for page 30:

it’s 2019 and there are still people who think that democrats should court republicans who think Trump is icky

this administration has been a republicans wet dream policy-wise, and if any republican were to wake up from a 4 year coma and see the list of things this administration has done without knowing or seeing who the president was, they would be absolutely ecstatic

there is no reason whatsoever to give a damn about what these people think democrats need to do to get their vote

8/1/2019 1:51:01 PM

Never trump republicans are Bush/Cheney/Karl Rove republicans.

Why the fuck would democrats have any interest appealing to Bush republicans?

8/1/2019 1:54:05 PM

Another bit of nuance, you may disagree, but I think "appeal" is too strong a word. I think absolutely think, during a general, the Dem nominee should take time to explain and convince ALL voters that these "far left boogie man policies" are actually good for them.

Like RJ, I'd be potentially interested in convincing you that something like Medicare for all is good for the country. That's essentially what GE debates are for. I would not be interested in you saying we should abandon those policies to appeal to voters on the right.

8/1/2019 2:08:03 PM

Hillary Clinton lived in the White House for eight years, was in the senate for eight years, and secretary of state for four.

In 2015/2016 she was accused of being a D.C. insider, she denied it. She tried saying that being a woman made her an outsider.

What she SHOULD have been saying is "Damn straight I'm an insider, I've been there, I know the inner workings of the job, I have experience."

She could have used the accusation as a strength to solidify the left's confidence in her abilities. Instead, she tried to convince people who would never vote for her anyway that she wasn't what they thought she was. It came across as a ridiculous lack of integrity.

Ryan, Delaney, Bullock, and Bennet likewise all seem to care more about what Republicans think than what the people who might actually vote for them think. And so no one will vote for them. Biden and Harris can take a seat with them for that matter. They need to get out of the way of candidates who actually have a platform on which to stand.

8/1/2019 4:25:16 PM

That took a really long time to get to your point but good post I spose.

8/1/2019 4:38:37 PM

Quote :

"Never trump republicans are Bush/Cheney/Karl Rove republicans. Why the fuck would democrats have any interest appealing to Bush republicans?"

To win a presidential election that's determined by the Electoral College?

8/1/2019 4:58:30 PM

Appealing to those assholes will lose dem voters and still not gain many assholes, fucking duh

It also causes long term damage by continuing the shift to the right

So its bad short term and long term

[Edited on August 1, 2019 at 6:00 PM. Reason : F]

8/1/2019 5:58:09 PM

As others have pointed out on this very page, the Dems don't have to run on some BS platform that tries to be all things to all voters (left, center, right); they can actually be like Warren who is doing a good job of selling far left ideas as reasonable, pragmatic, and American. In fact, despite her horrific gaffes about the DNA test, she seems to be gaining a lot of ground. I haven't noticed her lashing out and trying to attack other Dem candidates very much (like we saw last night), but maybe that's just a coincidence.

8/1/2019 6:34:23 PM

So why are you saying we need joe biden nonsense. I've been the one saying Warren, you've been the one saying we need to appeal to other people. Stop gaslighting.

[Edited on August 1, 2019 at 8:41 PM. Reason : .]

8/1/2019 8:40:02 PM

Wat

I’ve been openly critical of him since he released that horrific announcement campaign ad, but if my comments about him during his last dud performances during the debates were unclear, I’ll be more direct: he’s a sucky, out of touch candidate that managed to dupe a lot of people into thinking he’s the white Obama. He’s a terrible choice, but fortunately the more exposure he gets, the more I think he digs his own grave.

For the last time: I am NOT trying to advocate for adopting a more centrist Dem platform. I am, however, advocating for a change in the approach of pretty much ALL Dems who keep falling into the same trap Trump keeps setting regarding race.

Saying that I’m gaslighting or trying to advocate something that I’m not is pathetic, and you should do better.

[Edited on August 1, 2019 at 8:49 PM. Reason : Again with the gaslighting]

8/1/2019 8:48:29 PM

It disagree with your position but I think you've been mostly consistent and clear. You bounce around to different topics sometimes in a way that can be hard to follow but we prob all do that. I know I'm no persuasive writing champ.

8/1/2019 9:44:48 PM

ITT I learned that UJW's posts makes Guth question his own sanity.

8/1/2019 10:39:25 PM

^^, ^

I'm just not getting the personal attacks. I get that we disagree, but calling me a centrist and a gaslighter?

Gaslighting is a pretty serious accusation, so assuming that he actually knows what the term means, it's pretty fucked up to call me a gaslighter just because I happen disagree to disagree with him on messaging/strategizing, as opposed to an overall ideological disagreement.

Gaslighting is a term usually reserved for predators/rapists/abusers/narcissists/sociopaths/etc, because they harm people and then lie/deny what happened, causing the victim to question his/her sanity...

Um, I don't think saying I disagree with the way the media and Dems take Trump's bait whenever he's purposefully racist to rile up his base and piss off the left, but maybe I'm just minimizing? Or something.



[Edited on August 1, 2019 at 11:09 PM. Reason : Synapse gets it lol]

8/1/2019 11:08:43 PM

It’s easier to cope with reality when you think (or claim?) everyone is gaslighting you.

8/2/2019 7:56:24 AM

That doesn't even appear to be helping him anymore

8/2/2019 8:16:37 AM

UJW has repeatedly said that we need to appeal to independents by not being energized, that we need "high-road" boring centrist nonsense. he acts like he wants progressive policies, he just doesn't want them to rock the boat or actually do anything to advance progressive policies because he thinks democrats need republican votes to win. he complains about biden, but still thinks his bland centrism is the best chance to beat trump because he thinks he's the only one aware of the EC. he says that he wants to impeach trump and makes passing complaints about pelosi but then says it's the right play because impeachment is divisive and that could hurt democrats. etc... if you want to use projection or another word than gaslighting that's fine with me.

UJW:
implying democrats need a coalition with bush-republicans... i mean never trumpers

Quote :

"How so? Because democrats/liberal/progressives/neverTrump folks can't agree on anything, so Trump doesn't even have to win on popularity or likability"

in response to tlaib calling out trump:

Quote :

"It was dumb. Doesn’t help with the GOP narrative that Dems have it in for Trump. "

thinks pelosi is doing a good job

Quote :

"She held serve and didn’t back down, making Trump look like a complete idiot. I’ve never been a big fan of hers, but she’s doing a great job this time around."

thinks biden is the best chance to beat trump

Quote :

"You’re absolutely right, but unfortunately, it looks like Biden (ugh) is probably the best chance Dems have to beat Trump."

and only realized problems with biden after the debate

Quote :

"I never realized how unlikeable Biden is until just now."

in response to me saying fuck racists and don't try to appeal to them said we need the "on the fence racists"

Quote :

"There's too many of them to be able to do that, plus you do have a segment that's on the fence or could change their mind. Trump banks on this."

ignores that the majority actually don't like the blatant racism of the president and says in multiple posts that we should avoid calling the president racist and ignores the polls posted by other users that show that even white uneducated people don't like the president's racism

Quote :

"If we ignore these people and label them "deplorables" ala Clinton in 2016, it's a pretty big gamble. If we try to convince these people that Trump is racist (along with their views), it's exhausting (and probably a huge waste of time). After thinking about it a while, I think the best we can do is to try and reframe these types of Tweets into something that avoids labeling people (racist/xenophobic/bigot/etc) and fanning the flames of hatred. Moron has the right idea, more or less, even if it sounds idealistic and hokey."

invokes MLK (MLK!) even though he admits to not having knowledge (i mean King literally wrote a letter about this kind of white moderate thinking)

Quote :

"If we ignore these people and label them "deplorables" ala Clinton in 2016, it's a pretty big gamble. If we try to convince these people that Trump is racist (along with their views), it's exhausting (and probably a huge waste of time). After thinking about it a while, I think the best we can do is to try and reframe these types of Tweets into something that avoids labeling people (racist/xenophobic/bigot/etc) and fanning the flames of hatred. Moron has the right idea, more or less, even if it sounds idealistic and hokey."

then went on in multiple posts to pretend like the media does an adequate job calling out the presidents racism and argues that racist and racially charged or xenophobic are the same (!)

appealing to the democratic base is wrong guys! you need to appeal appeal to trump voters!

Quote :

"You and rwoody seem to think that it's more important to preach to the Democratic and far left choir than it is to try and send a different message to independent voters who will hold their noses and vote for Trump assuming the economy is doing well, and don't want to hear about racism because in their twisted minds they feel attacked/persecuted. I disagree, and I haven't completely given up on trying to get those voters to see that Trump is mean, divisive, and a poor leader, even though I wish we all could and leave them behind since they're too dumb to figure out what racism actually is and why it's bad."

but then he seems to recognize this is bad mid post and says we just need to find common ground! we don't need progressive policies or to call out racism, we just need to find a common ground with them!

Quote :

"My argument, which you seem to keep twisting, is that it's a trap to keep trying to convert independents (who fucking matter in an election decided by the EC) by framing it first and foremost as a racism problem, when that shuts down the conversation. My potential solution, as far as trying to court these voters is concerned, would be reframing the issue is a way that's more about finding common ground and unity (it's mean, cruel, un-American to say what Trump tweeted). "

again saying independent voters are important and calling out racism is bad after rwoody showed polling that shows that independents don't like trump's racist statements and tweets

Quote :

"I'm saying that if you want to court white independents (hell, they don't even need to be white) that are on the fence (and they DO fucking matter because of the EC), there are better ways to attack Trump than calling him a racist every time he does something racist, most of the time as a loud distraction from other issues."

energizing your base isn't important! they didn't come out in 2016 but they will this time if we don't appeal to them!

Quote :

" MY argument, which hasn't changed, is that it's a waste of time to worry about preaching to the choir (i.e any reasonable left-of-center voter who has been paying attention since Trump got elected), since pretty much everyone who has progressive values already has accepted this fact. I haven't given up on the small segment of voters who could actually be persuaded by arguments that AREN'T tied to complicated issues like racism. "

we can't hurt the fefes of fragile white people (the fragile white people who don't like the presidents racism)

Quote :

"You may not believe it, but there are plenty of white people in this country that don't really understand what racism is, but when backed into a corner, they'll lash out and find solidarity with other whites (racist whites, mind you), simply because they don't want to be called a racist. These people are stupid, but they're also the same stupid people who fell for the disinformation campaign launched by Russian bots."

even though trump gained less than half of the votes democrats lost in swing states, he still holds onto this bland centrist logic

Quote :

"The reason I keep bringing up the EC is simple: all Trump needs to do to win is hold his base, so long as there's division on the left, which clearly there is. Nobody has really brought it up yet, but a 3rd party candidate (or several) can easily poach Dem votes again, helping him win another term. Every time he launches a divisive distraction and people on the same team argue about what to do, it helps him."

so after all of that he makes this statement:

Quote :

"As others have pointed out on this very page, the Dems don't have to run on some BS platform that tries to be all things to all voters (left, center, right); they can actually be like Warren who is doing a good job of selling far left ideas as reasonable, pragmatic, and American. In fact, despite her horrific gaffes about the DNA test, she seems to be gaining a lot of ground. I haven't noticed her lashing out and trying to attack other Dem candidates very much (like we saw last night), but maybe that's just a coincidence."

so he says dems don't have to run on some BS platform that tries to be all things to all voters but he is the one who keeps saying they do (because of the EC!). Says Warren is doing good, but Warren calls out the presidents racism, wants impeachment, and isn't trying to appeal to on the fence racists - things he disagrees with in his post history. if it's not gaslighting what is it?

8/2/2019 9:51:14 AM

Wait, does dtownral = jonhguth?

8/2/2019 11:24:08 AM

just to clarify are we saying moderates dont exist or they arent important or we dont care if republicans court them instead?

[Edited on August 2, 2019 at 12:15 PM. Reason : ?]

8/2/2019 11:59:10 AM

Quote :

"You may not believe it, but there are plenty of white people in this country that don't really understand what racism is, but when backed into a corner, they'll lash out and find solidarity with other whites (racist whites, mind you), simply because they don't want to be called a racist. These people are stupid, but they're also the same stupid people who fell for the disinformation campaign launched by Russian bots."

They know what it is. Trump has just made it much easier for them to claim a false accusation.

8/2/2019 12:11:36 PM

^^non-leaning independents make up less than 10% of voters and vote at about half the rate, so those on the fence people should be ignored completely as group that you need to target anything to.

no one is claiming moderates don't exist, the point is that to win you need to energize and mobilize your base and trying to appeal to "on the fence" trump voters will un-mobilize your base in a way that appealing to your base will not un-mobilze moderates who lean towards your part. it's shortsighted that appealing to moderate/centrist policies will cause the turnout needed because that's what the 2016 campaign was.

it's also bad strategy long term, because repeatedly trying to appeal to centrist/moderate voters will continue to shift the party and overton window to the right.

because of the EC, we need the voters who stayed home in 2016 in battleground states to turnout in huge numbers and a similar campaign to 2016 seems like a bad way to do that

[Edited on August 2, 2019 at 12:19 PM. Reason : .]

8/2/2019 12:15:30 PM

TIL no moderates stayed home and ~10% should be ignored completely

8/2/2019 12:17:54 PM

if that's your takeaway that's a you problem, not a problem with the argument

8/2/2019 12:20:36 PM

TIL the base isnt going to show up against a second donald fucking trump term

8/2/2019 12:26:29 PM

we knew who donald trump was in 2016 too

additionally, i'm not sure how your "argument" makes it bad idea to point out how bad trump is



[Edited on August 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM. Reason : " "]

8/2/2019 12:28:57 PM

TIL the last few years havent moved the needle one bit

its not a bad idea to point out how bad trump is but the base already knows. the republican base also knows how great he is hence ignoring everyone else completely is stupid.

8/2/2019 12:31:36 PM

so your opinion is that in 2016 the democratic base didn't think donald trump was really bad?

Quote :

"its not a bad idea to point out how bad trump is but the base already knows. "

then you disagree with UJW

[Edited on August 2, 2019 at 12:41 PM. Reason : .]

8/2/2019 12:34:07 PM

my opinion is they know it for a fact but you think its necessary to bully them and otherwise act crazy. they require neither so your acting crazy drives away moderates which are the real prize.

people like you gave trump a few unexpected EC victories and next time could be even worse. i think you have no idea historically how this country actually leans.

8/2/2019 12:40:54 PM

Ignore the troll. Just created an account today and 5 of his first 7 posts were used to claim that courting moderates is the problem.

The right candidate is NOT the one who changes their platform to meet the lowest common denominator. That's disingenuous someone you can't trust (again, reference 2016 to see how that went). The right candidate is the one who can convince you their platform is the right one and that it will work.

I am so sick of people saying they are on board for Bernie and Warren's policies but don't think they can win. They won you over, didn't they? So help spread the message instead of trying to block it.

[Edited on August 2, 2019 at 12:45 PM. Reason : -]

8/2/2019 12:42:43 PM

people like me? the primary candidate i wanted didn't get nominated.

the "moderate" candidate got nominated.

she lost

i don't want the same kind of moderate candidate again because i think they may lose.

the things i want the party to push for are supported by the majority of americans

8/2/2019 12:43:15 PM

^^what? call me crazy but i think dtownral is the one saying courting moderates is the problem.

[Edited on August 2, 2019 at 12:46 PM. Reason : does that mean you think hes a troll?]

8/2/2019 12:45:18 PM

more specifically my main problem is trying to court trump voters

8/2/2019 12:51:21 PM

good maps to click through:

Detailed Maps of the Donors Powering the 2020 Democratic Campaigns
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/02/us/politics/2020-democratic-fundraising.html

Most donors/ most donors if Sanders is excluded looking at some battleground states:

MN - klobuchar has solid coverage
WI - Sanders / mix of Warren and Buttigieg if Sanders is excluded
MI - Sanders / mix of Warren, Buttigieg and a little Biden
PA - Sanders small amount of biden / good mix of Biden with Buttigieg and some Warren
AZ - Sanders / warren with a little bit of biden and a small amount of buttigieg
TX - O'Rourke strong lead / O'Ropurke with some Castro around San Antonio
NC - Sanders strong lead along the appalachians, narrow along the coast / Biden along coast and some Warren and Buttigieg mixed in towards the piedmont and western part
GA - Sanders with Biden around Atlanta / Biden with a few areas of Warren or Buttigieg
FL - Sanders / Biden with areas of warren or buttigieg

[Edited on August 2, 2019 at 1:15 PM. Reason : don]

8/2/2019 12:54:55 PM

so you think the people youre lashing out at here (UJW for instance) are advocating going after the republican base OR all moderates / centrists are trump voters?

8/2/2019 12:58:21 PM

^^It’s kind of flattering that you took all that time to dig through my posts and cherry picked the ones (several of which were out of context btw) you liked to try and paint me as some villain, but I’m not really into playing these types of games. Who’s the gaslighter, again?

[Edited on August 2, 2019 at 1:02 PM. Reason : .]

8/2/2019 1:01:52 PM

the entirety of your arguments are in conflict with your statement that we should elect someone like warren because she is doing what you keep criticizing progressives for doing regarding election demographics, calling trump racist, and wanting impeachment

8/2/2019 1:11:18 PM

so you think democrats can unilaterally elect whoever they want or you dont think warren will appeal to moderates?

8/2/2019 1:15:42 PM

which dem candidate do you think will appeal most to right-leaning independents or trump voters?

8/2/2019 1:17:50 PM

besides dodging my question and moving the goalposts im going to say "not sanders because hes the only reason youre fucking salty anyway LOL."

also please search UJWs entire posting history (again) and find where he called right-leaning independents and trump voters "moderates."

8/2/2019 1:25:58 PM

of these 3 images, which do you think represents the most support among "real america" or whatever the republican talking point phrase of the day is:


[Edited on August 2, 2019 at 1:29 PM. Reason : .]

8/2/2019 1:28:43 PM

i wasted my first dozen posts arguing with an angry neckbeard bernie bro. i bet he even shops at Kohl's.

[Edited on August 2, 2019 at 1:38 PM. Reason : the real question is that map pre or post cardi b?]

8/2/2019 1:37:21 PM

Here's how a left wing candidate can court moderates and even Republicans without compromising on ideals:

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/08/01/support-medicare-all-jumps-when-right-wing-talking-points-are-countered-strong

8/2/2019 1:38:38 PM

thank you fellow noob for the brilliant link pointing out phrasing is important. medicare for all would be received even more positively if cardi b incorporated it into a twitter thread about what pee tastes like.

[Edited on August 2, 2019 at 1:43 PM. Reason : .]

8/2/2019 1:41:21 PM

which candidates support M4A and which candidate has been using republican talking points to attack it?

8/2/2019 1:43:05 PM

Quote :

"which dem candidate do you think will appeal most to right-leaning independents or trump voters?"

I actually thought that Beto had the best chance at appealing to both the moderates and the dems.

8/2/2019 1:46:04 PM

bernie "how pee taste like" sanders supports M4A and joe "nobody on this board supports him" biden does not?

did i get it right?

8/2/2019 1:51:51 PM

Quote :

"the entirety of your arguments are in conflict with your statement that we should elect someone like warren because she is doing what you keep criticizing progressives for doing regarding election demographics, calling trump racist, and wanting impeachment "

WTF

I'm way too lazy to rebut each paragraph in that sad blog post you spent way too much time crafting, but here's a quick example of your childish (and hypocritical!) tactics:

Quote :

""She held serve and didn’t back down, making Trump look like a complete idiot. I’ve never been a big fan of hers, but she’s doing a great job this time around.""

- 1/25/2019 3:36:1


You literally cherry picked a quote of mine about how Nancy Pelosi was handling Trump's GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN that began last December. One that was replying to you, in which you admitted she "won" the battle!

Quote :

" she's still ineffective, i mean she "won" a 35 day shutdown to an unpopular president pushing for something most americans don't want and both the senate and house had already voted in favor of not including. let's set the bar a little higher than that. she has also been in the house for a long time, so she knows how it functions"

And you did so to make it seem like I was condoning her game of chicken tactics regarding impeachment.

Sad, man.

8/2/2019 1:53:25 PM

you've repeatedly explained her reasoning and said that you agreed with her not calling for impeachment, which warren wants. you've also said she is good at politics and said she's doing a great job, in that quote, which is why i quoted it.

so warren wants to impeach, you do not
warren calls the president racist, you say that's bad and shouldn't be done
warren is campaigning to progressives with left policies, you think the candidate should appeal to trump voters

i like warren, you do not seem to like warren

[Edited on August 2, 2019 at 2:00 PM. Reason : you're a centrist you're just smart enough to know how bad their policies actually are]

8/2/2019 1:57:56 PM

Quote :

"I mean I was basically just paraphrasing shit she has already said, so I don't really know what else to tell you. Do you honestly think she's holding out for anything other than political theater/chess moves? And as infuriating as it is, punting and saying "well the Senate won't do it" is still accurate up to this point. She can sit back and wait for congressional testimony to unfold as long as she can and it won't really hurt her. It's not like she's going to get voted out of office for using stall tactics, as shitty as they are. "

Quote :

"To be clear, I'm not in any way condoning/approving what she's doing. I think it's cowardly and pathetic and harms our democracy in immeasurable ways. I just don't see why anyone is surprised that she's taking this tactic. It's beyond obvious to me. Admittedly, I also have a pretty bad case of "outrage fatigue" at this point, because the bottom line is that Trump's approval still rating won't budge and nobody seems to give a shit except for people who've been directly oppressed by this horrific administration. I fully anticipate things getting even worse than they already are, and I won't be surprised at all when Trump is reelected. I compared Trump's rise to power to Hitler's a while back and people thought I was being hyperbolic or dramatic, but the longer he is in office, the more dangerous he becomes. But yeah, it's shitty that the most powerful woman in the supposedly free world is being political and short-sighted about the whole thing. "

Quote :

"Her refusal to do anything until absolutely necessary doesn't cost her much of anything, which is why she's punting and will continue to do so. Again, using her own words/logic, impeachment is a bad idea when you have an obstructionist/immoral senate, so why get everyone riled up and lead the charge now when it's bound to fail? I mean do the Dems think they'll score a moral victory by "rushing" the impeachment route when they have zero chance of removing him from office? Will it hurt his approval enough to have him lose the election? IDK, but I can see why she'd not want to take her chances. It's like trying to shoot the moon in Hearts. Or something. I think she's gambling on a lot of bombshell revelations being uncovered from congressional testimony, and it could all come back and blow up in her face for not doing anything about sooner. But probably not. I think people are being more idealistic than pragmatic about this, and that's probably going to lead to even more disappointment. Also, I'm pretty bad with sports/gambling metaphors when trying to offer a plausible explanation for a politician's game of chicken, so my apologies. SHOULD she back it? Sure. In a perfect world where moral victories and optics matter like they should. "

8/2/2019 2:01:46 PM

warren says we should start impeachment proceedings

you agree with pelosi that we should not

your quotes support that, which is why i used them

you think it's bad to call the president racist, warren does not

you think we should appeal to trump voters, warren is sticking with her progressive message

[Edited on August 2, 2019 at 2:05 PM. Reason : .]

8/2/2019 2:04:09 PM

Quote :

"Elizabeth Warren being interviewed on CNN was a disaster. I’ve always liked her policies, but she’s totally awkward and came off as a phony when Anderson Cooper threw her softballs. 1/23/2019 1:13:22 AM"

So 6+ months later and she's doing a MUCH better job of being a presidential candidate (which I'm happy about), but I never liked Warren?



Ugh. I'm getting trolled hard by a gaslighter

8/2/2019 2:05:31 PM