It is obvious to anyone not trying to pull their foot out of their mouth.

Now flounce away.

[Edited on August 31, 2009 at 1:46 PM. Reason : .]

8/31/2009 1:45:53 PM

"It's obvious."

So obvious that you can't even make the argument. Not once. Which leads one to believe there is no argument to be made.

You sure do like wasting time, don't you?

8/31/2009 1:48:34 PM

I have already established the argument. It is not my fault you are unwilling to actually read it and not continue to stand by your strawman argument. You are so willing to infer conclusions you cannot see what is clearly in your face.

8/31/2009 1:49:49 PM

And here we go. Again you are offered the opportunity to clarify, in the way a rational person would. Instead, you stomp your feet and scream, "It's obvious!"

Much like a child.

[Edited on August 31, 2009 at 1:54 PM. Reason : I'm done here.]

8/31/2009 1:51:24 PM

I did it once and I clarified later. It's not my fault you are intent on your interpretation.

[Edited on August 31, 2009 at 2:02 PM. Reason : .]

8/31/2009 2:02:20 PM

Elderly have their own worries on health overhaul (AP)

Quote :

"'Nobody is talking about cutting Medicare benefits,' Obama said during an online AARP forum in July. Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius carried the same message to a seniors' center in Washington, D.C., on Thursday. 'There are a lot of important features for the Medicare system' in proposed legislation, Sebelius said on her way out, citing a provision that would stave off cuts in payments to doctors. Yet a problem for Democrats is that mixed in with the misinformation are some real causes for concern, some analysts say. Evolving health care legislation probably will be paid for in part by cutting some $500 billion from Medicare over 10 years. Obama and his supporters say the cuts would not affect benefits and would strengthen Medicare by reducing fraud and abuse and attacking inefficiencies such as unnecessary hospital readmissions and overpayments to insurance companies that operate private plans within Medicare. But some health care experts say some seniors will probably have to pay more along the way. 'Seniors are rightly concerned that half a trillion dollars in cuts might have some impact on access and quality of care,' said Mark McClellan, a doctor and health economist who ran Medicare for former President George W. Bush and also served in the Clinton administration. McClellan said the concerns could be particularly justified for the 25 percent of Medicare users who are covered through private Medicare Advantage plans, which would absorb about 30 percent of the cuts under Democratic proposals. If Democrats can't succeed in allaying such fears, it could spell trouble for Obama's goal of passing a health care overhaul bill this year."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hDhCh34v_tkYgRNx4UUaZrORDmRQD9ABF0JO3

9/1/2009 3:06:25 AM

did anyone really give a shit about old people before this.

i mean seriously. Everyone has always treated them like shit.

9/1/2009 10:46:35 AM

Our problem is not with healthcare, it's with "sick care". Healthy people don't go to the hospital, but sick people do. Here's an analogy someone gave me...

Think of it in terms of automobiles:
a) A poorly built car that's not been maintained needs to go to the shop more often
b) A quality car (maintained properly) does not need to go to shop as much

Obama's backwards solution would be:

Auto repair will be subsidized by government (taxes), doesn't matter the quality of their car or how they maintained it. If the industry gets overloaded with cars, just build more auto shops. Hire more mechanics. Put tons of money into useless technology that fills windshield washer fluid. Maybe throw a little emphasis on regular maintenance at the end. If things get iffy, just keep throwing money at it. Dig the hole deeper.

A smart solution:

Build a better car and maintain it properly. No, it's not a quick fix. Stop looking for quick fixes! How do you think we got into this mess in the first place? Yes, we have lots of broken cars that need to go in the shop today. But, either we find a long term solution, or else we're gonna run out of money OR run out of room for Jiffy Lubes and highschool dropout mechanics. You can only throw so much money at it. A poor quality car that's not been maintained is what mechanics call a 'money pit'. Besides, the industry can only handle so many cars. Instead of increasing capacity, decrease demand by building quality cars and maintaining them properly.


Yes, the problem goes deeper than my analogy, but if we can nail down the concept of "quality" and regular "maintenance" in terms of our health, then we'd solve atleast half of our problems in our "sick care" system.

9/1/2009 10:51:47 AM

A public option would focus more on preventative care, which, in your analogy, would be "building a better car."

9/1/2009 11:06:11 AM

Maybe I didn't make the main point clear enough:

Quote :

"'Nobody is talking about cutting Medicare benefits,' Obama said during an online AARP forum in July."

Quote :

"Evolving health care legislation probably will be paid for in part by cutting some $500 billion from Medicare over 10 years."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hDhCh34v_tkYgRNx4UUaZrORDmRQD9ABF0JO3

9/1/2009 2:23:49 PM

Quote :

"probably"

does not equal something that is true

and also, I'm sure an article has no bias when it begins with the following phrase:

Quote :

"Turns out you can fear a government takeover of health care even if the government already took over your health care."

Additionally, the CBO found that:

Quote :

"in the words of CBO director Douglas Elmendorf, the public option "did not have a substantial effect on the cost or enrollment projections largely because the public plan would pay providers of health care at rates comparable to privately negotiated rates -- and thus was not projected to have premiums lower than those charged by private insurance plans in the exchanges.""

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10431/07-02-HELPltr.pdf

[Edited on September 1, 2009 at 2:33 PM. Reason : ]

9/1/2009 2:32:53 PM

^^it is conceivable to cut money from medicare without cutting benefits.

9/1/2009 2:42:01 PM

^^^Here is the missing text after those two statements. I know, this part is so inconvenient to making your point. You would just rather act like it's not there.

Quote :

"Obama and his supporters say the cuts would not affect benefits and would strengthen Medicare by reducing fraud and abuse and attacking inefficiencies such as unnecessary hospital readmissions and overpayments to insurance companies that operate private plans within Medicare."

9/1/2009 2:55:14 PM

This local story seems relevant to the turn this discussion has taken. The radio segment is only like 4 or 5 minutes long if you want to listen to it.

http://wunc.org/programs/news/Isaac-Hunters-Tavern/the-senior-health-scare-story

Quote :

"The Senior Health Scare story If you missed my story on NPR's Weekend Edition this morning, here it is. As soon as NPR posts it on their site, I'll link it here as well. In Raleigh, North Carolina, this past week, members of the Alliance for Retired Americans picketed the state Republican headquarters, asking the party to stop using what they call scare tactics to turn senior citizens against health care reform. It could be the start of a voter backlash against what some say is a misinformation campaign about health care reform. From North Carolina Public Radio, Laura Leslie reports."

9/1/2009 3:02:02 PM

Quote :

"But some health care experts say some seniors will probably have to pay more along the way."

Quote :

"'Seniors are rightly concerned that half a trillion dollars in cuts might have some impact on access and quality of care,' said Mark McClellan, a doctor and health economist who ran Medicare for former President George W. Bush and also served in the Clinton administration."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hDhCh34v_tkYgRNx4UUaZrORDmRQD9ABF0JO3

Who gives a shit, though, am I right? They're old! LOL!

9/1/2009 5:30:08 PM

9/1/2009 5:46:11 PM

Quote :

"hold among the elderly over Obama's drive to remake the nation's health care system is "

Quote :

"job getting the message to seniors about how they could benefit under the "

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hDhCh34v_tkYgRNx4UUaZrORDmRQD9ABF0JO3


[Edited on September 1, 2009 at 6:11 PM. Reason : ]

9/1/2009 6:06:58 PM

obama dropping public option? the rumor is not generating much buzz

9/2/2009 5:29:03 PM

BEST. PROTEST. EVAR.
Billionaires Against Health Care Reform.
http://www.newraleigh.com/articles/archive/billionaires-strike-back/

9/2/2009 9:15:17 PM

Quote :

"Quote : "But some health care experts say some seniors will probably have to pay more along the way." Quote : "'Seniors are rightly concerned that half a trillion dollars in cuts might have some impact on access and quality of care,' said Mark McClellan, a doctor and health economist who ran Medicare for former President George W. Bush and also served in the Clinton administration." http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hDhCh34v_tkYgRNx4UUaZrORDmRQD9ABF0JO3 Who gives a shit, though, am I right? They're old! LOL! "

So what are you trying to say, the gov. should be paying for peoples' health care?

9/2/2009 9:17:30 PM

September 4, 2009
Sources: White House drafting health care bill - CNN

Quote :

"WASHINGTON (CNN) – CNN has learned that the White House is quietly working to draft health care legislation after allowing Congress to work on its own for months."

http://tinyurl.com/nbjuog

LOL! Obama needs to do something:

September 1, 2009

Quote :

"Two in three Americans call the health care plans under discussion in Congress confusing; only 31% feel they have a clear understanding of them. This evaluation cuts across party lines, with majorities of both Republicans (69%) and Democrats (58%) finding the current health care proposals confusing. DO YOU HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF HEALTHCARE REFORM IDEAS? Yes, understand reforms 31% No, they’re confusing 67%"

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/poll_healthcare_090109.pdf?tag=contentMain;contentBody

Anthony Weiner: Obama Hasn't Led On Health Care (VIDEO)
del.ico.us ShareThisThe Huffington Post | Rachel Weiner [Favoritism?]
First Posted: 09- 4-09 01:18 PM | Updated: 09- 4-09 01:45 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/04/anthony-weiner-obama-hasn_n_277640.html

9/4/2009 5:48:06 PM

I said this in the other healthcare thread yesterday b/c I thought it was the one we were using now, but since this one has taken over again, I'll share those thoughts here for what its worth:




Some images for pro-health care reform rallies today in Charlotte & Raleigh.





So this month in health care opened with the right wing yelling at town halls, and then the left wing got involved and started doing there thing too, boycotting whole foods for being perceived as anti-health care reform, getting labor & other left leaning groups up in arms about it & threatening to turn their support away from democrats who don't support health care reform, getting the AARP on the left wings side, and doing their own rallies largely focused on the end of the month.

In terms of sheer noise level I think the right won the early part of the month & the left won the end part of the month, and I think the noise coming from both sides was in many ways misinformation, and the only take away for representatives from the recess is that people are very divided on the issue, but the recess is over early next week. I've been disappointed with the left & the right during this recess.

What do you all think the take away message form the recess is for representatives?

9/4/2009 6:53:19 PM

^ No way, dude. I'm not going to let you just breeze over the important points in my post with some rah-rah Obama images.

Address this:

1. Obama is being forced--finally--to come up with his own health-care legislation.

September 4, 2009
Sources: White House drafting health care bill - CNN

Quote :

"WASHINGTON (CNN) – CNN has learned that the White House is quietly working to draft health care legislation after allowing Congress to work on its own for months."

http://tinyurl.com/nbjuog

2. One primary reason for this is that people are confused about the various helath-care proposals.

September 1, 2009

Quote :

"Two in three Americans call the health care plans under discussion in Congress confusing; only 31% feel they have a clear understanding of them. This evaluation cuts across party lines, with majorities of both Republicans (69%) and Democrats (58%) finding the current health care proposals confusing. DO YOU HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF HEALTHCARE REFORM IDEAS? Yes, understand reforms 31% No, they’re confusing 67%"

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/poll_healthcare_090109.pdf?tag=contentMain;contentBody

3. Despite Obama's plentiful rhetoric, he has not led on the health-care issue--and it's not just Republicans who are saying this.

Anthony Weiner [D-NY]: Obama Hasn't Led On Health Care (VIDEO)
del.ico.us ShareThisThe Huffington Post | Rachel Weiner [Favoritism?]
First Posted: 09- 4-09 01:18 PM | Updated: 09- 4-09 01:45 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/04/anthony-weiner-obama-hasn_n_277640.html

[Edited on September 4, 2009 at 7:18 PM. Reason : .]

9/4/2009 7:07:06 PM

Quote :

"^ No way, dude. I'm not going to let you just breeze over the important points in my post with some rah-rah Obama images. "

You'll note the very first thing I said in my post is that "I said this in the other healthcare thread yesterday b/c I thought it was the one we were using now, but since this one has taken over again, I'll share those thoughts here for what its worth"


That means my comments pre-dates your post and that is the reason it doesn't directly respond to anything said after that fact.

9/4/2009 7:40:49 PM

Quote :

"In terms of sheer noise level I think the right won the early part of the month & the left won the end part of the month, and I think the noise coming from both sides was in many ways misinformation, and the only take away for representatives from the recess is that people are very divided on the issue, but the recess is over early next week. I've been disappointed with the left & the right during this recess."

I am inclined to agree with this assessment, and even take it one notch further when I'd argue that it feels like the public discourse isn't even one of debate. We have two groups pretty much shouting past one another that don't even agree upon the same fundamental facts. More so, it feels like the major push for legislation now now now is because of the fact that the Democrats enjoy a tactical advantage and thus do not necessarily need to compromise much, save for within their own ranks.

I feel like the debate reflects this - particularly in the very vocal left-wing reaction to such items as John Mackey's Op-Ed, where merely posing an alternative proposal somehow makes him "anti-reform." Which again seems to color the debate very clearly as one of majoritarian shoving - in other words, we're not interested in alternative plans, we're interested in jamming one plan as hard and fast through Congress, or at least as much of it as we reasonably can, and to hell with anyone with alternative ideas.

Hence, where is there really room for debate? It practically invites a shouting match. Death panels and other right-wing apocrypha aside, it's not exactly hard to see where some of the anger on the part of the opposition is coming from - where in particular has honest debate actually been embraced? Again, I point back to Mackey - an example of an honest, good-faith counter-proposal, and the reaction was to simply shout him down without even giving his ideas any further consideration. So where exactly has honest debate been welcomed to the process? Democrats are pretty much bent upon using their control of Congress and the presidency to the fullest, with little interest in much else. The question is simply how much is "too much" for representatives in more conservative districts.

9/4/2009 8:04:03 PM

^^ Um. . .great. Now, would you mind addressing my post?

[Edited on September 4, 2009 at 8:05 PM. Reason : .]

9/4/2009 8:04:39 PM

^My post came first & from another thread, I don't see how that obligates me to respond to any particular unrelated post, but I'll give it a go.

Quote :

"DO YOU HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF HEALTHCARE REFORM IDEAS? Yes, understand reforms 31% No, they’re confusing 67%""

I'm not surprised, some people have been spreading a lot of rumors out there like Death Panels, and saying things like Obamacare & The Bill, as if there was A Single Bill. These numbers make perfect sense given the misinformation out there.

9/4/2009 8:26:24 PM

^ These were the points I wanted addressed--and I think you know this--I even numbered them:

Quote :

"1. Obama is being forced--finally--to come up with his own health-care legislation. 2. One primary reason for this is that people are confused about the various health-care proposals. 3. Despite Obama's plentiful rhetoric, he has not led on the health-care issue--and it's not just Republicans who are saying this."

So none of the problems with the health-care debate can be attributed to Obama's actions or lack thereof?

Quote :

"Since the start of June, Obama has given 25 speeches and statements alone on his health care plan, according to Mark Knoller of CBS News, who keeps a detailed log of presidential activities. And that doesn't include a battery of interviews on the topic."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h41_nI62pJPgQkZmhe7A8FCQUDyAD9AGNNF00

Folks are suddenly going to "get it" this coming week because of one more Obama speech?

9/4/2009 11:55:07 PM

My post was a old repost from another thread that fell by the wayside that was originally posted at least a day before yours (although the repost in this thread did happen to fall right after your post). Despite my making it explicit that this was just sharing something old from another health care thread you misunderstood it to be an inadequate response to your post above it.

Upon your insistence I responded to your post above it. You are now telling me that was the incorrect post to respond to, and throwing in some rolly eyes? Yeah, so I'm done being directed where to post.

I think the health care reform argument has some merits, but I have never been its champion & I stayed out of the argument for some time, and at times haven't been pleased by the plans out there. I only got into the health care debate originally in response to & to say that I think one side yelling down another at a town hall discussion with a representative was an unhealthy thing to do in a democracy (although I was certainly fine with anti-health care reform opinions being shared & protests happening) so long as people weren't bullying other constituents in to not being able to talk to or listen to their representative. I do think the gov can do some things right & can create positive change in the world (recognizing that neither the left or the right actually stand for small government, my goal is effective government with values I share), but I don't know if health care reform is one of those things that gov can do right. As I said earlier in this thread "I've been disappointed with the left & the right during this recess."

Just because I'm on the left, I haven't been an "Obamacare" advocate" and I would rather you not try to peg me as being obligated to respond to your anti-Obama concerns b/c I made a comment unrelated to your anti-Obama concerns that you mistook as related. There are areas where I disagree with Obama & I don't feel obligated to defend him on every issue. I voted for him because he represents me much better than McCain-Palin (& better than Bush ever did), but I don't feel like that means I have to be carrying his banner all the time even if you would like to insist that I do. Why try to force me into Obama's corner on this? Be careful or you may get your wish!

And feel free to reread what I said, and see if there is anything there that should obligate me to defend Obama against accusations you are making:

Quote :

" So this month in health care opened with the right wing yelling at town halls, and then the left wing got involved and started doing there thing too, boycotting whole foods for being perceived as anti-health care reform, getting labor & other left leaning groups up in arms about it & threatening to turn their support away from democrats who don't support health care reform, getting the AARP on the left wings side, and doing their own rallies largely focused on the end of the month. In terms of sheer noise level I think the right won the early part of the month & the left won the end part of the month, and I think the noise coming from both sides was in many ways misinformation, and the only take away for representatives from the recess is that people are very divided on the issue, but the recess is over early next week. I've been disappointed with the left & the right during this recess. What do you all think the take away message form the recess is for representatives?"

"Folks are suddenly going to "get it" this coming week because of one more Obama speech?"

As for this part, I think actually having a "the bill" since people on all sides, but especially on the right, are already referring to the several bills & ideas out there as "the bill" will certainly help make things more concrete and easier to grasp. I don't think that will make people necessarily suddenly "get it" but its definitely something that needs to happen to at least reign in the misinformation out there & move the debate forward.

[Edited on September 5, 2009 at 12:59 AM. Reason : .]

9/5/2009 12:57:53 AM

^ Fair enough. I just wanted to read your thoughts on the matter.

Quote :

"You are now telling me that was the incorrect post to respond to, and throwing in some rolly eyes? Yeah, so I'm done being directed where to post."

FWIW, the rolly eyes were for Obama--not you.

[Edited on September 5, 2009 at 1:07 AM. Reason : .]

9/5/2009 1:03:55 AM

I stand corrected (on that part).

9/5/2009 1:05:22 AM

This video presents a decent argument for not having health insurance so tied to employment.

9/5/2009 3:03:03 AM

Al Franken is seriously the most rational person in the Senate.

Here he is talking to teabaggers:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/04/franken-calms-down-health_n_277687.html

9/5/2009 7:49:41 AM

Regarding the pictures, that's some real grassroots rallying going on isn't it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizing_for_America

Quote :

"Organizing for America is a community organizing project of the Democratic National Committee"

9/5/2009 8:15:49 AM

Quote :

"that's some real grassroots rallying going on isn't it?"

No, you can clearly see the bus in the picture. That senior rally/protest at the NC GOP HQ that NPR reported on may have been grassroots. Some of the events organized on facebook and by the various progressive blogs in the area, while small, were definitely grassroots. But my reason for posting those pictures was going to my point of:

Quote :

"So this month in health care opened with the right wing yelling at town halls, and then the left wing got involved and started doing there thing too, boycotting whole foods for being perceived as anti-health care reform, getting labor & other left leaning groups up in arms about it & threatening to turn their support away from democrats who don't support health care reform, getting the AARP on the left wings side, and doing their own rallies largely focused on the end of the month. In terms of sheer noise level I think the right won the early part of the month & the left won the end part of the month, and I think the noise coming from both sides was in many ways misinformation, and the only take away for representatives from the recess is that people are very divided on the issue, but the recess is over early next week. I've been disappointed with the left & the right during this recess."

My point was about relative noise levels through out the recess by the left & the right, and how I wasn't particularly happy about either sides way of going about things.

9/5/2009 11:41:10 AM

Something really surprises me about the Republican "outrage" over healthcare reform, more aptly providing universal healthcare. It seems that it's always someone on the right who is the first to stand up to champion their myopic "humans-first" causes at the expense of everything else. You would think they'd love to have healthier, longer living humans that can continue to breed, shop at Wal-Mart and pillage our environment. So either they are being disingenuous or their prevailing position is simply "got mine, fuck you".

9/10/2009 10:15:58 AM

I wrote David Price today to tell him that if the bill doesn't have a public option that allows any citizen to opt-in, he shouldn't vote for it if he wants my vote in the next election.

9/10/2009 10:19:26 AM

I wrote him 2 weeks ago and pretty much said the opposite.

The poor guy is damned if he does, and damned if he doesnt

[Edited on September 10, 2009 at 10:25 AM. Reason : dsfa]

9/10/2009 10:24:56 AM

Yes, but you wouldn't have voted for him anyway, so.....

9/10/2009 10:30:38 AM

I guess you're assuming I vote straight ticket. Only morons vote straight ticket.

9/10/2009 10:36:10 AM

Quote :

"Yes, but you wouldn't have voted for him anyway, so....."

And you will vote for him under any possible circumstances. What exactly is your point, aside from being disingenuous?

9/10/2009 12:13:42 PM

Actually, I won't. I would abstain or vote third party.

9/10/2009 12:14:48 PM

Maybe someone already touched on this

But why do the same people who are so anti union are so pro associations when it comes to negotiating power with insurance companies for lower rates?

9/10/2009 3:19:49 PM

Woo, not reading 30 pages of this thread - hope this was not posted already.

http://guthealthcare.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

Good read for those interested in learning more about this issue at a more theoretical level, and apart from the political screaming.

9/10/2009 6:03:25 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/10/AR2009091002090_2.html?hpid=topnews

i find this gay. they are saying the 17th now.

9/11/2009 1:14:44 AM

Anecdote: a friend of mine has recently been diagnosed with a brain tumor. She has insurance with BCBS (state employee), but her benefits are already capped out for the year, primarily from the chemotherapy that doctors believe caused the brain tumor. So, since she can't afford brain surgery on her own, she has to wait until January 1st to have her fucking brain tumor operated on.

Thank god she doesn't live in some awful socialist country where she'd have to wait for health care, am I right?!?

9/12/2009 12:01:30 PM

but but but but.......sdfsadfsdalfkjlksjalkjfasdf

9/12/2009 2:02:31 PM

^^ it’s her own fault for not properly saving her money up, or getting better health insurance.

9/12/2009 2:03:57 PM

crazy fest in DC this weekend looks, well, crazy

9/12/2009 4:37:13 PM

set em up for pictures

9/12/2009 4:38:41 PM