going to help boost my shit? or no?

i'm just so confused. ugh. i wish i never went to law school. worst. decision. EVERRRRRR.

anyway hopefully i can find a job that pays for me to go back eventually. but that doesn't really seem to be happening anytime soon. and i wouldn't go anywhere that i didn't get a scholarship to. but like..i mean...the JD is supposed to "open doors..." thats all i heard before law school and after - even if you don't want to practice but want to do something with the law (policy or otherwise) that it is a degree that "opens doors." i know times are horrible but i am not finding that AT ALL. even with entry level policy jobs that only require a BA. i mean...maybe they aren't filling those but i'd at least think i was qualified for those since i would have been qualified with just my BA?!?!?!

ugh

[Edited on July 6, 2010 at 3:00 PM. Reason : .]

7/6/2010 2:52:58 PM

Quote :

"i'm just so confused. ugh. i wish i never went to law school. worst. decision. EVERRRRRR. "

Even though I'm in debt and don't have a job lined up right now, I don't feel this way at all. Becoming a lawyer was always my goal in life, so I don't feel that this was a bad decision because I am (hopefully in August) fulfilling my life goal.

I guess I can see how this would be a bad decision for someone that didn't want to become a lawyer, but rather saw law school as a means to an end. However, if that's the case, I wouldn't advise anyone to go to law school. Too much debt and work to get a degree that is continuously become less valuable (less valuable because more law schools are opening and graduating more lawyers, therefore, saturating the market). Only go to law school if you really want to become a lawyer.

7/6/2010 3:39:53 PM

^^There aren't too many doors to open right now.

^Which you might unfortunately find out soon (but hopefully not).

As cliche as it sounds, with this economy, you have to create your own doors. Although its scary as hell, "hanging your own shingle" is what is appearing to be the only option for a ton of graduates right now. Or just beg an established attorney to let you hang around them and do whatever you can then it won't be that big of a deal when you finally go out on your own.

I heard that a ton of doors open when you pass the Bar. But that just isn't the case anymore. Hopefully that will change at some point, but it's not going to in the near future.

Going to law school might have been a bad idea from a financial standpoint, but it's only an advantage to have a JD.

7/6/2010 4:12:17 PM

^^, and ^ i guess too haha. i don't know what you mean by "lawyer" - do you mean practicing in the traditional sense - like at a firm? i didn't go to law school as a means to an end. that would be utterly retarded. but since i don't want to do what 99% of the kids that go to law school want to do, i have become a little disenchanted with my colleagues. and perhaps its just the time of year (stress city from the bar! haha) but i was also getting really sick of the law "type" while in school. it was making me hate a career i hadn't even started yet. with that said...

there are (or WERE) a lot of other areas in which a JD would be useful. i went to law school because i enjoy the subject and knew i wanted to do something with it...practicing isn't out of the question, but what i want to do will end up making less $$$ a year than like a person who just has their BA and gets a teaching or office job.

i want to work at a think tank, NGO, not profit, etc, etc. preferably in the international field. i also really like international business. i just don't feel like my law degree has equipped me for any jobs in these areas like it was "supposed" to. OR people just aren't hiring. i dunno. i'm just worried that i can't do what i want to do with my law degree even though i SHOULD be able to. if that makes any sense.

i guess if i can't do the think tank/NGO stuff i would rather do legal aid/migrant worker's/indigent defense/etc type stuff (hence the making less than someone with a BA would right out of school) which i really WANT to do but isn't going to pay back my loans. and i'm aware if i do 10 years of "public interest" work there is loan forgiveness but it is just still a little ridiculous to me that even WITH a scholarship i incurred so much debt for a degree that isn't going to pay off, at least monetarily. which isn't my goal at ALL - i didn't go to school to get rich. i went to school because as pessimistic as i seem somewhere deep down inside i'm an idealist and want to save the world and i can't get over it even though i've told myself its stupid and not worth it like 100 times. but THAT is why i went to law school. i wish i could just say fuck the poor people and be motivated by salary, but i'm not. but i do need to live, obviously and that requires $$$. hence the problem.

sooo i'm just really, really, really frustrated. at the debt. at the fact that i have no idea how to pay it off after deferral is over (which still accrues interest, AWESOME). that i have no job prospects. that the outlook still isn't good for attorneys. that we're competing for jobs with seasoned attorneys who have been laid off and who have experience. that i know people who graduated over a year ago who still aren't employed or who just do temp contract work for companies. that i can't even get an INTERVIEW?! like i haven't had an interview for anything since my 2L year when i had to turn down a summer internship. and the thing is, i'm NEVER going to get a job. because the only work experience i have (legal wise, anyway) is working at legal aid while in school. WHY? because after my 1L year i couldn't afford to work for free during the summer AND i withdrew from my 2L year because my mom died and i had to take care of my dad all summer and i wasn't even sure i was going to be able to go back to school let ALONE graduate this year.

so who is going to hire me? no one. i have limited legal experience AND an entire row of Ws on my transcript. i feel like they probably just see that and throw it in the trash before bothering to read my cover letter which attempts to explain it. i had to work my ass off to finish this year and i'm a very hard worker and i've been through a lot. i just feel like if i had an interview i could convey this better since i'd be face to face with another human being, instead of having to try to explain myself (i know everyone has to do the same thing, i'm just whining) in like 3 sheets of paper. *SIGH*

/rant.

^ yea i agree. i just have no interest in doing a solo practice NOR can i afford it. i mean i'm willing (as stated in the unemployment thread) to work low end shitty ass jobs (i have my whole life, so why not) to save money and pay bills, etc. and i think you said that the service industry, etc is a great networking opportunity, and i totally agree. i've met tons of people waiting tables/working retail. so at least i'm getting connections. its just frustrating. as i'm sure you understand. i'm just frustrated because i feel like i made the wrong choice or something. i don't know what i would have done otherwise, though (if i didn't go to law school).

[Edited on July 6, 2010 at 4:31 PM. Reason : .]

7/6/2010 4:28:38 PM

^ That may be long, but it actually makes a lot of sense to me--I get it. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.

7/7/2010 1:57:44 PM

^^

Quote :

"i didn't go to law school as a means to an end"

I hear you saying this, but I also hear you saying this...

Quote :

"there are (or WERE) a lot of other areas in which a JD would be useful."

and this...

Quote :

"i want to work at a think tank, NGO, not profit, etc, etc."

Both statements refer to jobs that you want to get that don't REQUIRE a JD. Therefore, law school was a means to an end for you. Which, as you so elegantly put...

Quote :

"would be utterly retarded."

[Edited on July 7, 2010 at 2:31 PM. Reason : .]

7/7/2010 2:30:27 PM

Quote :

"i guess if i can't do the think tank/NGO stuff i would rather do legal aid/migrant worker's/indigent defense/etc type stuff (hence the making less than someone with a BA would right out of school) which i really WANT to do but isn't going to pay back my loans. and i'm aware if i do 10 years of "public interest" work there is loan forgiveness but it is just still a little ridiculous to me that even WITH a scholarship i incurred so much debt for a degree that isn't going to pay off, at least monetarily. "

actually i did the math on this and its an incredible deal if you get on an income based repayment plan and you make every single payment every month and stay in public work
basically lets say over 3 years you took out $100,000+ in loans...it's possible to only pay about $27,000 TOTAL (making about 30-40k/year) over 10 years and have that entire debt wiped out

i'm using actual calculators from fafsa and government websites which told me that and i calculated taking out $200,000+ in loans since I already have $50k left from undergrad. i think it said it would balloon to over $400,000 by the 10 year period but it would be completely wiped.

income based repayment. look it up.

7/7/2010 2:35:17 PM

yea it is a great deal. its also 10 years of working public interest jobs that burn people out. it seems like a nearly impossible task

i do like that the 10 years is just 10 years. it doesn't have to be a continuous 10. so that is nice.

you are just so chipper about debt and the bad economy. i wish we could trade places haha and i could be positive. hopefully i will get a job (any job) sooner rather than later. i applied for a job as an admissions counselor at state haha. i mean i'd even do that for a year or two until i find something else that i actually want to do. i just want a jobbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb so i can pay for things like health insurance. and when my deferral period ends, so i can make payments on my loans. i'm terrified of that day.

7/7/2010 3:21:07 PM

yeah my wife and mother are always like "how can you be so positive?!" and im like "isnt that a good thing!?"

i know its pretty much everyone else's goal too but i'm gonna work my ass off to be in the top of the class and hopefully make myself employable even in a down market.

in everyone's experience, is it better to intern at a few different places during summers and slow semesters or find one firm who might enjoy 3 years of pro bono work?

7/7/2010 9:08:52 PM

well keep staying positive you're going to need it. and whatever you do DON'T go polling this year's graduating class to find out how many in the top of the class are employed - you won't like the results haha.

and as a far as summer employment, unless things drastically change in the next year, i think you're gonna have to take whatever you can get. elon has a couple of good clinics though and i'd totally recommend doing those during your 2L and/or 3L years SO even with the economy kinda meh (really meh) you still have the opportunity to get some really good hands on experiences even if you don't land anything during the summer. and if you do summer + clinic's then you're getting a lot of good experience. i personally think everyone should be forced to work with low income people during their law school careers but, that doesn't happen. i think it gives you great perspective though and looks good on the ol resume.

1L year just don't worry about doing anything during the semester - at least not first semester. focus on your schoolwork so that when employers come to campus you can at least get interviews.

oh and shameless promotion of my favorite organization that i may or may not have run for a year . you should totally do the innocence project. its a bit of a time commitment. BUT you actually get to look at files (your first semester) which a good portion of people in law school haven't done before. its good intro hands on experience (w/ going through files. i mean, you get to see all the components, read a trial transcript, read different motions, etc, etc). it helps you practice your memo writing. not a lot of people do it. that is the one thing on my resume that i get asked about in EVERY interview because it is interesting and again, not that many students do it for whatever reason. plus it is a great organization.

7/8/2010 1:29:00 PM

thanks. ill look into it. i definitely think ill be working with low income/public work at some point in school because i think it's both necessary and could be interesting even if it's not what i'd like to do for a living.

7/8/2010 1:41:27 PM

^I will second the Innocence Project. My best law-school friend, and next door neighbor worked on the Greg Taylor case through the Innocence Commission. Very neat experience for her.

7/8/2010 2:10:30 PM

Quote :

"in everyone's experience, is it better to intern at a few different places during summers and slow semesters or find one firm who might enjoy 3 years of pro bono work?"

Best Option
Doesn't matter where it is (federal judge's chambers, law firm, public defender's office, district attorney's office, etc.)...find somewhere early and stick with it, regardless of paid or pro bono. That way once you graduate you are more likely to have a job with that entity. However, don't pick a place that can't hire you upon graduation. If you work for a superior court judge, that is great, but guess what...he (most likely) can't hire you upon graduation (exception - business court superior court judges).

OK Option
Work anywhere legally related to build your "legal" resume. (i.e. superior court judge, Innocence Project, etc.)

Bad Option
Work somewhere non-legally related to build your resume.

Worst Option
Do nothing.

[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 3:27 PM. Reason : .]

7/8/2010 3:25:51 PM

how do you find a firm/discuss with said firm what their prospect search may be in 2+ years? What's a realistic discussion like that involves "if i do such and such for you for 2 years, will you promise to keep me at the top of the stack should an opening appear?" do you set academic goals with this potential employer? allow them to guide your class registration toward a certain specialty that both interests you and fills a need for them? nobody likes to do something for a couple of years and find out they hate it or won't fulfill their other goals in life

basically, the ball is in the employer's court so how much of a mix should there be of loyalty to a potential employer/making sure you're not hurting yourself in the process?

i realize it's not a cookie-cut answer but i'd like to hear some more indepth thoughts from people who have gone through it/are going through it

and i don't believe i will regret going into debt or law school. i actually very much enjoyed undergrad (the classes, i mean) and i have been looking forward to going back like a kid waiting to go to disneyworld. (incidentally, the last time i went back to disneyworld it was fun but not AS fun as i remembered lol)

7/8/2010 4:02:15 PM

Are you a 1L or about to start law school?? First of all, you ask all of these questions like you're going to have options. I honestly hope you do, but you'll more than likely take whatever is available and just be glad you have it.

But whoever hires you will ask you a majority of the questions you're asking.

A law firm will hire you or allow you to volunteer for only one of two reasons: 1) They want to see if you're good enough and will try and employ you when you're done with law school or 2) They want free help and they think you can provide that for them and they don't give a shit about hiring you after you're done and will just continue to get free help from future law students.

So they'll ask you whether or not you're interested in that area of law (which of course you'll tell them you are, or you'll lie if you aren't so you can get the job). And they'll usually tell you whether or not they're looking to hire you when you're graduate or not. You'd be surprised how honest a lot of firms are. I had a ton of friends that worked just during the summer or during the school year, and the firms would even pay them during that time, but they just couldn't afford a full time salary when they graduated (and the added benefits, etc)...and they would tell them just that.

And don't annoy them with going into the details about "if I do this and that, will you keep me at the top of the stack??" Just work your ass with them. When it comes time to sign up for classes, that's when you ask them what classes you should take to concentrate on what the firm concentrates in. As each semester comes up, ask them what times they'll need you to work so you can tailor your schedule around work. And reality is that you don't really have any flexibility with your schedule in law school. Your first year will probably be 100% planned out for you, 2nd year around 75%, and 3rd year about 30%.

Quote :

"nobody likes to do something for a couple of years and find out they hate it or won't fulfill their other goals in life"

A lot of summer/part-time law school jobs are just that. Figuring out what you DON'T like. Even if you go in thinking you know exactly what you want to do, your first job my convince you otherwise.

I like your optimism, but you've got a bit of reality coming your way.

Its honestly common sense.

7/8/2010 4:27:55 PM

well there's common sense and then there's the business sense...for instance i've been guilty of being too honest with my employers in the past. i told my past employer i was going to law school in a year and they tried to get rid of me in a shitty way and they paid the price for it. i just wanted to know if that kind of practice extended to law firm internships as well. i'm glad to hear that they will ask those questions because i will probably be honest with them regardless. it's also good to hear i'll have to work hard if i want to have some options because i don't want to start off at a disadvantage.

i start next month, btw. very excited . decade of debt, here i come!

7/8/2010 4:42:21 PM

Quote :

"Bad Option Work somewhere non-legally related to build your resume. "

i disagree w/ this being a bad option. my 1L summer my only options (legally related) were to work for free somewhere and i couldn't afford that. my parents weren't going to help me. so i had to do what i had to do. no one has ever said anything bad about that in an interview. it isn't the *BEST* option but it isn't a *BAD* option either. i think it is in the middle. but everything is better than nothing. but its not like working my 1L summer in a non-legal position negatively affected me. i still got interviews 2L year. the whole withdrawing from school thing was what got me

Quote :

"I like your optimism, but you've got a bit of reality coming your way. "

truth.

and honestly things like legal aid and innocence project are still good options. not just ok. they will help you. you don't just build your resume, you get experience. and people will ask you about it in interviews. plus, you often get more hands on experiences in these settings than you do filing papers for a firm all summer. just my 2 cents. obviously that is my take because these are things i did though

but i don't have a job so...i suppose they didn't get me super far

7/8/2010 11:04:31 PM

Quote :

"my 1L summer my only options (legally related) were to work for free somewhere and i couldn't afford that. my parents weren't going to help me. so i had to do what i had to do. no one has ever said anything bad about that in an interview."

I believe I got my current job because I bartended throughout law school instead of settling for bottom of the barrel internships that didn't pay anything. My boss worked his way through law school and said that "saving money in this shitty economy" was probably one of the smartest things I could have done. 90% of my interview was spent talking about the bars I worked in and the 2 month Europe backpacking trip I took after taking the Bar exam. It's definitely an exception to the rule...but you gotta do what you gotta do.

7/9/2010 8:04:02 AM

First, my labels might be a little misleading - I was more or less trying to show the hierarchy. Sorry for any confusion.

Second, got an interview in BFE Virginia for a paid clerkship on Monday. Don't want to be in BFE Virginia, but if this clerkship can lead to a bigger and better clerkship (preferably in NC), then its all good. Then that bigger and better clerkship could lead to a good position in NC. Hopefully my logic will work and in 3-5 years I will be where I want to be, doing what I want to be doing, and making $texas.

7/9/2010 9:48:43 AM

^Where are you taking the Bar exam?? I'm going to assume NC. I know you don't have to pass the Bar to be a clerk, just curious. Good luck on the interview. I live in SC and had many law school classmates take clerkships in BFE SC, so I've witnessed your pain. Clerkships are great learning experiences, especially if you can get a good judge.

7/9/2010 10:16:58 AM

Yeah, I'm taking the bar in NC. I'm hoping that this VA clerkship will get me enough clerkship experience that a NC Supreme Court Justice, NC Court of Appeals Judge, or Federal Judge will give me a clerkship with their chambers. Those clerkships typically end in a pretty good job. So hopefully, this plan of attack will work. I don't mind taking the long route to the perfect job, as long as it get me there.

7/9/2010 10:35:54 AM

Quote :

"I don't mind taking the long route to the perfect job, as long as it get me there."

ding ding! that is me, too! congrats on the interview!!! that is exciting.

well except my long route will probably be just getting a job, any job until the "perfect" job makes itself known

7/9/2010 11:27:17 AM

so I sent in a request to be put on the wait list at NC Central, per instructions in a rejection letter dated March 16th (request sent March 25th)

yet when I checked my status on July 1st it read "decision rendered: April 1st" so I've been calling and leaving messages for the last two weeks and noone's returned any of my calls. finally got ahold of the Dean of Student Services today and shot him a copy of the original request

now let me know if i'm in the wrong here but I also asked that i be given some sort of extra consideration at this point so close to the beginning of the semester and the fact that i've held off other plans thinking I was on the waitlist all this time. it's not the holding off of plans that bothers me though it's the fact that i've been holding off for no reason apparently since they were never going to get back to me as it was. i just asked that i be treated as if my name was put on the list on March 25th, wherever that may place me in the stack.

not happy right now

7/13/2010 11:12:57 AM

I might be getting this wrong, because your post confuses me a little bit, but...

It sounds like they dropped the ball in not letting you know that you were no longer on the waitlist. However, you might have also dropped the ball because you sent in a request letter on March 25th, yet you didn't check on it until July 1st?? You should have checked a week or two after...or AT LEAST a month or two after.

Also...what exactly does this mean? Have you been accepted to any other schools or was this your last option?

7/13/2010 11:20:33 AM

Quote :

"they dropped the ball in not letting you know that you were no longer on the waitlist"

not even that, they never put me on the waitlist! my request was never put in the system so i've been waiting this whole time to hear back

and look, yeah i could have checked earlier but every single letter from every single school says "please do not contact us about your waitlist status" or some variation and so i literally sent off the request and waited until July 1st when I figured I would be closer to hearing back. i don't think that's unreasonable.

ive been accepted to Elon but that means moving to Greensboro and my wife works in Clayton and since she'll be my sugar mama for the next 3 years it would mean having split living arrangements while I'm in school during the week. So NC Central or Campbell would be a better choice for me rather than Elon but I'm just ready to start somewhere.

[Edited on July 13, 2010 at 11:46 AM. Reason : f]

7/13/2010 11:44:21 AM

Also does anyone know who runs Law:/Dev/Null? i'm enjoying reading it

http://www.lawdevnull.com/

7/13/2010 11:48:51 AM

I guess I thought that there was a possibility that they denied your request to be put on the waitlist. I guess I'm unfamiliar with it because when I was applying for law schools they just told me straight up that I was on the waitlist.

Sounds like they definitely dropped the ball. You might want to see if you can find out where exactly you were on the waitlist and see if they can put you back in that position. Sounds a little far-fetched, but it's worth a shot.

7/13/2010 11:55:10 AM

i'm thinking that due to a large spike in applications (people going back to school in this job market) they are actually making people put in requests for wait lists now. i had to do it for both Campbell and Central.

it's always going to be an imperfect system though until accepted students are FORCED to tell other schools that they have made a final decision and should no longer be considered. as it is you can just leave other schools hanging until deposits are due and get weeded out that way.

7/13/2010 12:00:37 PM

i just got a reply. it reads (and i am not paraphrasing here)

"Mr. (my last name),

You are on the waitlist.

Dean Douglas"

I'm really starting to think that I should just forget Central altogether. It seems like they couldn't care less I'm a potential student who will drop 30k a year in their laps. It's like torture trying to get them to explain themselves. This email tells me roughly 1/3rd of the information I asked for in my email. It doesn't tell me if they made a mistake and I'm NOW on the waitlist or if they made a mistake on the website and I've always been on the waitlist and it just wasn't reflected. It doesn't give me any better idea of where I stand than yesterday other than the fact that my name is somehow on the waitlist. Luckily I'm still waiting on Campbell so maybe they can rescue me from these other options but at least the people at Elon have been very helpful and attentive. I can get ahold of their people afterhours almost immediately if I wanted.

7/13/2010 3:07:06 PM

Quote :

"Also does anyone know who runs Law:/Dev/Null? i'm enjoying reading it"

http://www.lawdevnull.com/about/

7/13/2010 4:10:21 PM

yayyyy. networking is helping!

i mean i haven't found a job or anything but i have a TON of people looking out and several people who i'm getting put in touch with after the bar exam that might need volunteer help in their firms (small firms, so not looking to hire) BUT its in an area i'm interested in and i mean, i don't mind that it is "volunteer" at least it is SOME experience.

of course i'll still have to wait tables or something, too. but at least i'd be doing something with my degree. and hopefully helping people and getting experience so that i can eventually get a "real" job

7/13/2010 4:21:40 PM

^^ it would be that easy, wouldn't it?

[Edited on July 13, 2010 at 4:46 PM. Reason : he mentions wolfweb though on his site so i didnt know which one of us he is...unless its you]

7/13/2010 4:45:30 PM

I think I killed my interview! Spent 20 minutes talking with his current clerk (someone I knew from school) and then about an hour and 15 minutes talking with him. Talking about anything from the law to sports to movies...it didn't feel like an interview at all, but more like a conversation with a friend's father or something. Not to mention everything he said, I seemed to have a related experience or story to share on the subject.

Only shitty thing is the pay and the location, but I can deal with that for a relatively short period of time (year).

We'll see!

7/13/2010 6:29:34 PM

Both of my roommates just graduated from Campbell law and are currently in bar prep courses. For the past several months, at least, they've both bemoaned going into law school, getting into debt, and whatnot. And they have told this to prospective students, if they're to be believed. (Of course they're both larval lawyers, so they aren't to be believed at all, and no I'm not just being bitter at having been sued four times)

But I do get the impression that they enjoyed Campbell a lot, debt aside. Just in case anyone is on the fence about it.

7/14/2010 4:55:55 AM

Quote :

"It seems like they couldn't care less I'm a potential student who will drop 30k a year in their laps. It's like torture trying to get them to explain themselves."

Playing Devil's advocate, but they probably don't care. You're on the waitlist, which means they've already filled all of their seats and they still have people waiting. So if they don't make you happy, there are probably still people behind you that will fill that seat. You won't see any form of ass-kissing until you actually fill that seat (like what Elon is doing with you).

^

I don't regret law school at all...and I'm definitely not sitting in the prettiest position. I don't like the debt, but oh well. If I hadn't gone, I'd probably be bartending/managing at a bar back in Wrightsville beach (a position I was offered the summer before law school started that I almost took). I'd be making decent money with no debt, but I'd be a little dissatisfied with myself. Undergrad wasn't enough for me, and there wasn't another grad school option that was interesting to me or that I could actually do. I had no interest in medicine and graduate school in business would have been more of a waste than a law degree.

Although the law degree hasn't necessarily opened a bunch of doors for me (because there honestly aren't that many doors available to open), it has the potential to open more doors down the road. I potentially have a great job right now (working for a great solo practitioner who wants me to take over for him in the next few years) even though I'm not making much money in it. And I'm still heavily involved in the restaurant industry down here and I can't tell you the level of respect I get just because I went to law school down here. I am the "bartender that's also an attorney." It doesn't make me a better bartender or restaurant manager, but people just respect me more than the college dropout or the guy who just graduated with a communications degree and can't find a job. I have futures plans and ideas in that industry as well, and my law degree has already given me a leg up in that department.

I'm definitely one of those people that you could peg as a "never should have gone to law school" persons. But other than the debt, it has given me nothing but positives.

7/14/2010 10:20:26 AM

that makes sense (them not kissing my ass) but to be so unhelpful that it makes more work for both of us doesn't make sense either

there's some minimum level of attention i think all prospectives should receive that's missing and you're also right it's probably because the guy is thinking "i wish i could just tell this guy not to hold his breath, we're like 99.99% full" but of course he can't say that

7/14/2010 10:28:31 AM

Quote :

"well sadly JDs are not called Drs anyway but it just seems like i can't do anything i want to do with JUST my law degree, making me seriously wish i had thought about this long and hard before getting my JD. i mean...it would have been best had i chosen a program with dual degrees. but sadly, i did not. i also didn't consider what would happen if i couldn't find a job and the economy sucked balls. so much for a JD opening lots of doors. i have yet to see a door even crack open - even in areas outside the traditional field of legal practice. i've applied to policy and business jobs, too. nothing. i mean at least you have 3 years, so you'll be graduating in 2013 but a lot of experts say they don't expect the job market for lawyers to pick up until 2012. actually they're saying graduates of the class of 2010 are even WORSE off than the class of 2009, which was funny because last year everyone was saying "oh it can't get worse at least you aren't the class of 2009." not to be a debbie downer, and congrats on going to school and everything, but i totally wouldn't go to law school at this juncture. i mean you have 3 years, so hopefully things get better but...i personally would not want to take the risk. i'd feel more comfortable waiting another year or so to see how things pan out."

This needs to be stickied and is really the important post in this thread.

Law school is not fun. It is a professional school to get a credential.

I don't totally agree with people who say "Only go to law school if you LOVE THE LAW!!! You'll be miserable if you're only in it for the money!". I think, or at least hope, that a fairly small percentage of people choose to do this just for giggles, and that people consider many factors, including future earning potential, when choosing a career. I left science to go back to law school and two big reasons were geographic freedom and money.

That being said, you really do need to consider, strongly, if this is a field you want to be in right now. If you have connections, like terpball, have at it. Law school is great for those people. If you have a substantial scholarship, have at it.

But if you're thinking "Gee, should I pay full price at Central? Surely something will pan out for me!", then it may be time for a reality check. There are very, very few jobs right now.

The dropoff if you don't go to a good school is stark. It's an employer's market. You are not guaranteed, entitled to, or promised a legal job.

You are however promised five or six figures of very real, very nondischargeable debt. People who say "Oh silly! I'm relying on IBR!" need to take the rose-colored glasses off and think about the debt load and financial commitments this nation has in front of it for the next century or so. Are you willing to gamble (and that's what it is, literally a gamble) that this program will still exist, in its current form, 10, 15, 25 years out? Would you be able to handle it if you were making $30k and paying IBR payments and then all of a sudden SNAP Congress or the President kills it and you've got $1100 or $1200 a month due? IBR is meant to be a fallback, safety net, all else fails plan, not an excuse to take out $150K. You will be living just above the poverty line for 25 years. If your salary ever edges above the prescribed income limit, you lose the benefits of the program.

I've now been far more of a Debbie Downer than khcadwal, but this is no joke. I am lucky to be at a good school with still pretty good prospects, but this time last year I giggled at people like me too. This is serious as a heart attack folks.


[Edited on July 14, 2010 at 7:09 PM. Reason : .]

7/14/2010 7:05:24 PM

^ hit nail on head

The only thing I would add is that going to Central right now would be a good idea for people in state because you would only rack up about $80k in debt (purely speculation). However, going to private school and racking up $150k in debt...not such a great idea. I realize that I have a substantial debt (not even close to $150k but still substantial), and that I will be paying on it for quite a while. I'm OK with that because I feel that I have the connections and the resume to support it. However, if I did not, then I would be concerned.

Alright back to my greedy wife known as the bar exam. She really does suck up all my time, money and interest. What bitch she is! Hopefully she will pay it back come September 20.

7/15/2010 8:44:13 AM

^ Just read my own post and incurring $80k debt in this economy is not a good idea, and wasn't what I was referring to. I should have said that it is a better idea than going to a private school because 80 < 150.

Lastly, I also don't mind the debt, because as I have said previously I am (hopefully in less than a month) fulfilling my goal of becoming an attorney.

7/15/2010 2:47:04 PM

i really liked ^^^ post and even though i am absolutely determined to go to law school and rack up a large debt, i think that i'm doing it for the right reasons. i left school in 2006 and i knew about 6 months after I got out that I wanted to go to law school so that's 3.5 years of planning and research and anticipation. the first day of school in august will be to me just below my wedding day, that's how i literally feel about it right now. and clearly i'm optimistic by nature but that's an advantage, not an obstacle.

7/16/2010 12:07:07 AM

so listen to this shit....after 3 days of sketchyness while she was visiting friends in DC and 12 days before the bar exam, my girlfriend of 4.5 yrs breaks up with me via facebook and text messages

thanks a lot bitch...what a fucking mind game!?!?!

doing some drinking tonight and then later tomorrow afternoon (due to the inevitable hang over) i guess i got to get back to bar prep

7/16/2010 2:49:28 AM